nape Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 As far as I interpret the rules, the "shotgun" rails as you call them are not frame rails and are not part of the shock/strut tower and therefore can be removed. Same with the sheet metal up there. AI has apparently deemed the strut tower to be the piece of sheet metal that the strut mount bolts to, as Declan Kenny's AIX car goes even further and only leaves the piece where the strut mounts and removes the whole upper support. I don't know what an accordian box is, but I've always wondered if Mustang frame rails came like that or people cut a part off. Does anyone have a picture of what the stock frame rail end looks like? I'd love to be able to remove 5-10lbs on the front of my Firebird and replace it with 6" of tube if that's been deemed legal. As far as the tube "through" the frame rail on Lindsey's car, I pitched a bitch about it as well when I first saw the pic. Apparently, the strut tower isn't cut to install that tube. It's actually 3 tubes. One welded to the front of the strut tower, one welded in the strut tower, and one welded rearward of the tower. It was deemed legal when I PM'd JWL about it. As far as fender mods being for tire clearance, all fender mods are for tire clearance. My take on the AI rule book is that it isn't meant to lay out what can be done, they way I look at it is that it's a set of guide lines to see how truely creative you can be as long as you don't try to completely disregard them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 This is NOTHING against Mr. Lindsey, but how exactly do you go about proving that's three pieces of tubing? If you cut two holes the proper sizing, inserted the tubing, and seam welded it from both sides, how can you tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 AI has apparently deemed the strut tower to be the piece of sheet metal that the strut mount bolts to, as Declan Kenny's AIX car goes even further and only leaves the piece where the strut mounts and removes the whole upper support. would love to see a picture of that! didn't the old rules specifically mention NOTHING could pass through the area of the shock tower as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Guys, I'm working up a concise response to all of Dave's (and others) questions and we'll start a "Tech Bulletin" section to start listing these all out. Most of Dave's questions have a "yes" response, as TJ and others have mentioned, the AI rules are intentionally left open to allow for some creativity & ingenuity. So things like "modifying the wheel opening" and "lightening interior body panels" have all been open season for years and we're not about to change that. Similarly, that top "shotgun rail" the fender bolts to has been modified for years for tire clearance and it is not considered a part of the frame. However, there are 1 or 2 concerns that I do have and areas that I don't think we want folks to explore into....and we need to clarify that, spell it out as to what is allowed and what is not and prevent future builds doing something that may be against the intent. Those 1 or 2 concerns are areas that I know many folks have already explored, so we need to put some thought into this. Soooo...I've got word out to the AI Leadership Team to take a look at these, we'll convene and I'll get you a response real soon. Stay tuned.... -=- Todd Covini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 would love to see a picture of that! didn't the old rules specifically mention NOTHING could pass through the area of the shock tower as well? Ask and ye shall receive. Another advantage for chassis that have an available SLA... As far as passing through the shock tower, that's what I said to JWL. He said that technically, it doesn't pass through the tower. I can't remember his wording, but basically there's a bar installed in the strut tower and also one on each side. Justifying your interpretation of the rules is 90% of figuring out an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Come on, Todd. Don't have a cow, it's AIX, aka "American Iron X parts of a stock tub". The X still hasn't been filled in because no one has figured out how many parts you have to keep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 As far as passing through the shock tower, that's what I said to JWL. He said that technically, it doesn't pass through the tower. I can't remember his wording, but basically there's a bar installed in the strut tower and also one on each side. Justifying your interpretation of the rules is 90% of figuring out an advantage. The word "technically" has been used several times to describe mods on a few select cars. I find it annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 In regards to Declan's car. I was told by JWL, that on my S197 that I had to keep the oe sheet metal that made up the cowl box for the wipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 The OEM wiper bucket issue was hashed out years ago and it was deemed that must remain intact as it is part of the firewall. At least two cars that I know of (the old Borton car and the S197 the Barry Kline built) both had to reinstall that section to be legal. Looking at the Declan car, wow, I would have never guessed those shock towers would have been deemed legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 If that shock tower is legal, just allow tube frames in AIX and be done with it. It'll be cheaper and easier for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Justifying your interpretation of the rules is 90% of figuring out an advantage. Apparently, "we bought the car that way from 'X' so it has to be legal right?" seems to work as well. Or "that was 'Y's old car, why would he sell it if it were illegal?".... A lot of this is the individual interpretations of each regional director...or lack thereof. Now that I know the shotgun rails are open...I'm a little pissed that an idea I had two years ago got shotdown. It would have made maintaining the aero on the car a TON easier. That AIX photo is pure sex...(nice intake by the way! )but how far is that from AI??? Aren't the rules essentially the same for both classes regarding that area of steel? One would assume the removal of the rest of the steel was for "exhaust clearance...right?" When rules are left REALLY open....you end up where AI currently is. Confusing and discombobulated. Can't wait till ST2 is 10 years old and see where those rules are at....probably will be banging my head again with that one too! LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 When rules are left REALLY open....you end up where AI currently is. Confusing and discombobulated. Where is AI currently? I still see it as the same class I joined 4 years ago, it's just that people are starting to open their eyes and realize what is allowed by the rules. I loved looking at Lindsey's car at Nationals because it was ideas I'd had since I started building my car and someone put them to steel. What are you confused about? Just be mad that you already sold the plasma cutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Not missing the plasma cutter. It usually made a bigger mess than anything. Prefer $40 angle grinder and $2 cut-off wheels and sawzall! Makes more noise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I have seen guys not be allowed to run because of the cowl bucket mod. and three pit stalls down there's a car running with the bucket removed. Just one of many reasons I have chose ST1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I have seen guys not be allowed to run because of the cowl bucket mod. and three pit stalls down there's a car running with the bucket removed. Just one of many reasons I have chose ST1 Apparently you are in the same boat as I was and never got the memo from "management" that "this is all just for fun so we will allow illegal cars to run and keep up car counts". It's a CMC thing being applied to AI. Remember the E-cam BS in Kali a few years ago? Same principle of allowing illegal cars so results can be skewed. Personally I thought this was racing, not the YMCA where "everybody is a star" and rules are ignored....? more salt....old wounds.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 First warning, Matt. Uncalled for rhetoric. Both AI & CMC have been pretty up front over the years that in some instances we've allowed folks to fun run or allowed a non-compliant part for a limited time if it makes sense in the Director's judgement. This isn't SCCA or NASCAR and we likely won't send you home packing on Saturday morning for a minor infraction...but there is an expectation that you'll eventually comply. Opinions are one thing, but intentially stirring the pot is another. -=- Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I don't know what an accordian box is, but I've always wondered if Mustang frame rails came like that or people cut a part off. Does anyone have a picture of what the stock frame rail end looks like? TJ, Here's a pic of the front end on our car when we were trying to fix the Autobahn crash damage. There is a circle around the "accordion box" There is a telescoping shock that is on the bumper support that inserts and bolts to the flange. Sorry the pic is huge. I don't have the originals here at work to resize one. Here's a link to the rest of the rebuild. There are more pics of the, mostly, factory frame rails, fender rails (shotgun rails) and such. http://teamubr.com/?p=184 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Jim, Those bumper supports/accordian boxes are different on different cars. The foxes have an insert that goes into that box. The SN95 and S197 cars have an integral accordian with no insert. There is not a clear rule on if those are part of the frame or if those may be lopped off...and many have already done it. Different interpretations from different folks. Continuous improvement. We'll clarify going forward.... Let's keep it constructive -=- Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 First warning, Matt. Uncalled for rhetoric. -=- Todd Rhetoric? It was in black in white posted by Al Fernandez till someone deleted it.... Just figured it would be good for racers to UNDERSTAND where director's decisions are coming from before they jump in chin deep because this "ideal" is NOT something that is printed in the "guidelines"..... So how many warnings to do I get...? LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 So how many warnings to do I get...? LOL!!! By my count, you have been given too much leeway already... Richard P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnight Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 So how many warnings to do I get...? LOL!!! By my count, you have been given too much leeway already... Richard P. Agreed. I thought he posted that he was fed up and was going to quit posting. I sighed a sigh of relief, but then he kept posting. I don't know the guy, but would appreciate if he'd contemplate whether a post brings value before posting. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raznkane Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Jim,Those bumper supports/accordian boxes are different on different cars. The foxes have an insert that goes into that box. The SN95 and S197 cars have an integral accordian with no insert. There is not a clear rule on if those are part of the frame or if those may be lopped off...and many have already done it. Different interpretations from different folks. Continuous improvement. We'll clarify going forward.... Let's keep it constructive -=- Todd I will need to know about these when it is determined. I am doing a build from the shell up and these were not on the my car. As info, 1997 Mustang, NO log book. I have been asking the SE director and SE tech guy questions during this build to stay inline with their direction for AI. Is this something I need to run by them as I have been doing or does it need to come from you , Todd? If it is determined that I must have these, would there be another solution besides trying to find the factory part? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunter Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Well on my build I cut them off... My car is a fox body 88, and the ends of the two frame rails tie directly into the radiator hoop and headlight buckets. If you look at them closely, you can see the two frame rail boxed channels, as they run forward of the K-member and shock towers, go from a 4 sided box to a 2 sided box - the top and bottom "walls" of the box tube (frame rail) stop, with each side rail continuing forward for another 1/4" or so. These two side rails are welded into the whole headlight/radiator box vertical structure and perpendicular (to the frame rails) structure. In my opinion (not that it matters at all!) and based on what I determined by looking at other builds, I judged the frame rails to terminate where they tie into the radiator box structure. From 7:3... The entire tub, floorpan, firewall, and frame assemblies including the cowl and windshield frame must remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated. “Frame” and “frame rail” are defined as the parallel boxed metal rails running the length of the car that form the basis of the unibody or frame. 7.3.1 Radiator core supports may be removed or modified but frame rails must remain intact. I judged the parts removed from the nose of my car to be "radiator core supports" and removed them. Coming soon to a track near you .... Check out my pimp daddy double wing! Max downforce yo! Disclaimer: Not my car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Ed, Nice looking front support setup. When we get to the point of having to shave weight (need 150 lbs of ballast now) you gave me some great ideas. Now those bottom 2 pics... I wouldn't have big enough ones to show up at a NASA event with that thing on the trailer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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