Rook Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) Figured it might be interesting for HPDE-ers to post up thinking points about their first track experiences. This way, maybe we can keep it all in one thread. At any rate, in no particular order... If possible, get there the night before. I did this, and it saved me TONS of stress. Getting there early allows you to take care of techistration a day early and learn the paddock layout so you're not lost when it counts. Also, it allows you flex-room to deal with incidentals and gives you time to meet people. Be an extrovert. Don't be afraid to walk around and get to know people. Besides, the more people you know, the more capable you'll be of averting any given mechanical catastrophies. (see below...) NASA folks are stupid friendly. Seriously, I've never run into such a group of just straight-up good people. That or they atleast put on a good show and were secretly plotting against me. Having a REALLY loud exhaust is a terrible idea. On my previous car, I had a loud enough exhaust to wake the dead. I loved it..but I'm realizing how hard it'd have been to hear my instructor over it...not to mention the wind noise. Learn how to heel-toe and getting really comfortable with it before getting to the track. FTMFW Braided brake lines and high-temp brake fluid FTW. Stock brake pads FTL Ask me how I know... Trackside maintenance. You'd be surprised how fast you can change out a set of brake pads and extract a stripped lugnut. Do not modify your car much before your first track day if you can help it. You'd be shocked at what it's already capable of. With a stock '07 Mustang I was expecting a lot of the softness I felt under street conditions to result in a highly unstable condition. I noticed, as I'd hypothesized, that as long as everything's under tension (under power, under braking, etc) it was rather stable. It made me a better driver. Having noticed that...I probably won't really change much. Besides, if you do well, it's nice to say that it was YOU and not the CAR. Shuffle steering and hand prepositioning. Do it, but get comfortable doing it on the street, first. Autocrossing. Helps. Especially if you can do some higher speed courses and practice inducing oversteer and understeer. Nothing impresses an instructor more than NOT hitting a wall and killing them because you know how to correct your car's trajectory at speed whilst mildly outside of the traction circle. (You're welcome, Turnip!) Tools/Equipment. It's literally impossible to bring too many tools. If you don't need 'em, someone else will...to include spare nuts/bolts that might be rolling around! A good minimum of equipment to have is anything required to change your brake pads. No matter what, there's a good chance you'll forget SOMETHING. Don't freak out, though. You're surrounded by dudes and dudettes who've been around for a minute or two and are shockingly willing to help you out. (thanks to...I think his name was McGuire, or so his car said...for the spare lugnuts....which brings me to the next point..) Locking lugnuts are for idiots. Period. Ask me how I know... Edited February 18, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 That is a thing of beauty... Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheap_Thrills Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Well said! Although, I don't agree with the loud exhaust one. My instructors always had the intercom headset, so hearing them wasn't an issue. But hearing my engine revs was. With the helmet, wind noise, other loud car noise I was always having to glance at my tach and/or hitting the rev limiter because I was so focused on everything else that overwhelms you on your first HPDE's. It was either install a shift light or get a louder exhaust. Just my preference, louder exhaust helped me. enlighten my ignorance, I get the jist of it...but what is FTW & FTL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 FTW= For The Win (The "MF" is fairly self-explanatory, and not Ned Flanders friendly!) FTL= For The Lose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 Well said!Although, I don't agree with the loud exhaust one. My instructors always had the intercom headset, so hearing them wasn't an issue. But hearing my engine revs was. With the helmet, wind noise, other loud car noise I was always having to glance at my tach and/or hitting the rev limiter because I was so focused on everything else that overwhelms you on your first HPDE's. It was either install a shift light or get a louder exhaust. Just my preference, louder exhaust helped me. enlighten my ignorance, I get the jist of it...but what is FTW & FTL? As a person who's never been able to drive a car he couldn't hear, I couldn't agree more...however, allow me to expand on what I meant by "loud"... By "loud" I specifically mean "cammed 306 with AFR heads, no cats and dumps at 6k rpm through single-chambers" loud. I can't even hear myself think (literally) at that decible level. lol With or without a helmet or headset...inside or outside the car. (*sniff* I miss it so much) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 little bit of noise = good alot = bad - can't hear instructor, yourself, can't go out during quiet hours, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted June 5, 2010 Author Share Posted June 5, 2010 Wanted to throw in a thinking point from my third HPDE, a track day at Laguna Seca...10 minutes from my apartment I learned the importance of having a plan. Which is to say, I "knew it was important" but was finally able to put it into practice and see the benefits first-hand. When I ran Buttonwillow (second HPDE), it was a spur of the moment decision, so I didn't have an opportunity to do any real thinking prior to it. With Laguna Seca I had an opportunity to really sit down, review videos/notes and decide what I wanted to improve. In this case: trail-braking and corner entry speed. I began on the street (at legal speeds, of course) focusing hard on extending my braking zones, in order to build the muscle memory for use at speed. By the third session of the event I had improved my time by some 10 seconds (1:54.9 with some mistakes) and felt that much more balanced in my car. Only downside was that because of the extra lateral force, my back was KILLING me the next day lol. Bottom line: I really felt like I got a lot out of that day because I had greatly improved in one critical spot. Next up will be consistency, as I notice I'm still not hitting the curbing where I want to every time. Have a plan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 I got this Idea from somebody else at my first HPDE, but it has really helped me to be organized. I went in with a notebook and a pen, but the guy I sat next to had a little more. When you go to the classroom, your first priority should be to listen, but you will want to take some notes. Get a Binder with clear slip pockets on the outside. Make a Track Map with numbered turns to slide into the front. (Its usually windy, so this helps) Make a checklist and stick it into the rear of the binder. Get some loose leaf lined paper to take notes during class, write down track conditions, etc. Make Extra copies of the track map so you can write all over them. Print out directions to the track if you don't have a gps. Bring extra copies of the pre-tech form (have one filled out) Print out a copy of the CCR and hi-lite (sp?) anything you think you will want to go over. (Flags, Hand Signals, Etc.) Don't forget the pen/pencil Hopefully this helps somebody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 Shuffle steering and hand prepositioning. Do it, but get comfortable doing it on the street, first.... Not exactly sure what you're describing as "Shuffle Steering" but if you're talking about repositioning your hands on the wheel during a turn...then I'm opposed to this type of driving. (My dad use to call this "oversteering" when I was 8 and learning to drive the pickup on the farm. Imagine steering a boat that's barely moving through the water and you get the picture.) There has never been a track I've raced at that once through the paddock and pit road that I had to reposition my hands in order to make a corner. Keeping your hands at the 9/3 positions guarantees you know which way the tires are pointed at all times. This is critical during a oversteer situation. I'd be surprised if you'll find a video of a Professional driver say racing at LeMans this weekend that EVER moves their hand position. Just my opinion, Sidney Franklin Midwest Region Certified Instructor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krystar Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 I also am opposed to shuffle steering. should be noted that its 9 and 3 spots on the steering wheel when the car is going straight. the physical spot on the steering wheel. not 9 and 3 positions all the time during your turn (which is what shuffle steering says to do) left hand to maintain grip (but not white knuckling) and never leave that spot the steering wheel. right hand should only move to shift gears (which should only happen in relatively straightaways anyway) and comes back to the same spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 Posted by our own Michael Skeen over on Trackpedia (NASA racer turned pro): All of us could find people that support fixed hand position, shuffle-steering, and pre-positioning, that's not the point. They are all tools that you need to have in your bag of tricks. IMO, fixed hands are best in most track driving situations (nearing 180* of steering input). Here's his video that started the thread on Trackpedia (OT, but awesome): I will sometimes preposition my inside hand, but in limited situations, and will always leave the outside hand at 9 or 3 for reference. Shuffle steering is more useful in autocross situations, where more steering lock is required rapidly. Back on topic - steering technique controversy aside, great primer on HPDE - should be made a sticky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tufast Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Rook, Hi its Tufast (Jerry) in the red GenCoupe from CMP snow days. Excellent list for preparation for beginners. I couldn't agree more... & Honda-Junky great advice as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted June 15, 2010 Author Share Posted June 15, 2010 The aforementioned Skeen quote kinda covers it, but here're my 2 cents. I'll say first that I primarily use the 9-3 method on an open track (when you know what's next), and shuffle everywhere else (autoX, street...when you don't always know what's next) I agree, in as much as shuffle-steering not being the "be all, end all" but I do think it's worth practicing and potentially superior under given conditions. It will always depend on the driver/car/terrain. No, you won't see Grand Am or ALMS guys do it...but you will see it in the full fleet of Targa Newfoundland, WRC and D1/US Drift/etc. If you're strapped in to a racecar I can see 9-3 being superior, but having put the time in to experiment, shuffling can help in certain situations in a street car where you're not necessarily held in all that well. I'd also disagree with it being better during an oversteer situation...but I'd have to caveat that to say it's driver/situation dependent. From a physiological standpoint, the position of your arms/musculature at a fully crossed-up 9-3 position doesn't offer the same level of feedback simply because much of the vibration and pressure is muffled by your own structure, as you don't enjoy as much mechanical advantage in that position. I also think that position's more conducive to overcorrection in novices but that's just an opinion, as is everything else. Just opinions...but it's worked for me. Shuffle steering and hand prepositioning. Do it, but get comfortable doing it on the street, first.... Not exactly sure what you're describing as "Shuffle Steering" but if you're talking about repositioning your hands on the wheel during a turn...then I'm opposed to this type of driving. (My dad use to call this "oversteering" when I was 8 and learning to drive the pickup on the farm. Imagine steering a boat that's barely moving through the water and you get the picture.) There has never been a track I've raced at that once through the paddock and pit road that I had to reposition my hands in order to make a corner. Keeping your hands at the 9/3 positions guarantees you know which way the tires are pointed at all times. This is critical during a oversteer situation. I'd be surprised if you'll find a video of a Professional driver say racing at LeMans this weekend that EVER moves their hand position. Just my opinion, Sidney Franklin Midwest Region Certified Instructor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 A few tips of the top of my head after doing this stuff for going on 10 years... 1. The tool or item you leave at home or forget is the one you're going to need! This is why everyone progresses from driving to the track to the full tow ring and enclosed setup. 2. Getting there the evening prior to the event and teching in is the way to go 100% 3. Loud exhaust is cool for drag racing and going to car shows... for road racing it gets annoying and I like to be able to hear my engine/tires/car so I can listen to what it's telling me. Now zero noise is no good, but too much noise is my prime complaint about our Panoz w/ sidepipes.... and this is after replacing the glasspacks w/ Flowmaster 50s.... still louder than I like. 4. As a novice resiste the urge to modify your car.... lear to drive it first. Focus on safety mods first. 5. Stickey tires make your car faster, they don't make you a better driver 6. A poperty fitting race seat is the single most important thing... Imagine playing golf with improperly fit clubs and the wrong shafts? If you're a tall/bigger guy this is even more important. It's hard to master driving when your knees are hitting the steering wheel, your helmet is on your headliner, and your elbows get into your sides when steering. 7. Remeber hat you suck... no really... no matter how rad your car is, no matter how much back roads driving you've done or how much Gran Turismo you've played you still suck... so own up to it and come with an open mind and listen to your instructor. 8. Focus on the basics first.... like any sport you can master it all at once. So pick a specific area of the track or a specific skill you want to master and focus on it. Again compared to golf I wouldn't teach you the fine points of bunker play when your grip is all wrong still. 9. This is a do as I say not as I do.... if you have an expensive or hi-po car you should seriously consider geting rid of it. Get a Miata or e30 Bimmer etc Get something that has cheap consumables and something you can truly walk away from if you ball it up. That way you can drive w/o worry and w/o that monkey on your back. If you can truly afford to write of your $150,000 Ford GT then have fun with it! Put another way... what the track junkie spends on a good Big Brake Kit and wheels/tires for a Viper or C6 Z06 will buy you a fully prepped Miata race car and cover your costs for the whole year! My $0.02 I'm sure many more will be added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 Great suggestions from everyone. The two main points for a new person is to resist the urge to modify the crap out of your car before tracking (a stock car has more ability than you) and arrive at the event with an open mind! On the topic of shuffle steering... I also think it is a very valuable tool. And I preach the use of it. Here is why: Seat Position. If you sit close to the wheel so that your elbows are in a 90* position when at 9 and 3, you will need to pre-position your hands when turning. Your sitting position will not allow you to cross your arms. Why sit that close? LEVERAGE and resistance to fatigue and FEEDBACK from the wheel. If you hold your arms out at length, have someone push your fist in any direction. Now do the same with your elbows at 90*. You have more strength at 90* because you will be using more muscles. (Hard to demonstrate over the net) That leverage will equate to endurance and less fatigue as the weekend wears on. Not necessarily "shuffle steering" per se, but having your hands always in a position so that at a moments notice you can add more steering input or take away steering input. For the comment on professional drivers at LeMans or ALMS never taking their hands off the wheel, I will go out on a limb and say that their steering racks are a might bit faster than the typical car involved in HPDE, TT or Class Racing. If I had a faster rack, I would never have to go more than one revolution to get to steering lock on my Z06. Instead, it is over 2 revolutions. My .02. Your mileage may vary (or steering for that matter) -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Reposted from another forum with my trackdaddy Ed's permission. This goes along with the comments several of us have made about not overmodifying your car as a newbie. For the uninitiated, a "trackdaddy" is the person that originally introduced you to the trackpipe addiction. Something I wrote a long time ago really about a guy named Bryan. Don't be Sigmond. Mostly true story, not intended to be anything other than maybe a little humorous, you may know this guy however that I will call Sigmund: Story starts sometime around July 2002. Sigmund: “Man we got the new Cobras can’t wait to get it on the track” Ed: “There’s an event in September”. Sigmund: “Can’t make that one, I want the new Steeda G++ Track suspension before I take it out.” Six months later. Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Naw can’t make it, I want the new Godzilla vs. King Kong Supersupercharger, I will need that extra HP on the track.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Naw, can’t make it , I am gonna send the car to Kangaroo Racing down in Australia to see if they can fix the tune after I installed the GKK Supersupercharger.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Man I would love to but with 650 HP I want to get the new Stoptech Larger than Big, Kryptonite 12 piston brakes, with the diamond encrusted pads, the spent uranium rotors with the Freon direct assisted cooling kit. Before I hit the track” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “I am having some problems with the stock motor, probably need a rebuild after running 25lbs of boost for too long. Gonna probably send it to Fruits and Nuts Racing out in California for their super 900 HP build and Kangaroo Racings new tune with the GKK Supersupercharger.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Man I would love to , but I need some new rubber, but am going to wait until Ford Racing starts supplying the new 18’ Bling Blings, and UPR is going to install the full Billet Shiny Kit.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “I think that I am ready, I am wondering what class I should register for? You know I got the Steeda G+++, the GKK Supersupercharger, the Stoptech Larger than Big Kit, the Kangaroo Racing tune, with the Fruits and Nuts 900 HP rebuild, not to mention the 18 Bling Blings and the new Nitto IIR’s…” Ed: “Don’t forget the UPR Billet Shiny Kit.” Sigmund: “yea that too, so what do you think?” Ed: “Novice??” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99HOSS Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 ... my only comment on 'shuffle - steering' is that if you are compairing full race to street, the turn radius of these two extremes are worlds apart. Quik ratios in racing don't always trasnslate to the street. Steering wheel radius' can be significant, also. It is truly not a 'be all - end all' technique, but it is something to have managed in your toolbox of driving tricks. This is one I put together at one of my favorite tracks. http://pf-flyer.com/Videos/HandsAtTheGlen05.wmv ... and here is one I did for a driver I crew for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hmmm... Horsepower Junkies? Reposted from another forum with my trackdaddy Ed's permission. This goes along with the comments several of us have made about not overmodifying your car as a newbie. For the uninitiated, a "trackdaddy" is the person that originally introduced you to the trackpipe addiction. Something I wrote a long time ago really about a guy named Bryan. Don't be Sigmond. Mostly true story, not intended to be anything other than maybe a little humorous, you may know this guy however that I will call Sigmund: Story starts sometime around July 2002. Sigmund: “Man we got the new Cobras can’t wait to get it on the track” Ed: “There’s an event in September”. Sigmund: “Can’t make that one, I want the new Steeda G++ Track suspension before I take it out.” Six months later. Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Naw can’t make it, I want the new Godzilla vs. King Kong Supersupercharger, I will need that extra HP on the track.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Naw, can’t make it , I am gonna send the car to Kangaroo Racing down in Australia to see if they can fix the tune after I installed the GKK Supersupercharger.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Man I would love to but with 650 HP I want to get the new Stoptech Larger than Big, Kryptonite 12 piston brakes, with the diamond encrusted pads, the spent uranium rotors with the Freon direct assisted cooling kit. Before I hit the track” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “I am having some problems with the stock motor, probably need a rebuild after running 25lbs of boost for too long. Gonna probably send it to Fruits and Nuts Racing out in California for their super 900 HP build and Kangaroo Racings new tune with the GKK Supersupercharger.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “Man I would love to , but I need some new rubber, but am going to wait until Ford Racing starts supplying the new 18’ Bling Blings, and UPR is going to install the full Billet Shiny Kit.” Six months later Ed: “Got a track event next month you gonna come” Sigmund: “I think that I am ready, I am wondering what class I should register for? You know I got the Steeda G+++, the GKK Supersupercharger, the Stoptech Larger than Big Kit, the Kangaroo Racing tune, with the Fruits and Nuts 900 HP rebuild, not to mention the 18 Bling Blings and the new Nitto IIR’s…” Ed: “Don’t forget the UPR Billet Shiny Kit.” Sigmund: “yea that too, so what do you think?” Ed: “Novice??” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Yep. But I have known Ed for longer than he has been on that forum. -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Letostak Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 My advice: stay in HPDE1 as long as you can. I was only in 1 for a weekend before they moved me up, and I wish I would have stayed longer. Each instructor you get will show you a slightly different line around the course and you will slowly assimilate them together in your memory until you find what's right for you and your car. I had to beg, borrow, and steal instructors but I made sure I had one every weekend - not because I need someone to teach me how to drive, but because you can learn a TON from their vast experience. It wasn't until my 7th HPDE that an instructor that was testing me for the HPDE2-3 move showed me 2 areas on the track where I could try a slightly different line. It made a huge difference and it was truly exciting to realize I could shave seconds off of my time without dumping money into my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ_Z06 Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 Keep your eyes up. Look ahead, think ahead. Situational awareness. Checking mirrors. Vision techniques - practice on the street. I still catch myself not lookng far enough ahead or through the corners soon enough from time to time so I talk to myself out loud... look ahead , look through, eyes up, check flag stations, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 A great way to look up is to put a piece of tape on your dash that says "LOOK UP".... sounds stupid but it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getfast Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 Or cover the entire bottom third of your windshield with something (tape, contact paper, etc) for a weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99HOSS Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 ... rather than a piece of tape on your dash, place a small strip (~1/2" wide x 2" long) on the inside of your windshield in front of you. Then use it as a guide. That is where you want to be looking ovr it, looking ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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