Jump to content

Standing Starts - In or Out of 2010 ?


D Algozine

Recommended Posts

In the past in the Mid-Atlantic region we have done standing starts with the full big bore field. I have even seen stock cars do them. We have flaggers(called bookler flaggers) line up on top of the front stretch wall with yellow flags. There are probably 15 or 20 of them. If there is a problem, such as a wreck or stalled car in their assigned rows, they throw their yellow. Every flagger behind that point throws their flag as well. These are not true yellow flags, but warning flags. The race is still on, but the drivers are aware of a problem ahead of them. If this is done in other regions, sorry I mentioned it. We used to do a bunch of standing starts. We have cut way back on them in the past couple of years, and I don't know why. We never had any major issues that I am aware of on a standing start. I love them!

 

By the way I run a Quartermaster 8.5" extreme v single disc clutch. It has a solid hub. I used to run a sprung hub, and it was obvious that it was getting beat up. I haven't had problems with the solid hub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 82
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • King Matt

    11

  • robbodleimages

    11

  • kbrew8991

    5

  • Aaron B

    5

I am not sure F1 does standing starts for the reasons you think they do- it has simply been the norm for most race series in Europe and Canada for a long long time and some US series have adopted it, I don't believe they are going for a "wild" free for all approach, I have done both type of starts..(about 40 combined standing starts in ff1600, f2000, FAtlantic, Touring car, World Challenge GT - and maybe 80 give or take rolling starts) and although the ratio is more rolling - there have been no more incidents proportional either way, I have had a Viper stall right in front of me at Road Atlanta in GT and I've been sixth in line on a rolling start when the row in front of me was 5 car lengths behind the front row at the green! and that was much more frustrating- I have had a mechanical failure on the line at Mont-Tremblant during a standing start and have been 3 rows back in a flubbed rolling start that saw cars from rows back passing me at 40 mph faster than I was traveling.......once again Stuff can happen either way and it makes no matter to me how we start our races, but don't knock one over the other based on claims of carnage for one type over the other.

 

Not so sure of the 10lb clutch thing TJ talked about? I know we used a really teeny tiny trick carbon fiber clutch in the GT Corvette- it never seemed to slip for me? but then again after the start I never used it again so TJ might have a solid on that one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aaron (and Beau), great insight. Hope you don't get flamed for talking about starts in non-AI races. Where did you do standing starts in the FF1600? That would be pretty cool.

 

Take a look at the bad $hit that can happen on a rolling start (about 35 seconds in):

 

http://wedgeracing.com/video/Runoffs%2009%20Start%20-%20Womer%20spin.wmv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

This is about 100 yards after start/finish at Road America in this year's Runoffs.

 

P.S.: Anyone else notice the new forum title that went up yesterday?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

F1 wants a wild start. The start of an F1 race is part of the pagentry of the event. Its also just about the only time a driver can gain a position or two.

 

Yea, rolling starts can go wrong. I watching three drivers go three wide in the middle thru turn 1 of a 3 hour enduro at Road Atlanta. Thats just silly.

 

Part of it is attitude. There is no question. I would suggest to you that the standing start only plays to the attitude.

 

A good rolling start in NASCAR and Indycar races is not about gaining positions. Its about starting the race. In F1 the standing start often IS the race.

 

Again we go back to what is the goal of our race starts? Are we looking for a chance to jump 4 spots on the grid with a great start or are we looking to get a clean start for our 10-15 lap race?

 

Yea, I am one of the guys that will back out and give a guy the spot. I want to finish the race and load my car on the trailer in one piece more than I want to be 3rd rather than 4th.

At VIR this spring, I watched two ROOKIE drivers go three wide in the center thru t1 and t2.

Both of them ended up wrecked by the end of the weekend as iirc.

 

Wrecks on the start are stupid. Just plain stupid and that should be where we our focus is.

Thats the bottom line. What result do we want from our starts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's been said that if a photograph is taken of a rolling start grid from the flag stand at the moment the green is thrown, it should be indistinguishable from a photo of a standing start taken at the same moment. How often does that happen? Kind of a different issue, but it is relevant to the discussion that rolling starts in club racing so often are total "disasters" from a competition standpoint, if not necessarily from a contact point of view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matt, FF1600 Canadian championship did some standing starts when they were running with the Player's F2000 series races.....yeah I'm old, I was just a youngster then- Rob, you hit it right on- it is all attitude and who your running with- if a guy has it in his head he is going to make 5 spots on the standing start....There Will Be Blood....myself...I am more likely to give up the spot like yourself, I have faith in the AI family that we could pull off the same successful starts standing or rolling and if the standing starts are "more wild" for the 4-5 rabid fans we know of than that could be cool too!

 

P.S. I have always found it easier to jump 4 spots on the rolling starts than the standing ones, it is much easier to take advantage of guys lagging back on a rolling start than it is from a dead dig, ask Rusty and Ryan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not so sure of the 10lb clutch thing TJ talked about? I know we used a really teeny tiny trick carbon fiber clutch in the GT Corvette- it never seemed to slip for me? but then again after the start I never used it again so TJ might have a solid on that one?

 

That's the idea, there is no slip. The stock drivetrain had problems withstanding AI power levels in a sprint race with a rolling start. I built this one to last at AI power levels with a rolling start.

 

I'm not worried about carnage, it wouldn't be the first time I had to take a hammer to the car. I'm worried about breaking drivetrain parts. I went through that crap for an entire season and I have no desire to do it again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"King Matt" P.S.: Anyone else notice the new forum title that went up yesterday?

 

I did.

 

Now that CMC drivers can post here...I've had (2) fairly decent crashes and the worst was from a failed rolling start. Started at the back of the Big Bore pack for the Long Race several years ago. Someone near the front decided they really didn't want to race or fell asleep when the green flew. I was in 4th gear probably doing 100 right on the ass of this really pretty 4th gen that I knew would not fight me for the inside of turn 1 when the cars in front starting bouncing off the pit wall. What happened was the according affect. Cars in back going too fast to miss the slow car. We ended up with 6 or 8 heavily damaged cars and one on the roof. This crash was very similar to the Vintage wreak at Road America a few years ago.

 

Any start can go bad...but...the physics behind a rolling start would suggest that if they do, a bad rolling start is going to be much worse than a bad standing start.

 

Carry on,

 

Sidney

Formerly AI #64, Now CMC#64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This only highlights that start philosophy needs to be established before start type. Can we agree that a safe and clean start is more important than a racy, position swapping start?

 

Until we decide that its more important to get thru turn 1 than it is to make passes in turn 1, it won't matter how we start the races.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This only highlights that start philosophy needs to be established before start type. Can we agree that a safe and clean start is more important than a racy, position swapping start?

 

Until we decide that its more important to get thru turn 1 than it is to make passes in turn 1, it won't matter how we start the races.

 

I don't embrace the "Win it or Bin it" philosophy but, if I can gain an advantage in T1, I'll probably try the pass as long as it isn't very low percentage. This is sprint racing, there isn't a lot of time to wait around and have the race sway in your favor.

 

The key to any good start is people paying attention and doing what they're supposed to do. We had a near miss at Putnam Park at the end of the season. The American Cars got the green and the German cars were straggling along towards the second waving green flag. Griswold was coming out of T8 with the rest of us a couple hundred yards behind and the German cars had not taken the green yet. The race went FCY and thanks to everyone driving in a heads up manner, no one took their car home in a bushel basket.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, if everyone is paying attention and doing their job, the start should be flawless. You're paying a nice chunk of change to come race. Act like you want to do it at the start of the race! Someone screwing around with the starts? One warning a year, then give them the black flag.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sprint race or not, you have to finish to win. Isn't that one of the first things they teach you in comp school? That and your idea of low percentage and someone else's might be the difference between a good race and bushel baskets.

 

We are talking an awful lot about paying attention and doing it right and so forth. We are amateur racers. In NASCAR, professional racers of the highest level, they are not do a rolling start where they are not allowed to pull out of line until they pass the start finish line.

 

Why? Because they don't trust them to do it right. They mandate it with rules.

 

Yet with us...the amateurs...we want few rules and go for the gusto starts because its a sprint race and there's no time to hang around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you think this thread is bad, imagine what it would look like if someone suggested that NASA change the rules on starts to not allow any passing before Start/Finish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

"King Matt" P.S.: Anyone else notice the new forum title that went up yesterday?

 

 

I did.

 

Now that CMC drivers can post here...

 

Sidney, You and your CMC clan can always post here buddy- even the chevy guys. We will just ignore you if we disagree. kidding, kidding. I think a few standing starts would be fine, but it may get difficult with the crossover events with some tracks due to spacing, the pure number of cars during crossover events, flagstands that aren't very far down the straightaway, and 3 split starts in race one race group some times, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want standing starts - go drag racing...

 

I've seen too much parts breakage and starting line mishaps with these starts.

 

My $.02 worth anyways...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want standing starts - go drag racing...

 

I've seen too much parts breakage and starting line mishaps with these starts.

 

My $.02 worth anyways...

 

 

i just went drag racing for the first time last week.. i must say.. cant really compare.. i would like to do standing starts... you cant really slam into the person infront of you at the strip..

 

now if we wanted to do a burn out before the standing start.. then i would say go drag racing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This only highlights that start philosophy needs to be established before start type. Can we agree that a safe and clean start is more important than a racy, position swapping start?

 

Until we decide that its more important to get thru turn 1 than it is to make passes in turn 1, it won't matter how we start the races.

Rob you make an excellent point. That is exactly what should happen with every rule - decide intent first then write language that supports it and is clear and enforceable (nope, not trying to start a tangent here).

 

IMO passes in turn 1 have to be part of the start in sprints, but I'm not going to get all frustrated if that can't be written as long as the intent is to keep the cars as close to contention for passes as possible (e.g. passing after start/finish only may not be something I would support depending on how stalls and other situations are handled). If there is too much gray area just write it one way or the other so its clear - if I only have 10 laps to make passes instead of 11 then I guess I will focus more on qualifying setup.

 

I personally love standing starts. I've had cars stall in front of me on standing starts and found it about the same as dealing with a missed shift on a rolling start - my personal worst start was a rolling where I went from 1st to like 7th and apparently no one behind me had ANY problem with that flub - but that's another story.

Of courser I'm just getting into my first driveline rebuild since I started with the car...maybe after a season of thrashing fragged parts I'll change my mind? Nope, still gonna love standing starts!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. The first thing on my mind during a standing start would be to prepare for the guy that stalls or breaks in front of me. There should be no surprises in that regard. 2. Are you guys using drivelines made of glass? Statistics say someone will break eventually but we're in 3-3200lb cars with 340hp and cold road racing tires. Toyos at that For real??

 

After 4-500 standing starts in the Firebird at the drag strip over the last 7 years I've broke 4 stock axles. 1 shaft, 2 diffs, and a ring and pinion. All were on VHT prepped starting lines, super soft slicks and 6k launches. I couldn't even imagine breaking anything under our circumstances with a well prepared car, we just don't have the power, weight or grip.

 

That said it doesn't matter to me what we do, I won't shed a tear either way. Just don't want everyone to be against something for the wrong reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John's right.

As long as your tires spin (and they will) 99.9% of the time nothing breaks.

I'm against standing starts for safety reasons, very obvious!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man, you guys really need to nut up. We do standing starts here in Texas even in the wet.

To quote the wife of one of our racers .... "This aint grocery shopping Mary Poppins."

 

point being, if your worried about damage, why are you even racing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this is amateur racing and we are supposed to be doing it for fun. in this economy you are seriously asking why people worry about costs? maybe you are different, but i can only afford so much repair on my ride in a season. the last thing i want is for my weekend to end before T1 and for me to miss the next two events waiting to afford repairs.

 

why not just tell everyone to stay home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...