Good Teams and Drivers NOT WELCOME HERE

[KW78]

To All concerned,

 

I didn't know where to post this to warn NASA racers about this. Hope the word gets out.

 

Kyle

NASA Rocky Mountain Div.

 

From the Chumpcar Forum

 

"Good Teams and Drivers NOT WELCOME HERE!"

 

That is message that was broadcast LOUD AND CLEAR at our PUEBLO Chump Car event.

 

We are a team of SCCA racers that have years of experience at Pueblo. We all have Spec Miatas and race nationally. We all have raced multiple classes over the years and among are team credentials are 2 lap records at Pueblo, and many Divisional championships.

 

IF EXPERIENCED RACERS ARE NOT WELCOME IN YOUR SERIES, YOUR RULES SHOULD SAY THAT!

 

You (John and Chumpcar) threw a bunch of novices (With only a very few exceptions) out at pueblo without even offering a test day to learn the track. Then, you hold it against us that we were fast. (And we weren't fast, btw. I was disappointed that we were on average 4 seconds off of our spec miata times with a non-restricted 1.8 that was 150 pounds light of spec miata weight). Additional, we were the only team that we observed, that kept our pitstops to the 5 min minimum rule. The Other miata team would lose an additional 2-3 laps per pit stop, and the early leader on Sunday would lose 4-5 laps.

 

IF YOU DON'T EXPECT YOUR "RACERS" TO WANT TO COMPETE FOR THE WIN, YOUR RULES SHOULD SAY THAT!

 

What is it your rules do say? Well it is obvious to anyone observing this mess that we knew your rules better than you did. We got called cheaters as soon as tech saw the coil over collars.

 

REALLY? Show me a rule that prevents that!

 

There are NO PERFORMANCE MODS that are illegal in your rules. We were told we should have had a stock suspension? WTF? Your rules are governed by one thing, the budget! PERIOD.

 

YOUR RULES illustrate how to manage the budget, including selling off parts.

 

Then we got hit with "Well if your grandpa gives you a $100 Cadillac, is it a $100 car?" What bullshit. This analogy doesn't apply. The inference was that we got deals other people couldn't have. That is complete crap.

 

We brought every craigslist ad we used to sell the items off of the car, the original purchase of the car, and the confirming emails for when people wanted to come up and get the parts, AND their Name and Phone number if someone wanted to call to verify.

 

Once people knew what we were doing, they thought it was cool and would even try to give us thingS we might need!

 

ALL THIS DOCUMENTATION WAS REFUSED TO BE REVIEWED! AGAIN, WTF??!! IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW YOUR OWN RULES, WHY BOTHER WRITING THEM.

 

YOU SHOULD SCRAP YOUR RULEBOOK AND SIMPLY SAY THIS IS A "JOHN CONDRON INVITATIONAL SERIES AND THE RULES ARE WHAT I SAY THEY ARE ON THAT DAY." (WARNING: This is the reality, not the "we are racers that want good fair racing" speech given at the drivers meeting. If racers are looking for that, CHUMPCAR AIN'T IT!!)

 

We enjoyed talking and racing with the other competitors, so for those interested (OBVIOUSLY NOT THE ORGANIZATION) here is an overview of the car build:

 

We started with a defunct project left over from an autocrosser/spec miata hopeful that already sold his "good" car.

 

- 94 Miata soft rollover, no airbags, salvage title, broken hardtop, ripped soft top, koni SA shocks (1 broke) with lowering springs, 122K running drivetrain, spare wiring harness, spare bits and pieces. Wrinkled rear quarters, bad LF fender. Paid $850. (Probably too much)

 

Sold: Good seats w. speakers $150, good hood and RF fender $225, rear bumper assy $125, Rear finish panel $150 (sold immediately), good doors w. elec windows & mirrors $225, Good dash $100, Aftermarket Stereo w. cd and speakers $50, good interior carpet and floormats $40, good trunklid $75, Rt headlight assy $50.....

 

We sold more and it is all documented, but the above items already make the car free.

 

We bought crash damage pannels from other racers to complete the car, and didn't pay more than $20 (Bent hood) and traded a 6 pack for most (reported at $10 in our docs) pieces. For example the front bumper is from a car totalled at PPIR, the pass door was from a total at RA, etc. etc.

 

HERE IS THE COMPLETE LIST OF GO FAST PARTS:

 

Cold air intake off of ebay $20 (was for a 99 but we modified to fit a 94)

Hawk Blue Brake pads (under the 2x rule, doesn't count towards the $500)

Used Mazdaspeed exhaust system $120 (Stock downpipe, and rest of exhaust system doesn't count towards the $500)

Dirt Modified coilovers from the Fairgrounds swap meet $60 (4 at $15 each = $60)

Used Eibach springs $40 ($10 each from EBAY)

SA Koni's - came in the purchase, 1 is broke (Lowering springs were crap)

PVC Pipe to center spring perches from HOME DEPOT $12

Swaybars - 3 sets of stock ones were in the orig purchase.

Rear swaybar: I bent a front one sharper with a hydraulic press, cut it short and welded tabs to if for the endlinks

Front Swaybar: I welded 2 fronts together on tabs and cut the excess off of the second one, mounted with stock hardware.

Swaybar endlinks - I donated wore out adjustable ones (we counted as 40$)

New Dunlop tires (doesn't count towards the $500)

 

THAT'S IT FOLKS- ALL THE GO FAST PARTS total $172 towards the $500 budget. We counted other things like synthetic oil and spark plugs, some hose and clamps... etc. We've used $310 of the $500 budget.

 

NOW YOU KNOW WHY WE ARE SO F'N PISSED. WE BENT OVER BACKWARDS TO FOLLOW THE RULES, AND WERE BRANDED CHEATERS.

 

"If your Grandpa gives you a Cadillac for $100, is it a hundred dollar car?" Bullshit. We were blatantly told no one else could have done this, and "You can't get a $500 miata where I come from!" Again, bullshit.

 

SO BOYS AND GIRLS, LETS SEE WHATS ON THE WEB TODAY (04-04-2010 for when the ads expire)

 

Hmmmm.... Here's some:

Miata w. Hardtop $500 GEE BINGO RIGHT OFF THE BAT

 

Sell the hardtop and you start with a free car.

 

Another $500 Miata

 

Well that took about a minute of searching...

 

Here's the swapmeet that comes to my area:

 

Swapmeet

 

Of course if you want new coil overs in the budget at $39 each:

 

new coil over (These are the exact ones I bought used for $15 each. A little beat up but very workable.

 

SPRINGS?? :

 

Used Springs

 

Cut a 340 12" in half and you have the correct rate miata fronts

 

Rear Springs

 

Cut those in half and you have the correct rear miata size and rate.

 

OH WAIT, MAYBE JUST BUY IT TURNKEY:

 

new 4 corner coil overs $50!

 

HEY CHUMPCAR, GET YOU HEADS OUT OF YOUR A$$ - WE JUST MADE A MIATA RACING SUSPENSION FOR $50 - $80. BEFORE YOU INVOKE THE "GRANDPA" RULE WHY DON'T YOU DO A LITTLE RESEARCH.

 

IF YOU DON'T WANT MIATA'S TO SHOW UP - WRITE THAT IN YOUR RULES!

 

IF YOU DON'T WANT RACE PARTS ON CARS - WRITE THAT IN YOUR RULES!

 

The bottom line is that a Miata is perfect for Chumpcar racing. The NA series is 15-21 years old, run forever, are reliable enough to finish (unlike soooo many others), have a market for used parts, and HAVE BEEN RACED FOREVER WITH CHEAP RACE PARTS.

 

We understood the risk we were taking with Promoter John Condron's fledgling overextended race organization with about 6 corner workers for a full size track, we were not prepared for the HYPOCRISY!

 

Very Disgusted-

Team Nimbly Bimbly.

[Trevor57]

How could you read this and think you would be able to pass that car off?

 

 

5.1.1. Rather than go through all the receipts… whether real or not (yeah, we’re real good at

Photoshop, too!), or the BS stories on how you found your car in an abandoned gold mine and

bought both the mine and the car for $100, or the fact that you got that 1998 Toyota Sentra with

86,000 miles on it for $500 from your Aunt Ethel and Uncle Buck (you are their favorite nephew,

right?)… REGARDLESS OF ALL THAT CRAP… we look at the basic car value. And, we can

easily confirm it by pulling up immediate comps on CraigsList or eBay or KBB or other webbased

car sites. It’s easy and it’s fool-proof.

5.1.2. If you absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt feel that you’ve got a $500 crap-can… but

everything on the Internet says $1,500… then you better bring all the receipts (whether real or

not) and all the documentation you can pile into a shoebox. No, not a file cabinet – a shoebox – or

a nice three-ring notebook. We’ll look at it, and we’ll discuss it… but don’t get your hopes up.

See Section 5.1.3.

5.1.3. ChumpCar’s Acid Test for $500 Value:

Finish building your ChumpCar and, when it's 100% complete, wheel the car out

in front of your home. Jack the car up and set the car on cinder-blocks, or a stack

of 2x4's, just so the car is off the ground. Take the wheels off of the car (they’re

exempt from the value); take off the brakes (also exempt); remove the seat &

harness (exempt); and, remove the roll cage (exempt). Put a "Make Offer" sign

on the car.

What would happen?

Option:

A) Someone would offer you $500 or less for the car.

B) The City would slap a ticket on the car as an abandoned vehicle.

C) Your neighbors would file a lawsuit against you for breaching the CC&R's of

the housing community in which you reside.

D) A meth dealer takes up residence in your car and starts manufacturing the

stuff using the exhaust manifold to heat up his brew.

For ChumpCar, if any one (or all four) of the above were to happen, your car

passes the $500 sniff.

If, for some unknown reason, someone were to drive by and offer you $1,200 for

the car... or $600 for just the transmission... you're probably toast.

[KW78]

How could you read this and think you would be able to pass that car off?

 

 

We assumed they would follow their rules.

 

5.1.1 The "Comps" from craigslist are provided above. Those are for outright $500 miatas, not $1000 dollar ones to sell stuff off of to get to $500. And from multiple areas of the country. And it's even easier if you go the $1000 level.

 

5.1.2 "reciepts ... well look, discuss...." They refused!

 

5.1.3 Acid test: take the exempt stuff off of this and you tell me....

 

http://kevos2k.smugmug.com/gallery/11664769_PrTjq#822743574_dvqek-A-LB

Link

[Trevor57]

So what happened? It looks like you got to run right? Have you run lemons, or chump car before?

[Cheap_Thrills]

Cool, I can pretty much build a Spec Miata for $500 + safety equip/tires!

 

I don't know much about Chumpcar, but I read about the Infineon event on Jalopnic. I don't care what anyone says, a $500 Miata doesn't do a 1:50 around that track, and do it for 24hrs. From what I gather, thats faster than the Spec Miatas (maybe they ran a shortened turn 11 or something, I don't know). But from what I heard from a guy that ran at the first Chumpcar @ Portland, there were several cars that were full on racecars running.

 

So, the only way to make it fair is to make it a claims race. For the podium cars...anyone can offer $500 or trade their car for it ...so if you win by overspending and covering it up, you screwed yourself over.

[Cheap_Thrills]

Had time to read your post a little more...maybe I'm not understanding.

 

You said your baseline car was free because you sold "good hood and RF fender $225, rear bumper assy $125, Rear finish panel $150 (sold immediately), good doors w. elec windows & mirrors $225"

 

Thats where your logic gets sketchy to me. If replacement items were donated to the project off of another car or from spare parts, it applies to your build price, those aren't freebies. And you can't buy a set of doors, hood, fenders for $20 each or a six-pack from a fellow Miata racer and expect be in the spirit of the race.

 

According to your phoenix craigslist link, this car has bad transmission and slave. So it's not a $500 car. But, by your logic, you could sell the broken trans for scrap for $20, then a fellow Spec Miata guy could sell you a working trans and slave for $20 (maybe justify it because it was making a "wierd noise") and you'd be OK. Maybe it's within the letter of the law, but a person should be called out on it.

 

Not calling you a cheater, you probably just didn't hide it as well as other teams. As they say about the paddock at Lemons races, "It's like the Shawshank Redemption, everyone grins and says they're innocent."

[ZipZap]

Deja vu. All over again.

 

Sometimes when I can't really tell who was at fault in a situation, I make a judgment reflecting the involved parties. After seeing this thread on several forums, all I can say is thou doth protest too much, methinks...

[L8Braker]

This team didn't get it at all... and they were offered an out by the Chump folks. Want the full story? Want to see what the others at the race thoughts about this team? Go to the ChumpCar forum and see what the buzz is about. http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/index

 

All I can say, it's a good thing these guys didn't go to a LeMons event. They would have had their car crushed and handed back to them in a box. Chump is far more racing oriented and knows how to deal with illegal cars and whiners.

[Trevor57]

LOL what an ass. That was a fun read. I hope the OP remains a forum spectator from now on.

[obzezzed350]

Anyone else notice that Tony Stewart entered a few cars in a prior Chumpcar race?...seems he really is still passionate about the level he started at.

[944-Spec#94]

Guys,

The problem is there are two types of racers.

 

1) Guys that want to race hard and clean.

2) Guys that just want "be out there".

 

Chump & LeMons are really good for the #2 guys. Build a cheap crappy car and drive around the track till it breaks. Then drink beer till the event is over.

 

However for guys like #1 these series are total frustration.

 

Normally you read the rules and build a car that conforms to the rules and will perform the best it can. However in those series you get the book thrown at you if you "take it too seriously".

 

 

Let me tell you I will never race in those series since I do take my racing seriously. I don't cheat and never will, but just like the original poster I have no desire to build car for a 24 hr race that has no chance to finish. That seems pointless to me. I am going to built a solid car. I am gong to research things and buy the best crap I can for dirt cheap. I will prepared it to the best I can given the rules and drive it as hard as I can for as long as I can.

 

Probably then I will be labled a cheater and run out of town one way or another. All because I take my racing seriously and want do my best in every race I run. For me just "showing up and turning laps" dull. I might as well do DE. If I race I want to complete. I don't have to win to be happy. I just need to know I gave it 100% both on the track and in legal car prep to be satisfied.

 

The probelm is Chump & LeMons are just not geared for racers who want to actually race.

 

BTW.. I don't know any of the members of this team, but this is at least the 3rd time I have seen/heard about guys who know how to race and build cars get run out of these cheap car series. Seems to me best to not even try to run as the expectation will never match.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

its very easy to get a $500 car to last - two words - "mechanical sympathy". Find some if you don't have it

 

- KB, who has had great fun at LeMons, and says those who are knocking it without trying it need to do it or shut it. Where else are you going to get 12-24 consecutive hours of track time outside of NASA's super serious big budget 25hr race all the way out in CA?

[L8Braker]

I've been an SCCA racer for over 20 years and a NASA racer for over 15. I've run in 4 pro-series but I'm still just an average driver. I'm a serious racer, just not that rich. I can tell you, LeMons and ChumpCar are real, fun, great racing venues... at least, LeMons was until they started getting too wacky and and letting 150 cars on the track at the same time. I also don't like their penalty program all that much. LeMons is now a parking lot experience. But ChumpCar limits the field and is run by racers. The racing is hard and clean. I've run in 2 events now and plan to do 2 more (Hallett and Texas). The cars may be crap but that's the entire idea. That's their focus. They want to bring racing back to the 1960s, based on cost and "run what you have, not what you buy." Read their forum posts and you'll see a lot of NASA (and SCCA) folks there -- people you might know. Chump is doing 23 races this year, 12 are 24-hour events. There's not an SCCA or NASA region that can do that. My hats off to them and i hope that they do really well.

[cmckinney]

OK, OK, these guys can run their mouths all they want to about having a cheated up car blah, blah, blah. What they do not understand that is no matter what was "given" to them for free still has a worth associated with it, not a cost. These are two very different things. My team and I were able to win the VIR event and not blow the rest of the competitors off of the track by 6 seconds a lap. We won it by playing everything smart and running consistent laps and by following some sort of a pit strategy. If you look at mylaps, we were turning some pretty decent laps but they were consistent with the rest of the field. Heck, the USS Enterprise got the fastest lap. Ask anyone who knows me, I am as competitive as they come and I was trying to win VIR. You can come out to these events and be competitive, you just need to abide by the rules that ChumpCar has in place. There is always one spoiled racer that thinks they know more that the organizers, and in this instance these guys couldn't be more off. They have touted at their driving experience more than I would have liked to hear, you know what, if they were that good why would they feel that they had to cheat to win? Then not abide by the rules when they got called out on it. They acted like they had a choice if their car got claimed or not. When you sign up, you agree to the rules of the sanctioning body, and the organizer always has the final say. If these guys are the racers they say they are, they should have known this coming in. If you ask me, they felt their place in the racing soceity with all of their experience placed them above the rules. I can bet you this, if Chump would have wanted to claim Tony Stewarts car after VIR he would have been more than happy to let them have it. You want to know why? It was because he actually brought a $500 car to a $500 race.

[Trevor57]

Guys,

The problem is there are three types of racers.

 

1) Guys that want to race hard and clean.

2) Guys that just want "be out there".

3) Guys who drive like dicks, and show everybody how much better they can build, and drive, and don't have an interesting theme.

 

Lemons and chump car are great for 1 and 2

 

 

Fixed that for you.

[944-Spec#94]

I thought every one in racing wanted to show they could drive better than at least somebody else? You know, compete!

 

Only a few may win races, but that does not stop everyone else from trying. I for one race in a effort to beat my class competitors. Sometimes I win, but most of the time I don't . Even so I am happy if I can beat the next guy by either driving better, or putting a better set-up on my car. If I try my best and I get beat, fine. I will shake his hand and congratulate him.

 

Is that not what RACING is all about. Why is that if you actually want to have shot at winning you are a dick?

 

Seems to be that if you show up at one of thse cheap car races with hopes that maybe you might have the skill to drive the car faster than anyone else or might have the skill to build the most solid $500 car you are the enemy.

[Trevor57]

I didn't say trying to win makes you a dick. (we would have won in our "class" if not for a black flag with 15 minutes left in 24 hours.) Being a dick makes you a dick. what these guys did is out of the spirit of the rules. Anybody that doesn't understand that, should NOT go to chump car, or LeMons. with 130 cars in a field there is always somebody to race with regardless of vehicle prep.

[LMan]

We all have Spec Miatas

 

When I got to that, I knew how the rest of the post would go

[L8Braker]

Whats really a slap in the face to ChumpCar is that the Chump guys gave this team the win on Saturday even though there was a lot of complaints against the team --- they paid this team a $1,000 purse plus gave them an awesome trophy that looked like a million bucks. Then, the Chump guys offered these idiots an out for Sunday and they spit on it.

 

If they didn't like it, they should return the money and the trophy.

[Cheap_Thrills]

I thought every one in racing wanted to show they could drive better than at least somebody else? You know, compete!

 

Only a few may win races, but that does not stop everyone else from trying. I for one race in a effort to beat my class competitors. Sometimes I win, but most of the time I don't . Even so I am happy if I can beat the next guy by either driving better, or putting a better set-up on my car. If I try my best and I get beat, fine. I will shake his hand and congratulate him.

 

Is that not what RACING is all about. Why is that if you actually want to have shot at winning you are a dick?

 

Seems to be that if you show up at one of thse cheap car races with hopes that maybe you might have the skill to drive the car faster than anyone else or might have the skill to build the most solid $500 car you are the enemy.

 

From what I read, I think the issue was not them reading around the rules and finding clever ways to build the best $500 car. I didn't think it was a problem that they found cheap coilovers and fabricated some springs and fabbed stiffer swaybars. That was cool and in the spirit of the race. If it had really been done under the spending cap, not using their fuzzy math where they put their own value on replacement parts after selling off much of the car. There's just no way a $500 car does the same lap times as a fully prepped 20K Spec Miata (when you account for their 220 treadwear tires vs spec's RA-1).

 

By the way...I think I know of a way to add 10+ HP to my 944Spec car, within the rules...should I do it?

[944-Spec#94]

 

By the way...I think I know of a way to add 10+ HP to my 944Spec car, within the rules...should I do it?

 

 

Two serious points on this.

If you can find legal way to add 10 hp you have two choices

 

1) Do it and get away with it for 2-3 events until we find it. Once we find it everyone will know and do it too (if it is cheap and easy). If not we will change the rules for 2011 and close that loop hole.

 

2) tell me what it is and I will close the loop hole right now.

 

 

When I write and update 944 spec rule I expect guys to build the best car. I have tried over the past 8 years to find loop holes and close them down before things get out of hand. This is why chips and headers were allowed, but no longer. We found that some guys were taking advantage of that and as a series made the decision to go back to stock. For those that may have had those special parts we did not penalize them. How could we? They had followed the rules. It was OUR failure as series directors that allowed the loop holes in the first place.

 

So right now I am confident there is not 10 hp gainer in our class. If there is and it not easy or cheap expect the loop hole to be closed down once it becomes apparent. If it is easy and cheap then will all do it since 10 hp would be great for these cars.