April Rules Addendum

[Jeremy C.]

Hi all,

 

Please look over the new rules addendum.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/HC_rule_addendums_4-23-10.pdf

 

 

Thanks,

[RCarroll]

Jeremy,

I think it would be a good idea to spell out in the rules addendum what pistons and what heads are legal with what blocks so there is no confusion for people that are building or have B20's.

 

IMHO

 

Ron

[ITAIntegraLS]

HC is becoming a BS class as usual. Changing things after we spend thousands building.

Also If someone has a B20Z2 block they cant even race? It looks like it isnt classed.

 

Edo

[Redstone]

What is the point to have two different weights? All b20 blocks are identical. Only differnce being pistons.

 

Please explain this rule change in more detail please. It couldn t be any more vague.

[ITAIntegraLS]

Why cant they say:

P75-b20= 2275lbs

P8R-b20=2300lbs

 

I think this is the right rule.

[ITAIntegraLS]

so basically you guys make people spend more money by changing the engine instead of having to add weight.

 

We were already barely able to make the races, and now we can't even race because we have to spend more money that we don't have to build another engine to race in H2.

 

unless the rule is changed to allow the JDM head, we're pretty much unable to race this year. have fun guys.

[AustinG]

Why cant they say:

P75-b20= 2275lbs

P8R-b20=2300lbs

 

I think this is the right rule.

 

^^ This.

 

All of the blocks are identical, we're allowed to update/backdate the pistons to meet the compression limits. The only other differences are camshafts(can change to Crower), Intake Manifold(can change to Skunk2/Blox), then we have the P8R head that comes on specific JDM blocks, and they're the B20B blocks.

 

The rule is hastily put together, and not well thought out. You're not looking at how many competitors have block built, or are building them, and you're not looking at the weights of the surrounding motors.

 

From the B18B block I have, I can go to a B20 block for a whole whopping 25lbs...maybe I should ask for a weight reduction, because 200cc has to be worth more then 25lbs, or maybe the weight should have gone P8R-B20-2325lbs and P75-B20-2300lbs.

 

You're now forcing people that already have a B20B1/B20Z1 built block and a P8R head to throw out their entire block combo in order to keep the higher flowing P8R head. I might just grind off the Engine code and tell you that if you want to find out what kind of a block it is to pay the tear down fee...then you wont find out what kind of a block it is because it will meet the spec for all B20's, as they're internally identical.

[Jeremy C.]

Jeremy,

I think it would be a good idea to spell out in the rules addendum what pistons and what heads are legal with what blocks so there is no confusion for people that are building or have B20's.

 

IMHO

 

Ron

 

 

Ron, I think a complete cheat sheet would be a very good idea to come up with because I don't think people read the rules carefully enough before jumping into a build. Putting together a complete list for all the engines is more work than I want to do on this, but I'd certainly include it in a glossary of some sort if someone wants to build one!

 

It's pretty simple here for H2. If the motor code you are building wasn't available from Honda with the parts you are putting in it (or on it), then it's not legal (unless otherwise specified in the rules).

[Jeremy C.]

What is the point to have two different weights? All b20 blocks are identical. Only differnce being pistons.

 

Please explain this rule change in more detail please. It couldn t be any more vague.

 

 

I'll try Graham.

 

We have 3 (oops, 4 now that Edo pointed out the B20Z2) different B20 engines.

 

JDM B20B

USDM B20B1

USDM B20Z1

USDM B20Z2

 

The B20B was made available through Honda in Japan with the P75 head, the P8R head, the PF3 pistons, and the PHK pistons. So, you can use any of those parts when you construct a B20B engine.

 

The B20B1 was made available through Honda in the USA with the P75 head only, and the PF3 pistons only. So, to meet the rules, you must rebuild the motor with those parts period.

 

The B20Z1/2 was made available though Honda in the USA with the P75 head only, and used the PHK pistons only. So, again to meet the rules, you must rebuild the motor with those parts.

 

I'm not sure what's so vague about this. This is the way H2 has always been. You can't take a B20Z block and use a B20B (P8R) head on it. That is no different than taking a D16A6 block and using a D16Y8 head on it (per the rules). It's just not legal and the rules are expressly written to prevent that sort of thing.

H2 is very very similar to H4 in engine prep. Must close to H4 than H1. So, why people think they can mix and match parts is unclear to me.

 

Another for instance. If you are using a B16A motor, you can't use B16B pistons in it even though the compression limit will be slightly under the max. It's not legal! That is no different than taking a B20B1 engine and putting B20Z1 pistons in it. Again, just not legal.

 

I hope this helps to clarify the confusion surrounding the engine prep rules in H2.

 

 

If there are other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

[Jeremy C.]

Why cant they say:

P75-b20= 2275lbs

P8R-b20=2300lbs

 

I think this is the right rule.

 

Edo, would that really fit with the rest of the H2 rules in the slightest?

[JW Racing]

Thank you Jeremy and RC.

 

I am actually happy the K24/K20 head now is fixed,and also glad I got to enjoy the 2 races I had with the Frank motor and had a chance to explore more HP,a new build and parts combo while I had the opportunity.If I can find tricks in the grey area..then many others can as well.I am just happy I know what part is what.

 

As for the B20, I think they have it right.If this type of thing is not policed now,it will get out of control. Rule 10.3 a has been around for a while, and while it is clear as day to me,to some it needs clarifying; such as this addendum for both classes.I would like to compare flow results of the p8r vs the p75 head as well,for giggles.

 

Keeping a leash on things is a good idea in many aspects..The words "Hybrid" and "any honda part" can get easily confused with "build anything honda".

[ITAIntegraLS]

Ok good you asked me that . In this case i want to see more rules for the B16A engines as between 1989 and 2001 Different B16A engines were made. With different compressions Why dont you get that fixed as well.

Now h2 is looking like the old H1 where the class got killed now you are doing it to H2. I will get you More info for the B16 if you like. Im not sure why the B20 engine is burning a a hole in everyones ass.

 

Edo

 

 

Edo, would that really fit with the rest of the H2 rules in the slightest?

[Jeremy C.]

Ok good you asked me that . In this case i want to see more rules for the B16A engines as between 1989 and 2001 Different B16A engines were made. With different compressions Why dont you get that fixed as well.

Now h2 is looking like the old H1 where the class got killed now you are doing it to H2. I will get you More info for the B16 if you like. Im not sure why the B20 engine is burning a a hole in everyones ass.

 

Edo

 

 

Edo, would that really fit with the rest of the H2 rules in the slightest?

 

 

Edo,

I don't know why you think I'm down on the B20. I've had 2 of them built and believe in their capabilities. I'm also putting together a legal B16 and will try both engines in the cars I look after including my own.

 

You are correct in one thing though Edo. The B16's need to stick to the same rules as every other H2 competitor. If someone has a B16A2, then they need to stick with B16A2 pistons and not use JDM B16 P30 pistons because those were not offered in an B16A2.

 

Again, this isn't a new rule. This is what the rule has been since day one.

 

It's certainly a "technicality" in the rules, but it's what we have to work with. If we allow engines to start swapping parts around from motor to motor, H2 won't be H2 any longer.

 

The comments in here are the reason the B20 engine was clarified.

 

Would you have a better suggestion on how to create a new set of rules that allows the stuff you want to do while not allowing the B16A block to use the B16B head, or the D16A6 block to use the D16Y8 head?

[ITAIntegraLS]

Jeremy its good this thing just solidified my next Project. And it does not involve HC.

 

Edo

[Redstone]

To be honest, we are small amature series with a bunch of guys who like racing hondas. Most are on a seriously tight budget and care barely make all the events.

 

Rules like this are gonna kill the class and series and make people stay at home. We need to change this asap. You know a b20b block is identical to a b20z. If we have a max compression rule and are allowed the pr8 head then why does it matter what block we start with?

 

Can we Just specify that any b20 block may be used with the b or z pistion and p75 or p8r head? What makes my b20b w/ phk pistons and p8r head any different than a b20z with the same parts? Nothing...

 

Stop all these stupid rule changes and such specific rules. You should he dong this to encourage people to race and make it easier for everyone. Being so specific is just lame. As long as people Arent running forged rods/pistons and spending big bucks, let's just keep it simple and easy.

 

It's just another thing make me over hc. Redstone might skip nationals and the rest of the year Off if things don't change and get better.

 

Jeremy is know your trying to follow the rules to the t, but this is over the top. Please consider rewriting the rules.

[ITAIntegraLS]

The rules cometee are killing H2.

 

Edo

 

 

 

To be honest, we are small amature series with a bunch of guys who like racing hondas. Most are on a seriously tight budget and care barely make all the events.

 

Rules like this are gonna kill the class and series and make people stay at home. We need to change this asap. You know a b20b block is identical to a b20z. If we have a max compression rule and are allowed the pr8 head then why does it matter what block we start with?

 

Can we Just specify that any b20 block may be used with the b or z pistion and p75 or p8r head? What makes my b20b w/ phk pistons and p8r head any different than a b20z with the same parts? Nothing...

 

Stop all these stupid rule changes and such specific rules. You should he dong this to encourage people to race and make it easier for everyone. Being so specific is just lame. As long as people Arent running forged rods/pistons and spending big bucks, let's just keep it simple and easy.

 

It's just another thing make me over hc. Redstone might skip nationals and the rest of the year Off if things don't change and get better.

 

Jeremy is know your trying to follow the rules to the t, but this is over the top. Please consider rewriting the rules.

[AustinG]

So...if I put a PR4 head on a B18B, or a P75 head on a B18A we're going to have a problem as well, right?

[Andrie]

Also confused why the k24 engine can not use k20 head. K20z3 head is the cheapest. Brand new from the dealer is $1300 complete with cams, while the others cost double that. It is identical to k24 head casting wise. It also has similar flow and combustion chamber size.

 

I have 4 k24 engines. 2 accord block and 2 tsx block. 3 tsx heads, and 1 k20z3 head. The reason I bought it because again it is pretty much identical but much cheaper cause they are made in Mexico.

 

The superior head is the 2006 and up tsx head which has 1mm bigger intake valves. I'm dissapointed with this ruling. Cause it means if I blew or damaged one of my tsx head which cost near $3k, I can't replace it with identical k20z3 head that cost $1300.

 

Btw, I agree with Graham, this could potentially kill a lot of participant.

[Jeremy C.]

Also confused why the k24 engine can not use k20 head. K20z3 head is the cheapest. Brand new from the dealer is $1300 complete with cams, while the others cost double that. It is identical to k24 head casting wise. It also has similar flow and combustion chamber size.

 

I have 4 k24 engines. 2 accord block and 2 tsx block. 3 tsx heads, and 1 k20z3 head. The reason I bought it because again it is pretty much identical but much cheaper cause they are made in Mexico.

 

The superior head is the 2006 and up tsx head which has 1mm bigger intake valves. I'm dissapointed with this ruling. Cause it means if I blew or damaged one of my tsx head which cost near $3k, I can't replace it with identical k20z3 head that cost $1300.

 

Btw, I agree with Graham, this could potentially kill a lot of participant.

 

 

Andrie,

 

The rules were always like the are now, but through a simple mistake, the allowance for swapping the heads was opened up at the end of last year. It's just been fixed now back to what it was for all of 2009. The rules for H1 K motors used to specify that for K motor stuff, you were to revert to the H2 section of the rules and that stated that you couldn't mix and match parts. There was a reason for that and now it's just back to what it was...

[Jeremy C.]

To be honest, we are small amature series with a bunch of guys who like racing hondas. Most are on a seriously tight budget and care barely make all the events.

 

Rules like this are gonna kill the class and series and make people stay at home. We need to change this asap. You know a b20b block is identical to a b20z. If we have a max compression rule and are allowed the pr8 head then why does it matter what block we start with?

Can we Just specify that any b20 block may be used with the b or z pistion and p75 or p8r head? What makes my b20b w/ phk pistons and p8r head any different than a b20z with the same parts? Nothing...

 

Stop all these stupid rule changes and such specific rules. You should he dong this to encourage people to race and make it easier for everyone. Being so specific is just lame. As long as people Arent running forged rods/pistons and spending big bucks, let's just keep it simple and easy.

 

It's just another thing make me over hc. Redstone might skip nationals and the rest of the year Off if things don't change and get better.

 

Jeremy is know your trying to follow the rules to the t, but this is over the top. Please consider rewriting the rules.

 

 

I really don't understand why any of you guys are up in arms about this.

 

Did none of you really know that H2 was like this from the START???

This isn't something new ya'll, so what's with all the "The sky is falling" talk? I just don't get it.

 

The new rule to allow the B20 motors that are required to run the P75 head to run lighter didn't change ANYTHING with the B20B's.

Did everyone really not understand that it's not legal to mix and match parts in H2?

 

Seriously, I don't understand all this talk?

H2 is simply H4 with motor swaps!

 

 

If you guys don't like the way things are, write a rules request. Follow the process. Complaining on the forums about something isn't going to change anything. Want the RC to look something over, write the request?

 

If you have to write the request, it shows that you took time to research what you are suggesting and formulate some ideas on how to implement it!

Complaining about it with no solution helps no one.

Put together a well thought out rules request explaining your position and what you would do to fix the issue you say exists with the rules. Think about the ramifications that the change might have and include any of that info for discussion.

 

I'm all for allowing any B20 to run any B20 head, but how do you accomplish that without destroying the integrity of the current (and multi-year old now) H2 rules?

 

Graham, think about the question you posed that's in bold for a sec and see if you can come up with a rule that will stand and not be applied to anything else in H2?

Does everyone really want another slower H1 class with mix and match parts of everything? Is anyone even thinking about Tech at all in their complaints? How will it work with the new proposed rule?

The reason H1 works is because everything is allowed to be mixed and matched.

Now, some of you are proposing that we allow some engines in H2 to mix and match while other can't? Is that really gonna work?

 

Again, I don't understand why none of the vocal people on this thread understood how the rules in H2 worked until now.

 

Hopefully none of this is coming off as hostile in the slightest because it's certainly not my intention at all.

I'm just simply dumbfounded by the apparent lack of understanding that it seems most have regarding H2.

 

What did everyone think this rule meant?

10.3 H2 Limited Preparation Vehicle Engine Preparation

This section is intended to clarify the engine preparation rules specific to Limited Prep Vehicles:

 

a) The entire engine assembly, (cylinder head and block) MUST be constructed entirely of Honda/Acura OEM parts. Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that particular engine code. Updating and backdating of parts for that engine code is permitted. No aftermarket parts are permitted in, the “bottom end,” of a Limited Prep Vehicle engine (except were specifically stated). Example(s): 1) A USDM D16A6 may not use pistons from a D16ZC engine and a head from a D16Y8. 2) A USDM B18C1 may not use ITR crank and pistons with ITR head and call it a B18C5. 3) A JDM B18C (GSR) may use ITR crank, pistons and ITR head and call it a JDM ITR engine since that is the proper engine code for both engines.

 

 

There is a very good reason that rule is in place for H2. How would you "tech" H2 cars without it?

Think for just a few minutes about all the different engines allowed in H2 and how many different parts cross over from one motor to another.

 

The only other way I see for it to work is even more complicated than what's currently in the book!

Suggestions?

[Jeremy C.]

Guys-Gals,

 

I don't want anyone to take any of my posts out of context.

All of them are meant to add to the conversation and expand the knowledge of everyone reading this. None of this stuff is personal at all.

 

I'm really just trying to answer questions you guys are proposing in an area where everyone can read and understand them so they don't get asked over and over.

 

If my responses are not helping, I'll gladly stop responding.

 

Thanks for the responses as it does show that you guys care about the series enough to discuss it!

Good night.

[joe barile]

1) Seriously, I don't understand all this talk?

H2 is simply H4 with motor swaps!

 

2) There is a very good reason that rule is in place for H2. How would you "tech" H2 cars without it?

 

The only other way I see for it to work is even more complicated than what's currently in the book!

Suggestions?

 

1) The H2 class has become very far from "H4 with motor swaps". What about the carbon fiber hoods, fenders and lexan glass components that are allowed? What about the brake upgrades allowed? What about the intake mani swap that is allowed? What about the cams now allowed? There's probably more...

2) When was the last time any was actually "teched" (read torn down)except for safety items?

3) OT-How can it be claimed that there is "no data" for the B16 motor when we all know that there was one in another NASA exec's car?

The current rules process seems so bad that NASA felt the need to add 2 paragraphs (1.2 and 1.3) to the beginning of the rule set to try and placate some of the growing concerns.

Seriously Jeremy, please don't take this wrong, but the more you post, the worse it gets.

Maybe we could hear from someone else on the rule committee (Helms) (Ryan) (National Office) etc...

Good Luck

[Jeremy C.]

Thanks for the comments and outside perspective Joe.

 

I won't bother commenting anymore.

[Jeremy C.]

Thanks for the comments and outside perspective Joe.

 

I won't bother commenting anymore.

 

Oh, and regarding the H2 is like H4, I really only meant in regards to building an engine! Sorry.

[ITAIntegraLS]

HC has become what scca IT class was it was do as we tell you or leave.

that is the reason NASA became so bit fast it was a racer ran rules that we all enjoyed. But now its becoming worse than scca. You will see many racers leave HC

and it will get smaller or die like IT did.

 

Edo