LeMons fever? (and how to get more active NASA enduros?)

[Hornswoggler]

Disclaimer: These are simply some observations and ideas to start some brainstorming. I don't know the answer, just throwing out some suggestions

 

Over the past few years, I can't help but notice the rapidly growing buzz around the 24 hours of LeMons endurance racing. At the same time, I see NASA endurance racing in Midwest/Great Lakes have participation struggles (such as cancelled and/or shortened events).

 

I know there is some overlap in audience, atleast I see NASA members considering LeMons, but is any traffic coming the other way? (from LeMons to NASA?) If not, how can we influence that?

 

For those who don't know, 24 hours of LeMons is endurance racing for beaters costing $500 or less (not including safety equip). The event is about having fun rather than serious competition (atleast that is the impression I get). I know of dozens of "car guys" who may have never turned a lap on a road course who want to join a LeMons team and compete. Seems like looser requirements and lower cost of entry put this event in the crosshairs of "Joe 6-pack". I don't think you need a racing license, or even experience, to compete in LeMons. The number of LeMons events seems to DOUBLE every year.

 

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just looking to understand the appeal and maybe how do we get some of that audience interested in NASA?

 

 

Some questions to get this think-tank going:

- Is it just a coincidence that LeMons is growing and NASA enduros shrinking?

- Is the $500 price tag for LeMons deceptive?

- How cheap can somebody field a team for NASA enduro? (cost comparison)

- Can NASA do anything for a class slower than Spec Miata (E3)? (which is not really all that slow)

- How much different are the LeMons safety requirements than the CCR?

- What about an E4 class for LeMons cars that cross-over? 4.1 of the NASA enduro rules say "Visitors from other sanctioning bodies are encouraged to participate"

- Is there anything we can learn from the success of LeMons in understanding what some might find appealing in endurance racing?

- How do we get more LeMons fans interested in NASA enduros?

 

again, I don't know the answer, just seeing a trend in popularity. Kind of reminds me of Detroit overlooking the imports for a number of years, almost denying their popularity. Would NASA make similar mistakes of the Big 3?

[Sterling Doc]

Wow, great thread/thoughts.

 

Maybe pairing with Chumpcar would be an avenue into this? The competition license issue could be sticky, though

 

I think one of the things that appeals is the community nature of it - a bunch of guys work together on one car - spreads the cost, and builds community/enthusiasm.

 

As you alluded to the fact that it starts cheap/seems cheap may be more important than the reality. Same reason so many buy a cheap car & build it, rather than spending a bit more up front to get a built race car (saving lots of money in the end).

 

Maybe there are lessons in offering car sharing on the HPDE level, or promoting community car builds, sharing in some way.

 

May be hard to match the spectacle of it all without resorting to large helpings of goofiness.

[Trevor57]

lemons doesn't require a HANS, or window nets.

We spent about $5k or so on the whole thing, but it can be done for way less.

We have talked about turning our lemons car into an enduro car if the entries are there.

[Hornswoggler]

It would be hard making the case for looser safety requirements, especially with the LeMons death last year:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/24-hours-of-lemons-death/

[kbrew8991]

They could (should?) class through the PT series and such - maybe an E4 class to include PTF, PTG, PTH would encompass the LeMons cars that deserve to run in a class behind E3 (led by SCCA Improved Touring A cars - faster than SM by a bit).

[Hornswoggler]

to summarize my post:

 

There are groups of "car guys" out there who think LeMons is the greatest thing in the world... how does NASA capture and cultivate that audience? The success of LeMons may be an accident, but reverse-engineering the recipe could be a science!

 

It's easy to shoot ideas down or say "that won't work for us", but the key is how do we come together and capture some of this market? Hell, if GM could get a foot-pedal placement exception for the Solstice (allowing heel-toe, clearly against corporate policy), what can NASA do to appeal to this HUGE audience?

 

LeMons is like the competitor that nobody saw coming, or considered. Well, maybe it is?

[kbrew8991]

some of the circus like atmosphere and very loose rules might be tough to replicate within NASA. If Chumpcar (the spinoff series that is more serious) also takes hold they might be the one to watch closer for ideas

 

Also, from my experiences with the Houston Lemons events - its by and large populated with the "club racing crowd" anyway (SCCA guys, NASA guys, etc, etc)

[richard migliori]

First off: I would not run an enduro with my car in the same contest as a lemons built car. they may be prepared properly, but just won't do it. Like mixing onions and strawberries. I penciled it out last year for a chumpcar event and could build a car for 3090.00 competitively. but it was goig to tangent our NASA enduro efforts. NASA does not promote or really go out of their way for the endurance races. They seem to runit like "just another race"-whatever attitude. ( I have done these long enough that I don't think about it anymore). Basically, new comers don't feel that

invite" to come and have fun and experience something worth it. You have some really good ideas and observations that I hope will bleed off to someone that cares about endurance racing and its future. This year, I have hooked 2 full timers for endurance racing and hope to capture more in trying to promote a national endurance event. (see other thread). Endurance is a "special race" and should be treated accordingly. Should get a major sponsor, more publicity, market the team work atmosphere ( comparable to silliness of lemons, but it is more the guts of competition). Break the stereotype of endurance racing eats up equipment and wears out the car syndrome. IMO, there is no reason why there shouldn't be at least 50 cars at each enduro event. One other thing, dump the bowling trophy and present a trophy that means you really gave it your best for 3 hours or more!

 

RM

[JerryW]

Having done lemons 3 times now I'd say that the biggest draw is the perception that ANYONE can enter and compete. You don't have to have a race license, don't have to even have been on a track before. Safety gear is simpler. And the cars may or may not make it on the Pace Lap let alone anything more.

 

I just don't see NASA relaxing any of it conditions to the level that LeMons allows.

 

That being said it is a total blast with the focus on fun more than competition.

[Tom A]

It would be hard making the case for looser safety requirements, especially with the LeMons death last year:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/24-hours-of-lemons-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Good point. Because we all know that window nets and SFI 38.1 certified Head and Neck devices prevent heart attacks.

[Hornswoggler]

It would be hard making the case for looser safety requirements, especially with the LeMons death last year:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/24-hours-of-lemons-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Good point. Because we all know that window nets and SFI 38.1 certified Head and Neck devices prevent heart attacks.

 

I don't know the whole story, sorry dude. Are you here to enlighten us?

[Tom A]

I don't know the whole story, sorry dude. Are you here to enlighten us?

Maybe you should find out before referencing the death in the same sentence as "loose safety requirements", as if they are related.

 

It made the local papers. There is an overview here: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/lemons-update-team-black-metal-v8olvo-finished-15th/

If you want more info, try this: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Cort+Summerfield

[richard migliori]

Regretfully, the gentleman that was driving apparently had a heart attack and later passed away. but I think he was pronounced dead at the track.

 

 

you can't under any circumstances get lazy when it comes to safety!

 

 

Richard

[kbrew8991]

I didn't have to get a medical exam for my LeMons license...

[Trevor57]

I didn't have to get a medical exam for my TT license...........

[kbrew8991]

didn't need one for HPDE, but its less strenuous and much lower overall level of minimum safety requirements (see also TT which runs under the DE flag)

[richard migliori]

Ken,

Here is something that I see very disturbing as operated here in Nor Cal. Running Hpde 4 and TT in the same run group. You have cars running a "timed COMPETITION" and cars running , " not racing, no trophies and no winners" as quoted by every HPDE instructor I've listened to. What's wrong with this picture? Here is what I see it as, (correct me if I am wrong) I am driving in HPDE and a TT car hits me in any way and causes bodily injury to me... Regardless of the stack of papers I sign at the gate, 1. I entered the track in a non competitive, instructional environment, because that is what I signed up for. 2. The organizing body allowed a group of designated competition cars out on the track at the same time. It would be a good case for gross negligence and void alot of auto insurance policies to boot. I don't know stats or the history of previous accidents with this combined group but it only takes one violent accident and when it does, I couldn't imagine what would happen in the courts. I think NASA has just been lucky to this point. They should separate the 2 groups.

 

RM

[kbrew8991]

Time Trials has been a separate group with every region I've run with so far...

[Trevor57]

Ken,

Here is something that I see very disturbing as operated here in Nor Cal. Running Hpde 4 and TT in the same run group. You have cars running a "timed COMPETITION" and cars running , " not racing, no trophies and no winners" as quoted by every HPDE instructor I've listened to. What's wrong with this picture? Here is what I see it as, (correct me if I am wrong) I am driving in HPDE and a TT car hits me in any way and causes bodily injury to me... Regardless of the stack of papers I sign at the gate, 1. I entered the track in a non competitive, instructional environment, because that is what I signed up for. 2. The organizing body allowed a group of designated competition cars out on the track at the same time. It would be a good case for gross negligence and void alot of auto insurance policies to boot. I don't know stats or the history of previous accidents with this combined group but it only takes one violent accident and when it does, I couldn't imagine what would happen in the courts. I think NASA has just been lucky to this point. They should separate the 2 groups.

 

RM

 

I guess it's a good thing you can run in DE3 then.

[richard migliori]

On the west coast, they run them together, presuming that is the format throughout the NASA family. Apparently it is not, I stand corrected. I had a run in with some bonehead TT driver in DE4 and complained that I held him up because he was trying to cut a fast lap. Said I shouldn't even be on the track, la la la la. The director got out the time sheets and settled it. The times showed I was 5 seconds a lap faster in the whole session. They still shouldn't be run together.

[fabtoys]

It would be hard making the case for looser safety requirements, especially with the LeMons death last year:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/24-hours-of-lemons-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

THe Driver Court died from heart attack and then hit the wall I just passed him right before this happened and saw him go straight into wall no steering nothing.

 

Lemons has stepped up the safety big time .I've raced 7 times and built 5 cars .

[phils944]

great thread. 'specially since i'm the guy Dave B tagged as enduro series director for the RM region. i have a lot to learn...

 

i've done both LeMons and chump in some capacity and have familiarity with their races. i can see them as the more flexible and less expensive alternative to the more organized efforts like NASA. it's a little bit of a revolving door - some get the bug in what we call EJY class racing (enduro junk yard) and may grow towards our more "serious" racing. fewer step back from the organized race and head for the "no rules, just right" mayhem of the Chumps or the "burning man" mentality seen at LeMons. i think we can find a place for these folks that won't interfere with our "serious" racers.

as i have time i'll be investigating these issues along with all things enduro. (please help! )

 

phil

 

soon i'll do my avatar and profile etc...