TTB - Car choice - C5 vs. Evo

[D_Eclipse9916]

It is good to be hated. Means you have done your job.

Agreed. Also, most importantly, it means that the drivers and cars that finished at or near the top truly deserved to be there (as opposed to drivers who admit to not reading the rules but argue about them anyway).

 

Mark

 

 

Ill admit I was a bit feeling like I was being harassed at the time as I was sent to impound every single timed session aside from when I had a mechanical (broke 3 wheel studs mid-corner). I was weighed I think 6 times, my car was inspected by an inspector 3 seperate times, and the car was dynoed when it had a base class classification (not a dyno reclass). A few hours after the fact, it made sense; but it was still frustrating at the time. I passed with flying colors every single time. I did find that every single one of the TT officials was very strict but extremely respectful and fair. I think I got questioned a million times wether I had cams and wether my cats were gutted. Was pretty hilarious to rev the engine so the official could "sniff" my tailpipe

[Varkwso]

Point being, the C5 base class is generous. Everyone knows it as such, and that cant be argued otherwise. In stock trim the C5 exists oat the ratio limit with a tune. No other car, that I can recall, exists this way. Ben can drive but thats not whats in question.

 

The track was far from being in ideal conditions at Nationals. Given better conditions, I would expect Ben to run a mid/high 1:34. In TTB..

 

That car was nowhere near 10:1 BTW. Stock C5s despite the hype of tuners pick up very little from a tune unless you go with 100 octane (good for about 10). In A and S we often richen them to get HP a little down and save pistons, except for Scott, he wins PTA with only seven in his car in an underdog engine.

 

With 255s you can exceed 10:1 a little if you can do it without points.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Point being, the C5 base class is generous. Everyone knows it as such, and that cant be argued otherwise. In stock trim the C5 exists at the ratio limit with a tune. No other car, that I can recall, exists this way. Ben can drive but thats not whats in question.

 

The track was far from being in ideal conditions at Nationals. Given better conditions, I would expect Ben to run a mid/high 1:34. In TTB..

 

 

Looking at the results Ben ran the 1:35.883 in session 5. Neither you, or Matt McinTyre ran in that heat. 8 of the top 10 ran in that sesion, 1 (me), had a mechanical. So 7 people of the top 10 ran that session for times, out of those 7, 5 people put down the best times of the event in that heat with some over a complete second faster in just that heat. It would seem the condition were "just right" for that session that you missed.

 

His second fastest time occured on the last session on sunday with a 1:36.5, where matt Mcintyre (another B car) ran a 1:36.8, and you ran a 1:37.9.

 

 

This doesnt justify that the C5 belongs in TTB, but it does point to mention that when comparing apples to apples (same track conditions for everyone), he was only ahead by .3 seconds from 2nd in TTB. If you ran that heat and went by what 5 out of 7 people did, you would almost have dropped a second. Being only 1.02 seconds off Ben.

 

I do think that a C5 on 255 A6s is a mighty big toughie, but then again people can complain that the TTA C5 z06 is right on that limit as well, and is unfairly classed there. I dont like as well that my car is 13.8 p/w when my class is 12 p/w.

[hired wrench]

We lost, all that means is working on the short track setup for the car.

 

......and just so NASA tech workers know, the easy spot check for cats w/o "smelling" the exhaust involves an infrared heat gun pre and post cat, because converting exhaust gasses is an exothermic reaction.

[AZELISE]

In stock trim the C5 exists at the ratio limit with a tune. No other car, that I can recall, exists this way. Ben can drive but thats not whats in question.al conditions at Nationals. ..

 

My TTC Lotus Elise with 100% stock drivetrain had to be ballasted to 2116 pounds, which is above the published minimum weight of 1974 pounds to avoid going under the minimum weight to power ratio. And yes I recieved the dyno "reward" and was weighed many times at 2009 nationals. Anyone want to buy a killer TTC car?

[TurboShortBus]

Ill admit I was a bit feeling like I was being harassed at the time as I was sent to impound every single timed session aside from when I had a mechanical (broke 3 wheel studs mid-corner). I was weighed I think 6 times, my car was inspected by an inspector 3 seperate times, and the car was dynoed when it had a base class classification (not a dyno reclass). A few hours after the fact, it made sense; but it was still frustrating at the time. I passed with flying colors every single time. I did find that every single one of the TT officials was very strict but extremely respectful and fair. I think I got questioned a million times wether I had cams and wether my cats were gutted.

Being inspected and dynoed should be an honor! It means that you're fast and you're on our radar, and if you pass, then it means that you're a badass driver with a perfectly legal car. It also limits the amount of "cheater speculation" on the forums in the days following an event.

 

and the car was dynoed when it had a base class classification (not a dyno reclass)

This was done to confirm the adjusted weight/power ratio, as noted in Appendix C. All cars must be compliant with this, no matter how they are initially classed.

 

Was pretty hilarious to rev the engine so the official could "sniff" my tailpipe

......and just so NASA tech workers know, the easy spot check for cats w/o "smelling" the exhaust involves an infrared heat gun pre and post cat, because converting exhaust gasses is an exothermic reaction.

I was pretty amazed by the "sniffer" test as well. My low-tech suggestion was to stick a coat hanger or a stick into the turn-down tip (which was right at the end of the cat) to see if it hit anything, but I was trumped by zee sniffer. Besides, who in the hell still has the stock cats on their TT car? Oh wait, mine does...lol

 

Mark

[Bnjmn]

I think my best time came in session 6 (Sat, 1030am). I had a ~35.8 in progress late in session 4 (Friday 1030am), but lost communication with the car going into Thunder Valley.

I ran in August the weekend after IndyCar/ALMS/WC and felt that the track was at least equivalent to then on Saturday. But even on Sunday, Rory knocked half a second off his TTA time.

 

FWIW, none of the top 3 TTB guys were within 20hp of their limit, according to my informal poll.

 

The TTB record only dropped ~.6 sec (from J. Slinkard's 2007 time), other classes dropped significantly more. I can't imagine Slinkard's S2k was anywhere near the hp limit, but I am not familiar with his car.

[D_Eclipse9916]

 

Was pretty hilarious to rev the engine so the official could "sniff" my tailpipe

......and just so NASA tech workers know, the easy spot check for cats w/o "smelling" the exhaust involves an infrared heat gun pre and post cat, because converting exhaust gasses is an exothermic reaction.

I was pretty amazed by the "sniffer" test as well. My low-tech suggestion was to stick a coat hanger or a stick into the turn-down tip (which was right at the end of the cat) to see if it hit anything, but I was trumped by zee sniffer. Besides, who in the hell still has the stock cats on their TT car? Oh wait, mine does...lol

 

Mark

 

Wait, so you sniffed my tailpipe, and now you wish you had stuck something up it? Your a sick man

[TurboShortBus]

Wait, so you sniffed my tailpipe, and now you wish you had stuck something up it? Your a sick man

No sir, that was not me taking a whiff of your, uh, emissions outlet! That was Tage.

 

Mark

[Varkwso]

 

Was pretty hilarious to rev the engine so the official could "sniff" my tailpipe

......and just so NASA tech workers know, the easy spot check for cats w/o "smelling" the exhaust involves an infrared heat gun pre and post cat, because converting exhaust gasses is an exothermic reaction.

I was pretty amazed by the "sniffer" test as well. My low-tech suggestion was to stick a coat hanger or a stick into the turn-down tip (which was right at the end of the cat) to see if it hit anything, but I was trumped by zee sniffer. Besides, who in the hell still has the stock cats on their TT car? Oh wait, mine does...lol

 

Mark

 

Wait, so you sniffed my tailpipe, and now you wish you had stuck something up it? Your a sick man

 

You have to love racers...

[Varkwso]

We lost, all that means is working on the short track setup for the car.

 

......and just so NASA tech workers know, the easy spot check for cats w/o "smelling" the exhaust involves an infrared heat gun pre and post cat, because converting exhaust gasses is an exothermic reaction.

 

You probably ought to say it is "hotter" post cat....

 

With a coathanger being the high tech solution let's not use too many technical terms.

 

You guys have built an awesome car BTW. Hope you stay in TTB and leave us bottom feeders alone in TTS!

[smokinjoe]

Heck no - go into TTS with Jeff. I hope it aint "built".. unless you consider tires as being built. If there was rubber on the track, I still think its got a 1:34.

[Eric J.]

Finally catching up on this internet thread stuff...glad to see the discussions and the feedback from the drivers.

 

Huge congrats to Ben for showing how it's done in TTB, and for being patient with us during compliance testing. I can tell you it's gratifying for the officials to be able to have confidence to defend somebody's results after thorough scrutiny. The majority of the competitors seem to get that. That was an impressive drive and it's nice when the drivers understand the rules and have made the obvious effort to be compliant. That makes the official's jobs a lot more fun and I think Ben's a good example of how to do it right. That was a well deserved trophy. Kudos.

[Bnjmn]

A clarification of what I mean by "floppy suspension":

 

http://wrtsportsphotos.zenfolio.com/p413201102/h3c094f15

[SNAKBITN]

Ah hell that's just more weight transfer.

 

Robert

[99MPower]

depending on how this off season goes, I'll be working on building something close to Wongers old TTB car. E36 M3, maxed out in TTB. Going to get creative with points like Eric did, and see what happens.

[D_Eclipse9916]

depending on how this off season goes, I'll be working on building something close to Wongers old TTB car. E36 M3, maxed out in TTB. Going to get creative with points like Eric did, and see what happens.

 

Be careful with points and you can have something pretty sick. Im not sure enough to take out a C5. Take my build in C with 370lbs removed (that was my reclass for B if I wanted to run in B). Is 370lbs enough to go from my 1:36.9 at Mid-Ohio to whatever the C5 was doing?

 

Edit: Saw he did a 1:35.88. If there is supposed to be 2-3 seconds between classes I would say the C5 isnt unfairly classed.

 

TTC Results

Me (e36 m3) 1:36.9

Aaron Leichty (s2000) 1:37.3

Dan (s2000) 1:37.4?

 

So the top 3 C cars were within 2 seconds of the C5, I think its more than well-classed in B. TT is getting reallllly competitive. I brought a car that was 98% of the rules I could (including the plywood splitter ), and Aaron and Dan also had their cars really well prepped (all of us had a few "free" items we could do from what I saw). Had 2 different types of cars with close competition, drove us all to go faster than normal (4 cars in C blasted through the previous Mid-O record).

[Cobra4B]

A clarification of what I mean by "floppy suspension":

 

 

[Rob S.]

depending on how this off season goes, I'll be working on building something close to Wongers old TTB car. E36 M3, maxed out in TTB. Going to get creative with points like Eric did, and see what happens.

 

Be careful with points and you can have something pretty sick. Im not sure enough to take out a C5. Take my build in C with 370lbs removed (that was my reclass for B if I wanted to run in B). Is 370lbs enough to go from my 1:36.9 at Mid-Ohio to whatever the C5 was doing?

 

Edit: Saw he did a 1:35.88. If there is supposed to be 2-3 seconds between classes I would say the C5 isnt unfairly classed.

 

TTC Results

Me (e36 m3) 1:36.9

Aaron Leichty (s2000) 1:37.3

Dan (s2000) 1:37.4?

 

So the top 3 C cars were within 2 seconds of the C5, I think its more than well-classed in B. TT is getting reallllly competitive. I brought a car that was 98% of the rules I could (including the plywood splitter ), and Aaron and Dan also had their cars really well prepped (all of us had a few "free" items we could do from what I saw). Had 2 different types of cars with close competition, drove us all to go faster than normal (4 cars in C blasted through the previous Mid-O record).

 

You can't base the fairness of the classing by lap times and I'm not sure where the "2-3 seconds between classes" came from. The lap times are affected by too many variables. This is the first time a C5 drove in TTB at the Nationals. I'm not taking anything away from Ben because he drove a great lap. Maybe give Ben another three sessions and maybe he could have ripped off a high 1:34.

 

The LS1 completely stock makes ~315whp and a flat 300lb-ft w/o a free tune. Would you rather have a car that makes 315whp/300lb-ft or 315whp/200lb-ft. Torque is a huge deal, which is why it is part of the calculation in AI and GTS. I don't understand why it's not in PT/TT. The C5 OEM suspension is good, they are wide, low and are fairly slippery cars, which have a massive, flat torque curve. The C5 Z06 has dominately TTA for as long as I can remember. Adjustments are made in every race organization when one car dominates. In my opinion, which is only that, NASA should review the base classing for the C5 Vettes.

 

Disclaimer: None of the above has anything to do with Ben beating me in Aug and the Nationals. He did a great job. My car is not maxed out in TTB and has a TTC wt/pwr ratio. Next yr it will be ready to run at least 35's .

Edited September 22, 2011 by Guest

[99MPower]

Oh for sure, the torque of the C5 is definitely a huge advantage. I need to really get into the rules and max out what I can and take all the free mods as well. An E36 M3 with 280/250 weighing around 3000 with driver and full aero would be a monster. 280 - 3000 would actually be faster than a GTS3 car, and they were running 134-135s in the E36 M3.

[smokinjoe]

Rob's point is what I have been resonating. I trust Eric and the other scrutineers that due diligence was done on Ben's car and I believe Ben's car is legal. But the C5 itself is should scrutinized. What other car in B has those attributes? There should be more parity.

[sperkins]

You can't base the fairness of the classing by lap times

Sure you can. At the end of the day that's all that matters.

 

I'm not sure where the "2-3 seconds between classes" came from.

It's been the national and regional average for a couple of years now in nearly every class.

 

Maybe give Ben another three sessions and maybe he could have ripped off a high 1:34.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

 

Torque is a huge deal, which is why it is part of the calculation in AI and GTS. I don't understand why it's not in PT/TT.

Because the whole premise of the TT/PT system is to be able to compete in cars as they were built/designed from the factory with only limited modifications to keep costs in check. If you want to build a torque monster, you are free to do so as long as you take the points hit for whatever parts you installed to get there.

 

The C5 OEM suspension is good.

While it's no Suburban, the base model C5 suspension stuff leaves a lot to be desired for racing in any form. The beauty of the C5 is it's chassis and it responds well to a good setup and a good driver. MO is more well suited for the softness of the base C5 suspension - more so than a place like VIR or Rd Atl.

[sperkins]

Rob's point is what I have been resonating. I trust Eric and the other scrutineers that due diligence was done on Ben's car and I believe Ben's car is legal. But the C5 itself is should scrutinized. What other car in B has those attributes? There should be more parity.

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd whip any base model C5 at a place like Rd Atl or VIR. Heck - you're faster than most of the TTA Corvettes at Atlanta.

[TurboShortBus]

Rob's point is what I have been resonating. I trust Eric and the other scrutineers that due diligence was done on Ben's car and I believe Ben's car is legal. But the C5 itself is should scrutinized. What other car in B has those attributes? There should be more parity.

On Saturday night at the Championships, I contacted a fellow TT director (who is pretty knowledgeable with C5 Vettes) and asked him to email me all OEM part numbers that he had access to. On Sunday morning, Ben's car went up in the air in the tech shed and all legible part numbers and component dimensions (shock diameters, etc.) were checked. I'm confident that the car is legal as well.

 

Mark

[Rob S.]

You can't base the fairness of the classing by lap times

Sure you can. At the end of the day that's all that matters.

 

I'm not sure where the "2-3 seconds between classes" came from.

It's been the national and regional average for a couple of years now in nearly every class.

 

 

I could show you where the difference between classes is 2-3 seconds, more than 2-3 seconds and less than 2-3 seconds. The bottom line is as the director it's their responsibility to review base classing and make adjustments if necessary. Like you (a Corvette owner), I wouldn't want my base class changed for the worse either. As an example, in the last three yrs both the Sentra and 240sx had either weight or an * added to the base class. The 240sx has never even won Nationals in any PT/TT class I'm aware of but the NASA officals reviewed the base class for whatever reason and decided an * should be added. Of the 14 cars in TTA, 9 were Corvettes....for a good reason.

 

Similarly one could argue the S2000 base class should be reviewed. I say reviewed.....and it may be deemed appropriately classed.

 

Between you and I......I own a '08 Corvette, which I may track someday, and still think they should be reviewed.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Guest