Would this cost points?

[soundguydave]

Due to points cost, I'm going back to a stock, OEM fascia, and need to work in brake ducts. Due to "other stuff" in the way, the traditional location for duct inlets (corners of the lower grille inlet) is not viable, so I had a mind to duplicate these duct inlets:

 

 

I'm positive that cutting into the fascia to mount the ducts would be covered under the "no points" rule #25: "Brake duct addition or modification, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal). Two holes may be cut or drilled out of the front fascia for brake air ducts. Any hole providing improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13)."

 

My question is about the deflectors on the outside edges of the ducts. They OBVIOUSLY provide no downforce aero benefit, and their only function is to direct air into the ducts, which are at an angle and not directly into the airflow. Would this still be considered a no-point mod? I'm not talking about the splitter, or anything else on the car, JUST the duct inlet deflectors.

[Shawn M.]

Only the brake ducts could be used, would be fine under rule #25.

[mbuskuhl]

"Brake duct addition or modification, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal). Two holes may be cut or drilled out of the front fascia for brake air ducts. Any hole providing improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13)."

 

Only the brake ducts could be used, would be fine under rule #25.

 

Like Shawn said, your setup is perfectly legal.

 

The other rule to consider is... "If a modification is not specifically allowed by the rules, it is prohibited. A permitted item cannot be modified to perform either a prohibited function, or the function of an item that would otherwise be assessed points under the modification rules."

 

The brake duct rule clearly says you can add two brake ducts. The rule does not specify the size or shape of the brake duct so nothing to be concerned about there. In addition, the modification is specifically allowed (brake duct addition), your brake ducts do not perform a prohibited function or another function that would otherwise be assessed points.

 

If a am seeing the picture correctly, the clear plastic portion of your brake duct is attached to the black plastic part of your brake duct. It's a two piece brake duct design. Keep it this way, make sure they are attached to each other and don't attach that clear plastic to the bumper. What if the manufacturer had molded this entire duct into a single piece of plastic? Would there be any questions? No. Just because they have a two piece brake duct design does not change the fact that it's just a brake duct. You could always go ahead and fuse the black plastic to the clear plastic, paint the whole thing black and eliminate concern from those who may not like two piece brake duct designs.

[soundguydave]

Thank you, gents! I ordered the basic ducts today, and as soon as they come in, it's time to start fabricating the diverters...

[Shawn M.]

Thank you, gents! I ordered the basic ducts today, and as soon as they come in, it's time to start fabricating the diverters...

 

 

Dave, you cant use the diverters for no points. You can only use the brake ducts. Because the diverters mount outside the front facia, you would need to take 3 points for modified facia.

[Greg G.]

Thank you, gents! I ordered the basic ducts today, and as soon as they come in, it's time to start fabricating the diverters...

 

 

Dave, you cant use the diverters for no points. You can only use the brake ducts. Because the diverters mount outside the front facia, you would need to take 3 points for modified facia.

I agree. You cannot have a diverter that extends past the OEM fascia w/o taking the fascia points. Without going into a 12 page thread, I have already envisioned the next "generation" of this type of "diverter" changing the shape of OEM fascias with headlamp, foglight, and other insets, and we aren't going there. If you need more air to the brakes, then just add the No-Points fans.

[soundguydave]

That's what I was afraid of... 3 points for $4.00 worth of plastic, or no points for $100 worth of blowers.

 

For rules enforcement, it might just be easier if we just all run showroom stock...

[Greg G.]

That's legal.

[kbrew8991]

For rules enforcement, it might just be easier if we just all run showroom stock...

 

hey some of us do... (well almost anyway)

[Shawn M.]

That's what I was afraid of... 3 points for $4.00 worth of plastic, or no points for $100 worth of blowers.

 

For rules enforcement, it might just be easier if we just all run showroom stock...

 

 

In my opinion I dont think the diverters help the brake cooling as much as they hurt the frontal aero of the car. The ducts themselves should provide good cooling. Run that package and see what net results you get.

[mbuskuhl]

You cannot have a diverter that extends past the OEM fascia w/o taking the fascia points.

 

If that is the intent of the rules, can they be changed to reflect such please? All we can go off of when building cars is what is written in the rules. What is written in the rules is outlined in post #3. No one has offered any rebuttal to post #3 other than the executive decision that was posted. I propose the addition of the wording below to reflect the rules intent.

 

Brake duct addition or modification, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal). Two holes may be cut or drilled out of the front fascia for brake air ducts. No part of the brake duct may protrude beyond the front fascia. Any hole providing improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13).

[kbrew8991]

eh, come on Mark - the only modification to the fascia allowed is to create a hole for the duct. Not add an edge so more air goes in. Common sense to me at least...

[mbuskuhl]

eh, come on Mark - the only modification to the fascia allowed is to create a hole for the duct. Not add an edge so more air goes in. Common sense to me at least...

 

RULE: "Brake duct addition or modification, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal). Two holes may be cut or drilled out of the front fascia for brake air ducts. Any hole providing improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13)."

 

eh, come on Ken. Where does the rule specify the shape or size of the duct? It doesn't. We aren't talking about fascia modification, none has been done. The only thing that has been does is a brake duct was added that protrudes beyond the fascia, which executive powers did not intend to allow such, so let's close the loophole. As I outlined in post #3 so long as the clear plastic was attached to the black plastic it was just a 2 piece duct, actually probably a 4 piece duct when it's done with a 2 piece inlet, 1 hose, and 1 hub backing plate. Attach the clear plastic to the fascia rather than the duct and that's another story. Attach to the duct and it's just a duct.

 

How about an OEM bumper that has air ducts added and molded into the fog light openings? How many points do you want to give this bumper? The right side openings allow air to the intake (+1). You want to call this fascia modification as well?

 

You know if you push me to ST3 you'll be the only PT car left in TX

 

[kbrew8991]

$5 says Greg quotes himself from earlier in the thread and then gives the standard response about not having every tiny thing you can and can't do listed or else we'd have a 32,452,345 page rulebook that no one would read.

 

And then we can still get into how an allowance to cut any size hole you want and attach the brake duct hardware on the backside doesn't allow you to do anything else on the front side of that opening if you want.

[MSP608]

Dave, you cant use the diverters for no points. You can only use the brake ducts. Because the diverters mount outside the front facia, you would need to take 3 points for modified facia.

Are you interpreting this as:

 

1) Add, replace, or modify front fascia or air dam +3 (except as provided for in 13), 25), 57) of

the No-Points Modification list) (note: Additional points must be assessed below for any

component of the added/replaced/modified fascia or air dam that performs the functions

listed in 2) and 4) below)

 

Other than that, I see no mention about anything extending past the front fascia besides the next rule:

 

2) Add, replace or modify a single front splitter/spoiler/wing/foil +3 (note: This part may

extend horizontally past the side of the vehicle no greater than five inches. If any portion of

this part that protrudes from the side of vehicle is not parallel to the ground, then additional

points must be assessed for canards in 4) below.) (note: No material or part may extend the

vertical reach of the OEM front fascia without taking fascia modification points above.)

 

But these scoops certainly have no function as a splitter/spoiler/wing/foil.

[Greg G.]

$5 says Greg quotes himself from earlier in the thread and then gives the standard response about not having every tiny thing you can and can't do listed or else we'd have a 32,452,345 page rulebook that no one would read.

 

And then we can still get into how an allowance to cut any size hole you want and attach the brake duct hardware on the backside doesn't allow you to do anything else on the front side of that opening if you want.

No, I'll quote you instead since you very eloquently stated the correct position!

 

FYI, I didn't see any problem with the photo Mark posted.

 

And to MSP608: No, it is not the splitter rule that covers this, it is the fascia rule. The fascia is the presenting surface of the vehicle. By adding the diverters as shown, the presenting face or "fascia" of the vehicle has changed. We have allowed holes to be cut/drilled into the fascia to provide for air intake (with the +1), and for brake ducts, and cooling (13, 25, 57 of the No-Points Mod list), but we have not allowed for changes in the "fascia" otherwise without taking points under Aero. And, we aren't going to get into a debate regarding whether "this diverter or that diverter" provides any other benefit (or even is detrimental). We simplified this rule to avoid having to make subjective rulings on this without the benefit of wind tunnel testing, etc.

 

Just for fun (and to see if I can get this thread to the prescribed 12 page minimum for any recent thread questioning a rule ), lets say that someone had found out that some fog lamp insets on an OEM fascia were just big air traps causing drag and hurting the laminar flow off the OEM fascia. The rules do not permit those insets to be covered and create a new "fascia" surface that was never present on the OEM fascia. They do allow the actual hole to be covered if the fog lamp is removed, but the OEM face or fascia shape must be preserved. What if the fog lamp cutouts were now used for "brake ducts", and those "diverters" shown in the OP photo were made 9 inches longer--with just a 5mm opening for air to get into the "ducts"? Essentially, the "problem" fog lamp insets would then be "fixed" without taking points. So, now you say, "Well, the rules say that you can't use an approved item to perform the function of an item that would otherwise take points", etc., etc. Ok, well, who is going to determine that the "diverter" has become large enough to now be functioning as a beneficial fascia mod, and more importantly, what criteria could be used short of wind tunnel testing? So, the answer is---You can't have "diverters sticking out past the fascia or changing the "face" or "fascia" presenting surface. And, for Mark, I can come up with various examples on every one of the hundred plus assessed mods where we could be much more specific to cover every type of situation. But, it would make the Car Classification Form 10-30 pages long, and nobody would bother to read any of it anyway (well, you and maybe three more of us would, but that's it )

[mbuskuhl]

 

FYI, I didn't see any problem with the photo Mark posted.

 

 

Greg and I can agree! It's a day for the history books

[Shawn M.]

IN before page 12!! WHOO!!!!

[kbrew8991]

 

FYI, I didn't see any problem with the photo Mark posted.

 

 

Greg and I can agree! It's a day for the history books

 

brake duct holes points free

+1 for the scoop going to the intake

 

Nothing really special there

[MSP608]

Just to double check, am I okay to run these for duct inlets at no points? OEM fog bezels:

 

 

Disregarding the splitter and already modified bumper, I take it adding scoops like this requires +3 just like the Mustang? Also, does removing a grille that doesn't attach to the bumper cost any points?

 

[Greg G.]

As shown on the blue car--looks ok, but it would be nicer if the duct hose was not protruding, but I personally wouldn't approve a protest based on that--there is no change to the fascia presenting surface.

 

The car below does appear to have the fascia changed, and would catch the +3 points with the diverters.

[MSP608]

K cool. Yeah I don't like them sticking out either, but I haven't figured out a way to secure them behind the opening. They're stove pipes from Lowes by the way.

 

Just curious, what about aftermarket pieces that fit exactly in the fog light bezel hole? Like this one:

 

 

They're just holes for the brake ducts, but do they fit within the rules? Here's a non fog light OEM example by the way:

 

[Greg G.]

It depends on what the base trim model comes with--fog light insets or covers?

[nasaregistrar]

It depends on what the base trim model comes with--fog light insets or covers?

How exactly is it determined what came on the base trim model for the cars?

[Kubs]

K cool. Yeah I don't like them sticking out either, but I haven't figured out a way to secure them behind the opening. They're stove pipes from Lowes by the way.

 

I had to chuckle when I read that! Mine cooling ducts are 3" bathroom exhaust fan hoses also from Lowes!!