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TTB - Car choice - C5 vs. Evo


Bnjmn

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Because the whole premise of the TT/PT system is to be able to compete in cars as they were built/designed from the factory with only limited modifications to keep costs in check. If you want to build a torque monster, you are free to do so as long as you take the points hit for whatever parts you installed to get there.

Or, custom-build an engine so that it makes a ton more torque while keeping the horsepower the same; submit dyno sheets and MCW for a base re-class, and away you go. You might even end up with fewer modification points.

 

Mark

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Because the whole premise of the TT/PT system is to be able to compete in cars as they were built/designed from the factory with only limited modifications to keep costs in check. If you want to build a torque monster, you are free to do so as long as you take the points hit for whatever parts you installed to get there.

Or, custom-build an engine so that it makes a ton more torque while keeping the horsepower the same; submit dyno sheets and MCW for a base re-class, and away you go. You might even end up with fewer modification points.

 

Mark

 

Re-class is a whole other discussion. I'm simply talking about making adjustments to base classes if necessary based on historic performance. All organizations do it.

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Rob's point is what I have been resonating. I trust Eric and the other scrutineers that due diligence was done on Ben's car and I believe Ben's car is legal. But the C5 itself is should scrutinized. What other car in B has those attributes? There should be more parity.

On Saturday night at the Championships, I contacted a fellow TT director (who is pretty knowledgeable with C5 Vettes) and asked him to email me all OEM part numbers that he had access to. On Sunday morning, Ben's car went up in the air in the tech shed and all legible part numbers and component dimensions (shock diameters, etc.) were checked. I'm confident that the car is legal as well.

 

Mark

 

You and the other directors did a great job during the Championships. Tech inspections were very thorough. I know as I was in tech seven times!

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Of the 14 cars in TTA, 9 were Corvettes....for a good reason.

And 7 of those Corvettes were beaten by a well prepped, well driven Evo which held the top spot until the last day.

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Of the 14 cars in TTA, 9 were Corvettes....for a good reason.

And 7 of those Corvettes were beaten by a well prepped, well driven Evo which held the top spot until the last day.

 

Correct, so what's your point? Since an EVO beat 7 Corvettes doesn't mean the C5 base and Z06 base classes shouldn't be reviewed and adjusted if deemed necessary.

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>> Similarly one could argue the S2000 base class should be reviewed. I say reviewed.....and it may be deemed appropriately classed.

 

what! seriously? I mean we lost in TTC at Mid Ohio out of any track where you would want to use an S2000 for TTC!

Surely we'd get killed at Road Atlanta or VIR or the Utah track by a well driven M3 and who knows what else?

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The big disadvantage to the car (Joe's car), the Achilles's heel, is when the steering wheel has to swing past 90*. It is set up to run a "fast" track. We've neglected to dial in a proper "short" track setup, i.e. CMP, MO, NCCAR,

 

Turn 7 at Road Atlanta and Oak Tree at VIR are the only corners on those tracks where the car tends to remind you it was originally a rental car.

 

 

 

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd whip any base model C5 at a place like Rd Atl or VIR. Heck - you're faster than most of the TTA Corvettes at Atlanta.

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I saw what Erics TTB prepped BMW could do at Road Atlanta and VIR. I maintained all along the car to beat in TTB was the E36/46 M and the C5. No one built a TTB C5 (I ran mine with street tires in 2006) since it is not that much fun to drive compared to a TTA/S/U C5. It wallows with its soft base suspension and is blessed with a decent torque curve to move its 3246 base weight.

 

There are a lot of C5s in TT/PT/ST for a lot of reasons. They are fast cars for the money, they are cheap to maintain and the supply is very large. The level of prep is amazing on the front runners and everyone, except a few grumps, share setup data freely. When other cars, in that base class, are that well prepped, come back again and lets see who does what. Look at the times in all the classes from the last time it was run at Mid Ohio. People are getting better at prepping cars and driving the car they have under them.

 

If they weren't so dang expensive (priced an E36 M motor lately?) I would prep a E36/46 M for TTB. I wish I had a base C5 TTB car up there at Mid Ohio to show they could run mid pack also...

 

TTA is Spec C5Z - but it did not happen overnight. Cars are being built to the rules AND setups are being tested constantly, and guess what, they are getting faster. Leaving free mods on the table is not a good plan if you intend to win.

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But the C5 itself is should scrutinized.

 

For 2 yrs the winning TTA car and this past year the winning TTB car ran on a ~10.5" wide A6 that reads 255 on the sidewall. Were there any other TTB cars running that tire? There were several other TTA that were (I was one). The generous give back of pts for this tire in A (and less so in B) allows a few additional goodies for any A or B car, including the corvette. These are nice freebies that allow a car like the corvette that would normally not be allowed to do hardly anything in A, or B, to get some additional speed hardware on the car. (I'm not aware of another tire in sizes for B-F that would be so "generous")

 

I'm not saying the tire should, or shouldn't be looked at. I'm just saying take a closer look at the "car".

 

The lap time spread from S to A to B doesn't raise my eyebrows.

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But the C5 itself is should scrutinized.

 

For 2 yrs the winning TTA car and this past year the winning TTB car ran on a ~10.5" wide A6 that reads 255 on the sidewall. Were there any other TTB cars running that tire? There were several other TTA that were (I was one). The generous give back of pts for this tire in A (and less so in B) allows a few additional goodies for any A or B car, including the corvette. These are nice freebies that allow a car like the corvette that would normally not be allowed to do hardly anything in A, or B, to get some additional speed hardware on the car. (I'm not aware of another tire in sizes for B-F that would be so "generous")

 

I'm not saying the tire should, or shouldn't be looked at. I'm just saying take a closer look at the "car".

 

The lap time spread from S to A to B doesn't raise my eyebrows.

 

 

Learning to drive that porky car on bicycle tires with lots of torque is not as easy as it looks. One reason I love my 315 TTS tires...

 

The base tire benefit is huge in many classes, and since I see all the sheets in my region it allows a lot of car points in the small wheelwell families. I still think TTB should be base classed 275 btw.

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>> Similarly one could argue the S2000 base class should be reviewed. I say reviewed.....and it may be deemed appropriately classed.

 

what! seriously? I mean we lost in TTC at Mid Ohio out of any track where you would want to use an S2000 for TTC!

Surely we'd get killed at Road Atlanta or VIR or the Utah track by a well driven M3 and who knows what else?

 

Daniel - I just threw the S2000 in there so it didn't seem like I was just picking on the C5's.

 

Closing comment - I'm sure they are and I'm just pointing out the obvious regarding the NASA officals reviewing base classes and adjusting when necessary.

 

Long live the Corvette !!!

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I still think TTB should be base classed 275 btw.

 

Agreed. I fought that battle for a year and a half when I base classed my car in TTB so for Nats I ended up base classing to TTA just for the tire allowance.

It was the wrong choice.

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On Saturday night at the Championships, I contacted a fellow TT director (who is pretty knowledgeable with C5 Vettes) and asked him to email me all OEM part numbers that he had access to. On Sunday morning, Ben's car went up in the air in the tech shed and all legible part numbers and component dimensions (shock diameters, etc.) were checked. I'm confident that the car is legal as well.

 

Mark

There was only one illegal TT podium car that I know of and it wasn't Ben's.

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I still think TTB should be base classed 275 btw.

 

Agreed. I fought that battle for a year and a half when I base classed my car in TTB so for Nats I ended up base classing to TTA just for the tire allowance.

It was the wrong choice.

 

Dance with the one that brung ya.

 

Better the Devil you know than the Angel you don't

 

how many other such sayings did we violate at nats.

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On Saturday night at the Championships, I contacted a fellow TT director (who is pretty knowledgeable with C5 Vettes) and asked him to email me all OEM part numbers that he had access to. On Sunday morning, Ben's car went up in the air in the tech shed and all legible part numbers and component dimensions (shock diameters, etc.) were checked. I'm confident that the car is legal as well.

 

Mark

There was only one illegal TT podium car that I know of and it wasn't Ben's.

 

I agree with Mark's suggestion to elaborate. It is important that we TT people police ourselves by providing feedback or asking appropriate questions on suspect cars.

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But the C5 itself is should scrutinized.

 

For 2 yrs the winning TTA car and this past year the winning TTB car ran on a ~10.5" wide A6 that reads 255 on the sidewall. Were there any other TTB cars running that tire? There were several other TTA that were (I was one). The generous give back of pts for this tire in A (and less so in B) allows a few additional goodies for any A or B car, including the corvette. These are nice freebies that allow a car like the corvette that would normally not be allowed to do hardly anything in A, or B, to get some additional speed hardware on the car. (I'm not aware of another tire in sizes for B-F that would be so "generous")

 

I'm not saying the tire should, or shouldn't be looked at. I'm just saying take a closer look at the "car".

 

The lap time spread from S to A to B doesn't raise my eyebrows.

 

 

Learning to drive that porky car on bicycle tires with lots of torque is not as easy as it looks. One reason I love my 315 TTS tires...

 

The base tire benefit is huge in many classes, and since I see all the sheets in my region it allows a lot of car points in the small wheelwell families. I still think TTB should be base classed 275 btw.

 

 

Ditto on the 315's I ran 275's in 2010 and they were fine, but I can get away with alot more on the current 315/335 set up(and the added ballast). I don't see how the C5 mafia does it on 255's. Just another testament to how good of drivers they are... and how well they have set up their cars. It's like when people talk about being/living healthy... it's diet and exercise to get the highest return. Well set up car + good driver. That's what they remind me of

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I don't see how the C5 mafia does it on 255's.

Because the 255/35-18 R6s and A6s are labeled as 255mm but are just as wide as the 275mm R6s and A6s when you put them next to each other; they are a bit of a "cheater" tire. With that being said, I have 2 sets of them here.

 

Mark

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They may have similar widths, but the Hoosier 255's and 275's are two completely different animals.

The lack of sidewall on the 255 makes it interesting to say the least. At Rd Atl they are fast as stink, but at Mid-O the 275 was just plain faster.

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They may have similar widths, but the Hoosier 255's and 275's are two completely different animals.

The lack of sidewall on the 255 makes it interesting to say the least. At Rd Atl they are fast as stink, but at Mid-O the 275 was just plain faster.

 

When you load up the 255 mid corner, it feels pretty good. However with all the corners at MO that fall away from you where you are on the gas, I could not get a handle on it. Maybe my static ride heights or shock droop was way off, but I could not use any real throttle until sunday, when I put on the 275's and stock shocks. The car was so much better in the transient elevation stuff.

 

If my dad was still around I would have had four 275 stickers from the basement loaded up in his van and he'd be midnight delivery running from GA that night (and he would have done it!)

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Do I need to remind my TTA brothers that we got beat by a great driver on 255s? So SOMEONE made the best of them.

 

Seeing how Ben's car did on the stock springs and shocks has me looking in a different direction.

 

 

-Kevin

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Do I need to remind my TTA brothers that we got beat by a great driver on 255s? So SOMEONE made the best of them.

 

Oh absolutely. I never took away from the fact that the winner was on 255's. That being said, I can guarantee you that he too would have been faster on 275's.

 

For me personally, sticker 255's (morning) were only .015 sec quicker than my who knows how old 275 scrubs (afternoon) on Friday. That being said, the sticker run was only the 6th lap ever I'd turned on that track in dry conditions and the only real reason I ran them was to scrub them in for the Saturday PT race. There was no way I could have known enough about the track to get everything that sticker tires offer, but by the end of Saturday I had run enough laps to know that 275's were the faster tire at that particular track.

It's hard to argue that the 71 car picked up a lot of time when he swapped to 275 scrubs that had seen an entire 40 minute race the day before and ran within .1 sec of the pre-existing track record.

 

Seeing how Ben's car did on the stock springs and shocks has me looking in a different direction.

Agreed. I'd run the 255's all day every day at a place like VIR or Rd Atl and use those extra points for something else.

I wish I could run with you guys at VIR in a couple of weeks to try it out, but it's just not gonna happen.

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