2010 Rules Clarifications and Feedback Thread

[Raznkane]

I like the way that is done on the front , Ed! Hopefully I will be able to do similar when I get to that point. I was just looking where the bump box was attached and it looks like it was spot welded where the radiator support meets the frame rails.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2010 by Guest

[nape]

Here's a link to the rest of the rebuild. There are more pics of the, mostly, factory frame rails, fender rails (shotgun rails) and such. http://teamubr.com/?p=184

 

Jim, thanks for the pics. I'd interpret it as you can remove the brackets in question since they are spot welded to the core support.

 

Just another advantage the Mustangs have in this series!

[UBR]

Jim, thanks for the pics. I'd interpret it as you can remove the brackets in question since they are spot welded to the core support.

 

Just another advantage the Mustangs have in this series!

I'm not even sure those boxes are spot welded.. The drive side fell off when we pulled off the bumper cover.

 

And Mustangs don't need any extra advantages. Being faster than anything GM makes is more than enough.

[DHarsay]

Alright, long post coming up, bringing this up from the dead... as I really wish that I had a clear vision of what the actual "rules" allow. What we go by is basically what has been allowed or deemed legal with existing cars. That works for me to a point. I really wish there was more clarity in writing, and I've worked with Todd on that a little bit, and I wanted to share.

 

I have a large print copy of the rules printed out on 11X17 sheets with highlighting to make sure I get it right.. and it's tough. Wish there were more definitions at the very least to clarify.

 

Many of you are in the race season mode, and probably couldn't care less at this point. I wish I was there with you. Here's where I am:

 

 

So here is my original question, with eight specific items... and most of it is admittedly fishing for logic, and urging for general clarification and direction, by asking "show me where it says in the rules". Some if not all of those 8 questions, can go either way if not forbidden the way the rules are specifically written (although intent and accepted car specimen say otherwise)... as discussed here before.

 

I've read the rules many times over the years, and watched things develop. Director's cut is great. There are a couple of things I struggle with regarding the wording of the AI rules... it seems like over the years I have figured it out by looking at all the cars out there, but when I'm actually reading the rules, I wish it was clearer.

 

The most significantly questions for me are the ones dealing with modifying factory sheetmetal. This falls into two categories it seems.

 

The first one is the section 7.3 "Frame" - it talks about tub/floorpan/firewall/cowl/windshield-frame... which may be a misleading title for this section, but the intent is fairly obvious... and there are definitions to clarify what means what... got it, and unless it's spelled out, it's not allowed, says so right there very clearly.

 

No problem so far, but it's a segway into the next section, and read along with me on the next section, 7.4 "Body/Interior". Seems pretty straight forward at first, no definitions needed here perhaps, and none are given. Seems all of the structural metal parts outside of the ones covered under "Frame". It talks about a few things that can be changed, and that seems to be clear. The term "Body Panels" is used throughout, and I'm starting to wish this was a little bit more defined. It mentions that body panel lightening is not allowed in AI. Acid dipping is straight forward, but body panel lightening? Hmmm. Maybe it means the the primary structure? But wait, much of that is covered under 7.3 "Frame" isn't it... so we're left with the remainder... the rest of the structural paneling, or body panels, interior structural panels and components. It mentions "All Interior Modifications Allowed"... okay, that makes sense... but then it goes to say including dashboard and wiring? Wait a minute. Is that the kind of stuff "Interior" stuff we're talking about? ... then "provided that they don't conflict with other rules"... uhm... what about the interior "body panel lightening is not allowed in American Iron Class"? So what can I remove or modify here exactly? What is meant by lightening? What does "Interior" mean exactly? AIX it mentions unrestricted in body panel modifications... what about AI? What are the restrictions? Do all the people who install lightening holes or cut away part of the interior paneling or structure, are they allowed to do this? I would say yes, just look at the extremes, look at the Paul's Automotive car (running AI this year), most of the interior paneling is gone. And the Wilson/Tone car, there are dozen's of lightening holes, b-pillar is gone, much of the interior structure is gone... Pat Lindsey's car, actually a lot of the well thought out cars. Is that what it means by all interior modifications are allowed? How about sheetmetal forward of the strut tower? Many have removed this. How about the doors? I've seen parts of them trimmed for access... great idea, but is this allowed per the rules?

 

Then there are the front fenders... first it mentions "free as to venting, louvers, and other modifications"... then it mentions "may modify wheel openings for the purpose of tire clearance only... some cars have wheel opening modifications for aero, can this be done?

 

Alright, in list format, here are some questions I have regarding sections 7.3 and 7.4, on a 2000 model year Mustang; some of it is common practice as many of you will notice, but it's not clear to me with regard to the rules:

 

1. Can the interior sheet metal stuff be removed? Talking about a lot of the double wall stuff towards the upper rear, around the decklid too... can this be trimmed? Can the passenger door opening perimeter be trimmed also?
   
2. Can I remove the trim panels surrounding the a-pillar_roofline_rear-quarter-windows? And do a little body work to clean up the holes and indentions left behind? And trim the roof panel pinchwelds a bit?
   
3. Can I remove the B-pillar inner structure?
   
4. Can I install lightening holes in footwell area below the A-pillar?
   
5. Can I install lightening holes in the rear panel on the aft side of the trunk?
   
6. Can the firewall pinchwelds be trimmed and seam welded to clean them up a bit? (specifically in the front wheel well area, and cowl area)
   
7. Can the door entry threshold AKA rocker panel pinchwelds be trimmed and seam welded to clean them up a bit? Or is this part of the floorpan which cannot be modified?
   
8. Can the front bumper support "accordian box" be removed from the core support and the frame rail or is it considered part of the frame rail?
   
9. Can I modify the shape of the wheel openings to cover the front tire better on the forward side, and using the opposite method relieve the high pressure air on the aft side?

 

Anyway, I've asked for clarifications on a few of these back in November, with regular follow ups. Hope some of you can show me the way around these questions.

 

Todd, I hope you don't mind me posting this... just wanted to provide a status of where this is...

 

So at the beginning, here's where we were with private messages:

 

Let me bounce this off the other dirctors and get back to you soonest.

-=- Todd

PS- Motor plates are allowed.

 

Working from your posted questions, I'd be careful of #6 & #8 but the others seem to be ok by me.

Let's see what the peanut gallery says and then I'll consult with the Leadership Team AGAIN on #6 & # 8 to see if we can get you a good answer. It's going to be tough to nail those 2 down, but you deserve a solid response.

-=- Todd

 

If you get a chance, I would like to understand what part of the rules allows those items, so I can have a better idea of how they are interpreted. Also, more specifics for what is meant by "body panel lightening" and what the definition of interior is in the context of 7.4.8.

 

Also, if you would like suggestions on language to clarify such things, let me know, and I'll add my 2 cents. I see 4 different ways of addressing any modification, once the proper definitions are in place. One is not allowing any modifications for a certain area. Two, is allowing any modifications, removal, replacement for a certain area. Three, is not allowing modifications, but listing very specific exceptions of what/how can be modified. Four, is allowing any modifications, and listing specific exceptions for what cannot be modified. There's way too much mix-and-match in the rules there, which makes things complex... and there are a lot of gaps.

 

LOL...you're right. Wish we had this conversation back in October!

 

For now, suffice to say that there has been a purposeful "open rules" mentality in most of those areas but I agree that it just opens things up for guys to do things that raise some eyebrows, and then be disappointed or annexed.

 

give me a few days this week to respond publicly (I'll post that). If you want, send me some referenced proposed language and I'll let you know if I agree or not.

 

Most of your items are ok...but I'm sensitive to the a) bumper supports b) cowl area c) door opening. Most other areas you've listed have traditionally been ok...but we need to be more descriptive.

 

Send me something.

 

Alright... so I did. I would like to point out that what I sent was 90%-95% of how I understand the rules are written or should be written, and I did add a few things to be specifically allowed. Just a rough draft of my take on how to clarify things, and hopefully I'm not causing too much trouble here.

 

Here's a "rough" draft of a suggestion for sections 7.3 and 7.4 to organize and clarify, 95% along the lines of what everyone is doing... and along the lines which we have discussed. Not a lot of changes really, but to me it makes a lot more sense this way. I don't really see changes, but more of a clarification.

 

7.3 Frame and primary vehicle structure

This section includes the frame rails, entire tub, floorpan, rocker panels, firewall, frame assemblies, cowl, shock towers, strut towers, and windshield frame. These structures may not be removed, relocated, lightened, modified in any way, except as specifically defined in section 7.3.2. The only modifications to these structures allowed must not have a secondary purpose for a modification (i.e. electrical cable passage facilitating suspension clearance). If a modification is not listed it is specifically not allowed.

 

7.3.1 Definitions for the primary vehicle structure

Cowl - Metal structure installed by the factory between the firewall and base of the windshield.

Frame and Frame Rail - Parallel boxed metal rails running the length of the car

Primary Structure – Structures which form the basis of the unibody or frame.

Floorpan - Sheet metal forming the floor and trunk floor of the car.

 

7.3.2 The following are the only modifications allowed to the primary structure

a) To facilitate the addition of safety equipment such as subframe connectors and roll cage bracing (i.e. roll cage may extend through the firewall to strut towers);

b) To facilitate plumbing or electrical access. For AIX only, plumbing shall include intercooler or intake piping, but all air intakes must be mounted outside the cockpit.

c) To facilitate transmission fitment or access.

d) For installation of a fuel cell or fuel tank access. S197 chassis Mustangs may relocate the fuel tank from the rear seat stock location to the trunk area behind the rear axle.

e) For exhaust clearance. This does not allow exhaust components to be run through the firewall, which is not allowed.

f) To facilitate installation of and access to ignition and induction components in 4th generation F-body GM vehicles. Allowed modification is restricted to removal or clearancing of the cowl/wiper bucket area. The cowl and firewall must remain otherwise intact.

g) The floorpan may be modified for the purpose of facilitating the installation of a three-link type suspension. Such modification is limited to a hole being cut in the floorpan to allow the “third link” to pass through the floorpan to the attachment point in the cockpit. All components that intrude into the cockpit must be covered.

h) Rear frame rails may be “notched” for suspension clearance in AIX only.

i) Frame and primary structure may be reinforced and seam welded

j) Bumpers and bumper supports may be removed, but the frame must remain in tact.

k) AIX vehicles may have the rear floorpan between the frame rails removed from the roll cage main hoop rearward, but the frame rails must remain intact and a suitable covering must be in place to provide a bulkhead between the driver compartment and the ground.

l) Radiator core supports may be removed or modified but frame rails must remain intact.

m) The shock towers may be modified to install shock mounts, reinforcements, or spacers but the OEM assembly must remain in place. All cars must have OEM front and rear shock towers in the same location as stock. AI cars must utilize the OEM rear shock towers for rear shock attachment. The OEM rear shock tower must be intact and the shock mount must pass through the original hole in the tower. AIX cars must have OEM shock towers in place and resemble the factory build, but attachment points are free. The shock towers may be modified to facilitate suspension component fitment (i.e. SLA, etc) but must retain the general shape, structure and location as stock.

n) Attachment of camber or caster adjusting devices is unrestricted.

o) Motor plate may be added

 

7.3.3 Examples and clarifications

a) Cars may not be “channeled” to raise the floor within the body or lower the body below the frame rails.

b) Firewall may not be relocated for engine setback or any reason

c) Acid dipping or primary structure lightening is not allowed in the American Iron Class.

 

7.4 Body, secondary structure and interior

This section covers body panels and also secondary structure to include fenders, hood, trunk lids, interior panels, roof, quarter panels, brackets, interior components, mirrors, glass, and aerodynamic components. These components may be removed, replaced, lightened, modified except as prohibited in section 7.4.2. Acid dipping or body panel lightening is not allowed in the American Iron Class for components defined in section 7.4.2 unless otherwise noted.

 

7.4.1 Definitions for the body and secondary structure

Dashboard - Factory dashboard, dash facsimile or fabricated panel extending from driver side A-pillar to passenger side A-pillar.

Body Panels – The visible exterior surface panels of the car such as the roof, doors, fenders, quarter panels, bumper covers, hood and trunk lid.

Brackets – Components spotwelded or bolted to the primary and secondary structure for the purpose of retaining non essential components and other parts such as passenger seats, seatbelt mechanisms, hinges, dash, environmental systems, and interior components.

 

7.4.2 The following exceptions and rules must be adhered to regarding modifications to the body panels, interior and the secondary structure

a) EFFECTIVE 2011, AI vehicles only will be required to have some resemblance of a dashboard near the OEM location for a neat/clean appearance. This panel may terminate at the rollcage down tubes and/or be modified to accommodate the rollcage. Material for this dashboard will be unrestricted. Dashboards are not required in AIX.

b) Only OEM (or the equivalent replacement of same type and material) body panels may used in the American Iron Class except as noted in section 7.4.3 AIX vehicles may use composite or other materials for the entire fender or quarter panel, and roof.

c) AI vehicles may modify wheel openings for the purpose of tire clearance, but when viewed from above the top half of the tire must not be visible. The quarter panels must remain unmodified with the exception of the wheel well openings.

d) All vehicles must start a race with a minimum of two functioning brake lights.

 

7.4.3 Aerodynamic Surfaces and Devices

a) Aerodynamic devices including but not limited to under trays, side skirts and diffuser tunnels may not be mounted between the inside edges of the tires between the front and rear axle centerlines. Flat bottoms are expressly prohibited and all splitters must end at the front axle centerline and rear diffuser structures must end within one and one half (1.5) inch rearward of the rear bumper silhouette as viewed from above at the most rearward dimension.

b) Spoilers and air dams are unrestricted but must be fixed for competition. Rear wings or rear spoilers installed on AI cars must not extend rearward more than 1.5 inches beyond the outline of the rear bumper and may not have an airfoil width not to include endplates or bolts greater than 72 inches.

 

7.4.4 Examples and clarifications

a) Composite hoods, hatchbacks, trunk lids, front fenders, fender flares, and bumper covers (fiberglass/carbon fiber, etc.) are allowed within the power to weight ratio constraints of the American Iron Class. Fenders must resemble OEM parts but are free as to venting, louvers, and other modifications.

b) The sheetmetal between the front shock tower and firewall must remain in tact, but may be modified to accommodate allowed components such as the cage extending to the front shock tower and plumbing. Forward of the front shock tower, the sheetmetal and upper structure may be removed or modified, but the frame rails must remain in tact per section 7.3. The “shotgun rails” on mustangs can be modified at the shock tower location, but must remain in tact between the shock tower and the firewall and cowl.

c) AIX cars are unrestricted in all body panel material and modification. AIX cars are allowed to remove rear inner fender metal structures to facilitate tire fitment (“minitub”), but an alternative structure must be put in place to cover the tire and seal the tub assembly.

d) All interior component modifications (including removal of the dashboard and wiring) are allowed provided that the modifications do not conflict with any other rules contained herein or the NASA CCR.

e) Unless otherwise prohibited herein, the interior sheetmetal can be removed as long as the body panels outside surfaces remain in tact. The rear wheel tub must remain in tact for AI cars, but may be modified or replaced for AIX cars.

f) Cars must have neat and clean appearances. All panels must fit properly and be free of sharp edges. All panels must be painted. No vehicle will be able to compete in more than one event with obvious body damage or unpainted body panels.

g) All pinch weld areas may be trimmed and cleaned up.

h) Lexan or polycarbonate material may replace windshield (3/16” min thickness for windshield), rear glass and side windows provided it is installed in accordance with the NASA CCR. Center bracing must be installed in the inside to support the windshield if Lexan is installed. Lexan or other material windows are not allowed on either the driver or passenger front doors but are allowed in all other positions.

i) All holes in floors and firewalls must be sealed according to NASA CCR.

j) Hood and rear deck pins are recommended to secure the hood, trunk lid, or hatchback.

 

There is a lot of language there to consume and I like how you've broken it out.

At this point, I think it's a bit much for a tech bulletin. Perhaps, let's just talk on the phone a bit and if there's a smaller clarification that can be done to make your build a bit more at ease, I'll do that.

 

Otherwise, the verbage approach you've done here is ideal style for the 2011 rules revision season.

 

-=- Todd

 

Sorry once again for the long post, and the timing of this... it's just that every time I pick up a drill or a grinder to move forward, this voice inside my head tells me that even though others have done this or that, I'm going to get hosed. It's a frustrating feeling... maybe I need some Prosac.

 

Alright, long enough break, now back to making dust out of metal

[Raznkane]

So...was anything ever decided for sure on the accordian boxes, do I have to go find a set?

[AJ Hartman]

I've worked in the collision repair business for 8 years now, and those "accordion" boxes are technically call frame rail extensions. So I personally would not consider them part of the frame rail. But I'm not the one that makes the rules, so I would also like clarification on this.