Jump to content
LMan

Fatality at CMP

Recommended Posts

mcmmotorsports

 

makes me wonder if DEs will start requiring that cars run straight water, no ethylene glycol. i mean it's not as if we're out there driving around in the snow.

 

Personally, I would like to see ALL vehicles participating in on-track activities required to run straight water. It really isn't that big of a deal, in my book, to change it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trhoads

it makes sense to do that, I agree, and will probably switch to straight water my next time out.

 

But think about an HPDE 1 student...are they really going to do that, or take the time. They most likely don't understand why you would do that, and would probably not realize the importance of it. And tech wouldn't catch it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gimpstang

I like the idea but I think it would be a much harder sell to your introductory DE1 student.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
beerkat
it makes sense to do that, I agree, and will probably switch to straight water my next time out.

 

...

 

I been thinking about doing this too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trhoads

straight water could have been trouble at CMP last month, what do racers who run straight water do when it is that cold overnight. I think the 944 in the garage bay across from us had a block heater on, but I did not see that on any other cars...just curious. It is warm enough now it is not a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim P.

In very cold conditions straight water will be just as dangerous as anti-freeze as it will literally freeze on contact with the frozen pavement. Most cars that run water have some type of silicone based enhancer in the water to help with corrosion and/or cooling properties. And we all use a popular silicone based lubricant... (WD-40?) - There is truly no clear-cut solution to keep a car cool and not cause issues when it is deposited on an asphalt surface.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fred Crawford

Jimbo,

 

WaterWeter is a solution..... its mandated in about all venues of racing. Only a few times is it cold enough for water to freeze on contact with the track...... I assure I won't be racing that day.. The yellow flag with red stripes.... very important. I always pay great attention to it.

 

j Deere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trhoads

I was talking more about when the car sits overnight, less about what happens when you dump it on the track. How do you keep it from freezing in the engine overnight.

 

WaterWetter is good for most engines...just not the ones that spin round and round. So I am told.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Firebird Man
straight water could have been trouble at CMP last month, what do racers who run straight water do when it is that cold overnight. I think the 944 in the garage bay across from us had a block heater on, but I did not see that on any other cars...just curious. It is warm enough now it is not a problem.

 

It usually takes prolonged temps into the mid 20's to freeze a radiator when you have a car cover on. 30-32 won't do it overnight, especially it you ran the engine and had some heat in the system.

But I put a car cover on and a metal trouble light with 75 watt bulb behind the radiator on cold nights. I also have a little magnetic plug in heater from tractor supply, neat little magnetic thing that sticks to the oil pan. Not only keeps the block warm but keeps from having molasses like oil in the crankcase on cold mornings.

 

When I can I pull the car back inside the trailer overnight, but I'll still put the pan heater on to warm the oil.

 

BTW, this was posted on the other site. I'd really like to know the real facts here since we do run that track.

 

The car lost control after turn 9 between turns 9 & 10, not 8 & 9.

The car did not have a full cage, only a roll bar behind the seats.

The car travelled approx. 400 feet, over correcting twice before hitting the trees short of the barrier at the track cut-over.

It was a latteral impact into the passenger door which was pushed in more than a foot.

No tree limb entered the car, blunt force trauma was the COD.

There was a small fire, quickly extinguished by track personel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim P.

Those are the facts that I have been told as well. And there was no evidence of any anti-freeze on the track.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
McGyver

If I was in that right seat I would have been yelling 'BOTH FEET IN' as soon as the slide started. That way the car would have gone straight, away from the trees, and the worst result would have been flat-spotted tires. But then, there may have been mechanical issues which caused the accident. Too many factors we know nothing about.

It is a very sad incident to many families that will be grieving for a long time and my prayers are with them. Tom, RIP.

 

McGyver

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sterling Doc

Guys, lets not get carried away with speculation here. There are real people involved, living & deceased, and judging driver talent & predicting alternative outcomes through the internet is not appropriate.

 

Godspeed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mcmmotorsports
Guys, lets not get carried away with speculation here. There are real people involved, living & deceased, and judging driver talent & predicting alternative outcomes through the internet is not appropriate.

 

Godspeed...

 

Agreed, we don't need to lose sight of the fact that we just lost someone and nothing we say up here will ever bring him back to his family and friends. I understand that many of these threads on the internet have good intentions of preventing a tragedy like this ever happening again, but unfortunately, circumstances change in every one of these instances and when it is time to go, well....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua

My thoughts are with the family and friends of the instructor we just lost.

 

Part of the reason for internet speculation is the desire to have more control over tragedy than we do. Unfortunately we do not, especially in hindsight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Firebird Man
Guys, lets not get carried away with speculation here. There are real people involved, living & deceased, and judging driver talent & predicting alternative outcomes through the internet is not appropriate.

 

Godspeed...

 

I agree to a point, but since we do drive that track and tragedies such as this are so rare I for one want to know what happened and why. The only way to try and prevent it from happening again is to correct the circumstances.

 

I do not want any of you to be next, and I sure as heck don't want it to be me either. Tom was an instructor and family man and it is a tragic loss to all who knew him and even those like me who didn't know him but feel a kinship in that we're pursuing the same hobby on the same venues, and I also feel certain as an instructor he would want us to learn from this and if possible prevent it from ever happening again.

 

Unfortunately as time passes these type things get forgotten and we move on, so there really is no appropriate time to discuss it. No dishonor intended, if anything it is to acknowledge his contribution to the sport.

 

My condolences not only go out to the family but also go out to the driver, I cannot imagine a more sickening feeling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LMan

Well put, Gordo

 

 

With all proper respect for the specifics of this tragedy, examining in generalities how we can be safer should always be our goal, and if this helps us focus more clearly on safety, it will benefit all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kbrew8991
Well put, Gordo

 

 

With all proper respect for the specifics of this tragedy, examining in generalities how we can be safer should always be our goal, and if this helps us focus more clearly on safety, it will benefit all.

 

That's what I'd want people to do if it were me

 

between T8 losing Maduske in the tires and having a car reach the trees without going over a barrier first, it seems like that area of CMP does need some attention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
smokinjoe

In 07, I spun at the kink, went off trackright, through the tire barrier, through the trees.. and almost on to the front straight. In a very small, light car.. The barrier did little to stop me.

 

wreck1.jpg

 

wreck2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tufast

My condolences to the family of the deceased & my sympathy towards the driver who still has to live with this tragedy. Hind sight is 20/20 & this accident could of happened to a less powerful car just as easily. But with only my one time out on a track during my 1st HPDE1 last month at CMP, I can tell you that the tech inspection was a joke & many of the cars were to fast for the novices driving them. I agree that for HPDE (esp 1&2), the cars should have a limit to the allowable power they can produce (200whp is more than enough until you learn what the hell you are doing).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SNAKBITN

It would be hard to limit power as there are so many car's with well over that.Half the people that show up to these's event's would not be able to run.My first time on track was with a 600 rwhp gt500.The only way to try and make it any safer is to limit the speed and not the car's.

 

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Striker-7

My condolences to Tom and his family, and my thanks to the instructors who've put it on the line so I can learn this sport properly.

 

The horsepower limit for the lower DE groups is not necessary. Take it out of the hands of the newer student by running exercises, like the "4th gear only" momentum run I had during my initial DE at VIR. An RX-8 can fly in 4th, but not if it's trying to 'lug it' out of Oak Tree. As for the stump puller Corvettes, all it takes is three words from the right seat: "Knock it off!". If the student is going to be a hard-headed sort and not take instruction, park him/her. I've taken a cool-off pass through the pits at The Glen because my instructor was NOT happy with my performance, and it stuck with me. Next session was fun for both of us, because we were on the same sheet of music.

 

All the back-chatter in the various boards makes me think I fell in with a bad crowd. Between NASA-MA, TrackDaze and the NNJPCA (especially those guys!), I've never gotten near a track without the car getting a serious once-over in tech, good pre-run instruction and great on-track work.

 

Tim Bowser (DE2 newbie, retired USAF A/R instructor)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Honda-Junky
the tech inspection was a joke

 

I do agree that the NASA HPDE tech inspection really isnt that in depth, but to call it a joke is disrespectful to the organization that hosted the event you were in. If I recall, you were going to be driving a 2009 or 2010 model car, which most likely wouldn't have required much inspection at all because I would assume that it was already in very good operating condition. What would you change about the tech inspection? Did you witness something that made you feel unsafe?

 

It saddens me to hear that there was a fatality at CMP and my heart goes out to everybody involved.

 

Whatever the details of this incident are, it is another reminder of how safety should be a number one priority on the track.

 

<<<<<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dbright007
the tech inspection was a joke

 

I do agree that the NASA HPDE tech inspection really isnt that in depth, but to call it a joke is disrespectful to the organization that hosted the event you were in. What would you change about the tech inspection? Did you witness something that made you feel unsafe?

 

 

Tech inspection varies by region. If you are in Mass - your tech is probably very different than other regions for DE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jimbow

I understand why tech inspection cannot be much more than "brake lights work, helmet ok, tech sheet filled out"

 

1. It takes a lot of time to do much more. At an NCCC event with 60 cars it takes hours to check them all with 2 people in tech. For that event its brake fluid reasonably clean and full, battery tight, all 4 wheel hubs are tight, has seatbelts or harness, helmet OK. Imagine having to do that to 200 cars where more than half show up at 7 am Saturday for the driver meeting?

 

2. Liability issues. The NASA HPDE tech form says that you or your mechanic checked everything over before the event and you sign the form.

 

I check my car before every event, and a quick look over after each run. At CMP on Sunday I came off a TT session (4 or 5 laps) and had steam under the hood. Observed a leak and parked it for the day. Replaced an old hose, now everything is a year or less old. Doesn't mean one of the new hoses won't let go, just means I've done everything I can.

 

I've instructed first time students in high horsepower cars and track prepped cars, even a convertible once with no rollbar! Its all about student attitude, if you think there is a possibility the student will overdrive the car then reel them in at the first meeting. I liked the attitude of the high HP students I've had, all of them were "I want to drive my car home and I want to learn how to drive on the track" I even had one tell me the first session he probably wasn't going to get out of third on the first session. THat worked out great, no need to tell him shift here while showing him the line. The 4th gear exersize is good as well, had one want to shift at every turn. Had him down shift once going into a slow turn, carry that gear to the straight, then upshift and carry that gear until the slow turn. He smoothed right out.

 

Lets be careful out there!

 

(feeling great sadness for the Instructors family)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
getfast

 

The NASA HPDE tech form says that you or your mechanic checked everything over before the event and you sign the form.

 

^ this is the important part. The owner/driver is the one responsible for the car's track-worthiness no matter what gets re-checked at the event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...