Cobra4B Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Considering putting a cage in my Z06 and building it to ST2 specs... I know Phoenix is generally to go-to for Corvette road racing stuff, but I have a very competent speed shop about 10 minutes from my house. Are there any schematics for them to follow? Or do the have to interpret guidlines via text from from some rule book? Or do you typically take pics of other cages and say "I want that" etc.? Thanks, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 There's a whole section in the CCRs with the minimum requirements, tubing sizes, required tubes, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 Thanks... looked it over. How strict are they about being able to see all the way around welds? At 6'4" space is a premium for me so I would have any fabricator get the cage as close as possible to the interior parts of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 very good tech inspector question actually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Thanks... looked it over. How strict are they about being able to see all the way around welds? At 6'4" space is a premium for me so I would have any fabricator get the cage as close as possible to the interior parts of the car. If the welds are not 360deg, you will be sent home. if the cage does not follow the CCR guidelines, you will be sent home.I've worked in tech a few times, I've seen some things allowed because they were "ok". But I have never, ever, seen any infraction on the cage rules allowed. In the GL region, the cage rules are enforced. Bad welds indroduce the possiblility of loose skewers of steel to your "tire-barrier interface". Good cages save, bad cages kill. Be sure you get a good one. I would suggest installing a low seat (if you can get any lower) and a high bar. I was lucky enough that my cage guy was also well versed in body work, and suggested that, if he couldn't get all the way around the top of the bars, he could safely remove the roof, weld the cage, and replace the roof. You may want to look into this. Be sure you are present for the cage fab, sitting in your seat with your helmet, for the fitment stage. You want to be sure you fit before sparks are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 Yeah I know all fo this... I'm not saying that the welds wouldn't be 360 degrees, but that the bars may be tucked tight so an inspector can't see the back side. I converted my Z06 to a targa so the roof comes out like a coupe and I would remove all interior panels so much of the cage can be pre-fabbed outside of the car and then installed extremely tight to the interior. Oh and I allready have an ultrashield seat mounted as low as possible with Hardbar USA aluminum seat rails.... the seat sits in them and is basically on the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 a competent cage builder will know all the tricks necessary to pull this off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Yeah I know all fo this... I'm not saying that the welds wouldn't be 360 degrees, but that the bars may be tucked tight so an inspector can't see the back side. Ahhh no worries, we have fingers. Simply slip one back there and feel for a bead or a seam. You'd be surprised what some people have tried to get through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Hank P. Posted April 4, 2010 National Staff Share Posted April 4, 2010 We also use a flashlight and an inspection mirror. But to more directly answer the question, we do enforce the requirement that we be able to inspect the top of the cage for 360 degree welds. I understand the need to get the cage as high up as possible to maximize headroom, but that needs to be balanced against our ability to confirm that the welds are fully completed and therefore compliant with the CCR. FWIW, certain other racing organizations do not have this inspection rule, and some organizations do not specifically require 360 degreee welds. It shows in some of the cars that race with those groups. I have seen several cages that fit great and have passed tech in other organizations, but after very close scrutiny found that the welds were not completed. Unfortunately in some of these cases the racer did not even know that their fabricator had missed the welds. Hank NASA-RM Chief of Tech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 yes there are tricks and orders of assembly to being able to get 360 degree welds understand that 360 degree weld may not have been done with it in the position it is in when it is finished....and in corvetts even it you put the cage up against everything it is still lower than what the rules want it.. just thought i would pop on and let everyone know i am still here ...been steady ... 8 years and over 400 cars now ... everyone should be gearing up for the new season... if anyone need anything please give me a call 772 2199917 i amlocated near pbir in fla but get cars transported to me all the time..i am holding the base price on cages at 2500 -2600 for MIG welded DOM tubing ..depending on the wall thickness and diamiter of tubing required for your car...this is for the bars shown in the SCCA rule book... then there are options... if it is an aluminum frame itis extra work but i ahve done them before..optioins are mostly in the door bars...you will see many different styles..here.... any extra bars (x diagonals ect) are charged accordingly...ill do it how ever you want it...as long as it meets the rules and is safe. turn around on most cages is slightly over a week. if i am handling the interior, dash or mounting seats tow hooks ect it may be a little longer..and that work is charged buy the hour...i work on an appointment schedule ..when you set your date and send a deposit...i can order your tubing...you will know exactly when you car will be in and out of my shop... keep in mind a roll cage can be the worst thing you ever did to your car... or something that is just there..depending on how it is done and once it is in... it is in... and very diffcult to remove and redo...so price isnt everything.. my goal when i install a cage is to make in a way so when the driver is driving the car he or she doesnt even know it is there...notice how everything fits...notice the windshield and a pilar bars...then take a close look at cars at the track there is a difference you can see.. i also can do tig welded 4130 ..those cages are buy the hour...i tig weld all the drag race cages and chassis i do .. I also thought i would post a few pics of a few of the cars i have done recently...at least what i have on this computer... zo6 corvette came over from tampa.. this one was transported from jacksonville Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 22, 2010 Author Share Posted September 22, 2010 ^ Nice work... especially on the ZR1. Ever consider yanking the roof off and cutting out the OEM b-pillar and replacing w/ the main hoop? Or, ever consider notching a slot in the oem hoop and sliding the main hoop up in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 ^ Nice work... especially on the ZR1. Ever consider yanking the roof off and cutting out the OEM b-pillar and replacing w/ the main hoop? Or, ever consider notching a slot in the oem hoop and sliding the main hoop up in it? thank you ..it takes time and i ahve had alotof practice bending at this point i think i am over 400 cars in the last 10 years.. that could be done it ould give you some extra height..if the customer wanted to go to that extent..but most are still crying over the fact they just turned there precious vette that you couldnt even touch with oyour hands because it will eat the paint..you know the ones...into a race car.. the zr 1 was definately still a street car...he has others that are all out race cars...i accually epoxie the main hoop to the b pillar and the windshield and a pillar bars to the body...i havent figured out how to weld aluminum to steel yet so that is the best i can do...more tha willing to do more ..have it figured out even on teh zr1 with the aluminum frames.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 22, 2010 Author Share Posted September 22, 2010 From what I've read most shops will bolt/bond steel plates to certain areas on the chassis to weld the cage to when dealing with a C6Z or ZR1. I'd never track one of those cars... give me a steel chassis car all day every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 IIRC we hashed on this awhile back but I can't even remember the ultimate outcome... for PT/TT, is the above NASCAR style door bars (which, IMHO is done correctly by anchoring the lower bar to the frame rail in the door sill) going to cost modification pts due to additional attachments (6" off the main 6 pts)? Anchoring it like that is the correct way to do it, just curious what the rules say on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 From what I've read most shops will bolt/bond steel plates to certain areas on the chassis to weld the cage to when dealing with a C6Z or ZR1. I'd never track one of those cars... give me a steel chassis car all day every day. yes you have to make bacsically bracket that though bolt to the frame..and getting to the bolts involves cutting away parts of the body the stock 6 point thing only involves..oem spec racing..only most of the cars i see are modified..and go into the prepared class so any and all attachment points are allowed.. or they assess point which all my racers take because the beinifits of doing it are worth it.. the corvette posses some unique challenges ..when doing a cage in one...it is impossible to get the main hooop 2 inches above the drivers head..with out putting the hoop on the outside of the car because of the way the roof slopes down just behind the drivers head....and there is no head clearance even without a helmet anywhere in that car ...if you are taller than 5'11" or have tall hair ...you hair hits the roof without a helmet or roll bar and padding there...so the extra bends help get every bit possible .... the diagonal has to land within 12 inches of the corner.. at the landing it there gives more room for the seat back..where the head retraint goes a little more to the rear it also suppports the middle of the main hoop span ...making the top of the triangle a little more protective of both sides of the drivers head...so it it stronger .. the curved foot .is the way i do my joint..it is double thick over about a 6 to 8 inch span this gives the weld a greater contact surface and also adding strength over the drivers head...which it does.. and it looks better.. as i said a corvette is and extremely diffuicult car to do a cage in...the is so small inside..and the way the drivers sit in them with the big bulkhead right behind the seat..and the way the roof line is on the inside of the car ... the hoop has to be a little different just to be able to get a driver and a seat in the car..and get it as close to the rules as possible..yes ..the text book is good..but sometimes you have to do what you have to do..the tech inspectors know this...they cant give me crap about it not being 2 inches above his helmet if it is touching the roof skin.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 23, 2010 Author Share Posted September 23, 2010 I'm 6'4" and fit in them fine... I have a 2003 vert as my nice weather daily and have no headroom issues. I have the seat all the way down and all the way back with the seat back a few clicks forward from laying on the bulk-head (I hate driving laying down). In my racecar I have an Ultrashield seat mounted with Hardbar rails. The seat bottom literally sits on the floor and the carpet is all removed etc. I have plenty of room in the car as it's setup now, but my main concern is maintaining that room when the cage goes in eventually. I have a buddy with a nice ST2 car that was a former T1 car with a cage built by Phoenix... once in the car I fit fine, but getting in/out was difficult and the main front roof bar really blocked some of my line of sight. Thus... when it comes time to do a cage I think I'll yank the roof and sawzall out the OEM b-pillar. It's not that much extra work if you've done it before and it will allow the cage builder to get me maximum interior space. -Brian EDIT - Of course I could always just cut the roof and A-pillars 100% off and create a Corvette speedster racecar But then I'd need an enclosed trailer and a bigger truck both which I have no desire to own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 i agree you can fit it is an american sports car..and we are big.. it is getting the main hoop 2 inches above your helmet is what is impossible... and the angle of the hoop in the rear..makes it even more dificult ..i have ways.... the hard bar mounts are the way to go in the vetts..if you notice the windshield barand a piliar bars are out of sight...the drivers wont even know he put a cage in the car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 been busy at a few more..just to let everyone know i usually get busier after the first of the year so if you are thinking about it... give me a call at 772 219 9917..so i can get you on the schedule..ill need the car for about 7 to 10 days... thanks anthony finished this zo6 for breathless performance...aluminum frame ..full interior..ac heads up display everythiing is still there ..made it OMG tight fit.. this is a little 93 911 the yellow car here is a 350z i am in the middle one of he instructors down here...i have a boxster sitting in the other bay ..getting preped .. anyway if anyone needs anything please feel free to give me a call at 772 219 9917 thanks anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Racecarbuilders, going back to the thread on 9-20-10, the gray C6 the main hoop could catch you out. ccr 15.6.6 180 deg +-10. Not casting stones here the cages look real good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 In your last picture, how does the main hoop diagonal attach to the top of the hoop? It looks very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) In your last picture, how does the main hoop diagonal attach to the top of the hoop?It looks very strange. it just has a bend in the top and a long knotch..so it has a longer contact patch and offers more protection over the drivers head...it is all welded but may not get welded in the position you see it in the picture.. Edited December 17, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Racecarbuilders, going back to the thread on 9-20-10, the gray C6 the main hoop could catch you out. ccr 15.6.6 180 deg +-10. Not casting stones here the cages look real good. i under stand how the gcr reads fully...please every one needs to understand from an inpectors standpoint... it isnt his job to stick to the gcr to a t..and try to fail you cage..it is his job to make sure the cage is safe and keep you from getting yourself hurt..and that it at least offers the minimum potection required..as soon as you start adding extra bars and gussets it exceeds things really quick.. in the last part of the gcr there is exceptions can be made buy the inspectors at there discretion..some cars it is impossible to follow the gcr to a t and still get a driver in the car...the inspectors know this they are just there to keep people safe...in 10 years and over 400 cars for about every sanctioning body you can think of i have never had a cage fail an inspection....i have accually had my cars pulled aside in inspection lines to be used as an example of what the want....as with most things there is an ideal world and reality...and i have found that most inspectors are very realisitic..you can look at a cage and see pretty quickly if it is well constructed or not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecarbuilders Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) just wanted to post something..for those looking to get a cage installed i really try and run my shop as prfessional as possible and do what i say i will when i say ill do it ...i have 17+ pages viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24399 in the florida section saying i do.. unfortunaty i keep hearing horrible stories at the track about expieriences people have with roll cage guys... just posting this to help people be aware of what to look /lookout for..when choosing a cage builder ..be aware there are alot of back woods cage guys..out there they tell you what you want to hear but dont deliver..and have no business doing roll cages putting peoples lives a risk and some of these are so called "professional shops" i would like nothing more than to run these black sheep of my business ..out of business.. a roll cage is kinda like a tattoo it will be with the car for the rest of its life..you wouldnt got to the tatoo shop just because it is right down the street..or cheap you go to who is good..and has a good reputation..and you can see a nice portfolio when the time arrives that you are considering putting a cage in your car.. it is a big decision ...it is no longer going to be that street car..believe me when i say i understand the reservation in doing so most cages i see leave alot to be desired..but it doesnt have to be like that...unfortunatley yes a roll cage could be the worst thing you ever did to your car... or something that is just there you dont even notice....depending on how it is done ,,unfortunatley once it is in... it is in... it would be very diffcult to remove and redo...i am not saying everything i have ever done is perfect but i do try ..i would put any 10 of my cages up against 10 of anyone elses..take a close look at most of the cages at the track you can see a difference in how they fit compared to what you see here..... just saying when that day comes take the time to so choose your shop carefully..me being in the business..having worked in other shops..knowing a little bit what is out there...hearing what i hear from my customers for the last 10 years... just a few things to look /look out for... if at all possible go to the shop and meet the builder in his shop before you take your car to him ..if he does this type of work for a living he doesnt need to see it..to know what he needs to do.. when selecting a shop look for referances and a healthy protfolio..pay close attension to how everything fits..in all he cars..i have 5 books of pictures you can look at..and that isnt all of them.. i dont need to show you 5 of the same car..in 5 colors.....take notice of the shop in the background... is it there shop and or equipment in the background ..yes sometimes we move..i have seen pictures of cars in my shop on other peoples web sites.. pay paticularly close attension if they are new or have a limited portfolio.. talk with people they have worked for if possible..make sure they got there car back in a reasonable amount of time..look at the work the welding..ect..pictures are pictures ..real life is when you truely apreciate someones craftsmanship..or hacking it in..pm any of the guys you see there cars here at the track or on my site.. is it what they do full time??? or is it a part time gig??? or supplimental to there core business??? if it isnt what they do for a living..be careful ...i have been dong this full time for 12 years and 10 under my own name..and over 400 cars under my belt..i do work for brumos ..champion motorsports..and extreme speed the patron team as well as counless local racers.. that race car prep shop is fine for plumbing wiring and suspension....but probably isnt the best choice for your cage ...if they say they do it in house ??? are they going to buy some ill fitting kit and weld it in or are they going to custom bend it for your car..to your specs..to fit you?? every driver and car is a little different... the cage needs to be taylord to you..if they are truly doing it in house..you should see benders knotchers and a tubing rack in the shop.. even at that they probably prep shops usually only do a few a year..even in the slower times we are having i am still doing 40 cars a year have been as high as 75 a year..go to a roll cage specialist...most prep shops sub that type of work out because it is very dirty.....then who knows who is doing your car... realize price isnt everything..roll cage prices have been about the same for 15 years now..what was the labor rate 15 years ago .it is a tough business.. look for a fair price..understand extra bars and extra work should be charged for..if they are cheaper there is a reason...there isnt the profit margin in this business to give big discounts..it is very labor intensive.. just because the shop down the street doesnt make it the best choice.. i have cars transported to me all the time..from hours away because of the reputation and quality of work i do..you drive to the tracks ..take the time drive to a reputable qualified chassis shop .. even in this slow time..i still have a short back log...because of my following and reputation ...if you can get right in ..they dont have any work...there may be a reason....or even worse if you show up and the shop has 10 or 15 cars sitting there in differnt states of completion..that may look impressive..it is a HUGE red flag. if he only has 1 or 2 employees your car may end up sitting in the back collecting dust with the rest of them..he may have just needed your deposit.. small shops are fine ..they have very tight quality controle there reputation is everything to them and they work hard to keep it good...the owner is probably going to be the one doing your car..but they should only have the cars in the shop they are currently working on...possibly one ready for delivery...or next in line. those big shops take a steady flow of massive amounts of work to sustain..i have been 3500 sq ft and had 3 employes ..took massive work just to keep the overhead paid. you should not expect the chassis shop to work without a deposit.. it isnt good practice in any business to work without a deposit..a typical deposit is about half the expected bill ..with the rest do upon completion...if they want it all up front be careful...or if they ask for more money ..after the initial deposit..havent started your car...get your money back and get out...if it is an exceptionally large job..say over 10,000 something like a tube chassis .. i will ask for another 25% when the job is about 1/2 complete.. typical drag race chassis shops usually use ERW tubing..it is leagal for NHRA be careful..it is illeagal for road race caes ..it can split open in an accident...and you cant really tell after it is painted..DOM is more expensive..i have even been i shops where they uses water pipe..make sure they know exactly what they need to be using..if they are a drag race specific shop ..they know how to bend cages and weld ...i do molly TIG welded drag race chassis as well ....but started my career working for orbit .. my heart has allways been with road racing... some shops dont really know where to begin with a road race cage..again look at the portfolio is the shop a mess ..yes, they do get messy during the day but is it this prodject and todays mess or 5 prodjects worth and weeks mess..if there are parts and lunch scattered all over and you cant see the tops of the benches.and the floor looks as though it hasnt been swept in a month ..beware..it should be reasonably clean and organised... once you have selcted a cage guy..there are a few things you should be aware of in dealing with chassis shops...you do have a part in the outcome of you cage.. if possible the roll cage should be done before any paint...i allways say my wife doesnt put on her makeup then get in he shower there is an order to things...unfortunately with race cars.at this level that isnt how it usually goes down..it is crazy dirty job you will have to clean your car when it is done...i vaccume them a few times in the process and they still need cleaned when i am all done...wax it before you drop it off so the metal dust isnt right on your paint..and dont let it get wet before you wash and clay bar it..after you pick it up....the metal dust will rust ...i tape off all the windows and tops of the fenders if i have to work over them ..your shopp should as well those sparks off the grinder will embed themselves in your glass... understand those beautiful pro cars start life as a race car...empty no wiring no glass nothing inside of the car..sometimes they are acid dipped and stich welded ..then when they are caged they go to the body shop and get painted inside and out..i understand most of us dont have that budget...the welding sparks are going to leave burn marks on your floor nothing you can really do about it..i put a welding blaket down to minimize it but they still find there way ...just realize the extent the pros go to to get the look you see...those guys spend 10,0000 getting the car preped a tig welded molly cage and it all painted..it is all in the finishing...after the cage guy. if he asks you to remove the interior before it arrives..do so..dont expect him to do it for free..it takes almost as long to deal with the interior as to do the cage...once you are putting a full roll cage in it ...admit it is a race car..remove the ac and interior..you arnt getting the best of both worlds you are getting the worst...a heavy race car..with a cage that is closer to you than it needs to be...and a street car...that you look silly climbing in and out of ..you can still drive it up to get ice cream or the ocasional street romp or car hang out without an interior..but once you start racing you wont want to romp on the street anymore..and you wont want the weight of the stuff in the car weight is everything in a race car...but the weight of a roll cage is over ridden buy the stiffness it gives the car.. most customers acually pick up speed after insalling a cage..be careful the first time out after installing a cage ..that you dont over correct ..the car is going to be much more responsive... if you sent the car on a transporter but "forgot" to give the driver the deposit ..send it when you say you are going to for the amount you agreed to... keep his attitude right..buy doing your part..and give him the opportunity and the funds to do the best job that can be done.. i would hope you would at least give me consideration..and an opportunity to bid the job..but if you do for whatever reason .watch out for these things..they are all out there.. thanks and i hope this helps people have better expieiences with the roll cage guys.... anthony breon racecarbuilders.com 772 219 9917 Edited January 15, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 In your last picture, how does the main hoop diagonal attach to the top of the hoop?It looks very strange. it just has a bend in the top and a long knotch..so it has a longer contact patch and offers more protection over the drivers head...it is all welded but may not get welded in the position you see it in the picture.. I just can't wrap my head around how that offers more protection to the driver. Would you mind explaining your thinking on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted December 18, 2010 Author Share Posted December 18, 2010 thanks and i hope this helps people have better expieiences with the roll cage guys.... Anthony that was an excellent post. If I was remotely close to your shop I would be talking to you about my cage install. You touched on many of the things I'm dealing with now. I have an excellent speed/fab shop 5 min down the street who has everything from an engine dyno room, in ground dynos, full machine shop, chassis fab area, front area with retail store, etc. etc. etc. Their primary business is drag cars, LSX motors, and Govt contracting (They build the motors that go in the Navy Seal speed boats) etc. etc. But they're not a road race shop and don't typically do road race cages (they have build motors for a few track guys). That said, if I give them the specs and some pics etc. I'm sure they can get it done. On the flip side there's a road race specialty shop about 3 hours away that has nothing but rave reviews. They're a little more expensive, but I don't have to explain anything to them at all. Furthermore I'd guess a "name brand" cage could help with potential resale should that time ever come. Going back and forth between the two. ~Brian PS - Good point about the cage specs being guidelines... I was wondering about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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