April Rules Addendum

[caliviper]

Man, you guys are shooting the messenger. Everytime new rules come out, I feel bad for Jeremy. He's like an IRS agent giving you a tax update.

 

I see a few complaints, but no solutions from anybody, as Jeremy asked for. I agree with him -- instead of bitching, come up with some solutions, and submit them to the rules committee. Toss them around here amongst each other to bounce ideas back and forth, first.

 

Look, we (the racers) all want everybody to race. The more cars running, the more fun. So those that have complained here, what EXACTLY would you change in the rules, and WHY? And then ask yourself, does this affect other rules or cars in H2 -- and if so, do THOSE need to be ammended?

 

Edo, I realize you are upset, but I don't think these rule changes have dwindled the field. Everybody I know that isn't racing is because of one of two things:

1) Engine failures & upkeep cost -- holy shizzat, just in socal there must have been a total of 10 engine failures so far this year, in H2 alone.

 

2) Economic conditions - they are working twice as much for half the pay. They can't afford race tires, let alone everthing else that goes with it. When the economy turns around, we'll see the groups swell up again. And then maybe, some folks can take the weekends off instead of having to work them to bring in $$$.

[ITAIntegraLS]

I dont care anymore i did in the first posts for the b20 to be regulated by the head designation.

Im done with this BS called HC im gonna move on.

 

Edo

 

Man, you guys are shooting the messenger. Everytime new rules come out, I feel bad for Jeremy. He's like an IRS agent giving you a tax update.

 

I see a few complaints, but no solutions from anybody, as Jeremy asked for. I agree with him -- instead of bitching, come up with some solutions, and submit them to the rules committee. Toss them around here amongst each other to bounce ideas back and forth, first.

 

Look, we (the racers) all want everybody to race. The more cars running, the more fun. So those that have complained here, what EXACTLY would you change in the rules, and WHY? And then ask yourself, does this affect other rules or cars in H2 -- and if so, do THOSE need to be ammended?

 

Edo, I realize you are upset, but I don't think these rule changes have dwindled the field. Everybody I know that isn't racing is because of one of two things:

1) Engine failures & upkeep cost -- holy shizzat, just in socal there must have been a total of 10 engine failures so far this year, in H2 alone.

 

2) Economic conditions - they are working twice as much for half the pay. They can't afford race tires, let alone everthing else that goes with it. When the economy turns around, we'll see the groups swell up again. And then maybe, some folks can take the weekends off instead of having to work them to bring in $$$.

[Cash Is King]

Jeremy,

 

As an outside spectator getting into HC I just want to add that HC is grassroots. After reading this thread the rules make more sense but as a grassroots series it can be a little more unbarred.

 

Personally, I think it doesn't make sense to limit H2 so much when H4 is that way. When moving up in class it makes sense that there's more room to breath. We're moving up because more power is allowed, cars are faster, racing is better. Why shut it down to H4 status. H2 - as the numbers indicate - should be closer to H1 than H4 IMO. Because if it should be closer to H4, call it H3 instead.

 

Anyways, I just think atleast this addendum maybe can be held off until 2010 since it was unclear at the start of the season. The 2009 season is in full swing, engines have been built and broken in. If it must stay as you say then so be it but maybe we can, instead, make sure it's clear for 2010 and let 2009 slide?

 

Helping out Edo, I know that he even doubted racing this season so it makes sense for him to be upset about it. This makes it impossible for us as a team to continue in 2009 because we don't have an unlimited budget and a shop full of spare engines to just pop up with a modified spec for Aprils Addedum change.

 

Suren

[peterswarts]

Hello Folks,

 

I think people are upset that they have missed a key point in the rules. Now that the B20 is broken out, it put even more emphasis on that rule that has always been there.

 

10.3.a in the H2 rules does state "Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that particular engine code."

 

Bottom line is it seems like this has not been followed which of course would make it not be legal even without the rule clarification/adjustment. This just makes completely clear. Even though the 2010 rules only allowed for B20's as a whole, the 10.3.a section covered against the head change. Example 2 in the rule section is very similar to this scenerio.

[RCarroll]

For all of you that have the wrong combination, it is very simple, write a rules request. We all know that the B20B, B20B1 and the B20Z1/2 blocks are the same. So write the request to state that any piston and head can be run with any of the B20 blocks. Once that is approved you won't have to build a new motor or leave H/C. It doesn't do any good to complain about it on here.

[mikeski38]

.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[mikeski38]

Jeremy,

 

I agreed that the clarification is correct in keeping with the "spirit" of HC2 rules. However, you comprimised that integrity long ago with allowing...

 

-intake manifold swaps

-ITR cams for b16's

-a/m cams for b20's a F's

-a/m valve train

-and as earlier pointed out, carbon bodywork, brake swaps, lexan.

 

H2 is a cheaper H1, and has grown huge because of that fact. Now you come on here and justisfy this rules clarification by saying it is in the spirit of HC2. Why not go back 6 months and re-read the internet whipping you got over the b20 cams where you were agruing for a/m engine parts. This was YOUR rules request, you blew it writing it, don't screw all the b20 guys by re-writing it less then 6 months before nats.

 

BTW, It sucks when one of our directors has to clarify that he is building a "legal" b16 for testing.

[JW Racing]

1) The H2 class has become very far from "H4 with motor swaps". What about the carbon fiber hoods, fenders and lexan glass components that are allowed? What about the brake upgrades allowed? What about the intake mani swap that is allowed? What about the cams now allowed? There's probably more...

2) When was the last time any was actually "teched" (read torn down)except for safety items?

I agree,with you on 1 and 2. H2 should have H4 brake and body rules.How different is H1 from H2 really besides tire size and a metal deck lid? My H1 car, in 2 K series engine configurations already, is actually very competitive with H2 and not really any faster as some say it should be.

Let me clarify,I have a K series H1 car(unlimited and hybrid class) and have to build it under H2 rules?..that is so funny. To keep the K-series down(to be competitive with B series) is holding HC progression back(Bernardo's engine and now my engine are pieces of history,and are legend!). in H2 and H1 form,K series is better and cheaper to run then B series,did you know that?! When people begin to realize B series is dead,I will be so happy you all stop the soap operas about these 15 year old B series motors.

 

For #2, I don't ever think cars will be scrutinized as some hope they would.I have brought this up before,and was told,"the racers are to police themselves,and it is their responsibility to be legal". If one opened a few engines you will be surprised at what you will find.I know I have been, because I have been re-building some local H2 engines...there are some HP discrepancies out there.

 

Another point is - A USDM 99 Civic Si B16A2 has 10.2 cr and can go up .5 per rules.Well the JDM gen II has 10.4 and with .5 has more CR...which engine will have a few more HP? If a particular owner is not real Honda part savy and runs a lower spec engine without knowing,how can he have a level playing field unless the engine is built to "JDM spec"? But he can not because the 10.3 rule.. this is the same thing as B20 engines.

 

I also agree with Manny about the deal.Don't shoot the messenger,if everyone is so upset.Attack the entire RC,not just Jeremy,write a request and fight back.

[AustinG]

 

Another point is - A USDM 99 Civic Si B16A2 has 10.2 cr and can go up .5 per rules.Well the JDM gen II has 10.4 and with .5 has more CR...which engine will have a few more HP? If a particular owner is not real Honda part savy and runs a lower spec engine without knowing,how can he have a level playing field unless the engine is built to "JDM spec"? But he can not because the 10.3 rule.. this is the same thing as B20 engines.

 

You're interpolating the H4 and H2 rules. H2 has a hard cap on the Compression regardless of where the engine came from, it's 10.9:1 CR. H4 allows a bump of 0.5 CR.

 

The biggest problem that I see is that the rules committee could have gone with something similar to the suggestion that Edo put up earlier, strictly limiting the weight based upon the use of the P8R head, as opposed to writing a restrictive rule that makes a number of engines illegal. They were not proactive in their creation of this rule, it actually limits the number of the competitors from running, which will dwindle the field. If they're going to apply the same logic to all of the rest of the engine codes, the cost has gone up by quite a lot for a number of competitors.

[Jeremy C.]

Hello Folks,

 

I think people are upset that they have missed a key point in the rules. Now that the B20 is broken out, it put even more emphasis on that rule that has always been there.

 

10.3.a in the H2 rules does state "Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that particular engine code."

 

Bottom line is it seems like this has not been followed which of course would make it not be legal even without the rule clarification/adjustment. This just makes completely clear. Even though the 2010 rules only allowed for B20's as a whole, the 10.3.a section covered against the head change. Example 2 in the rule section is very similar to this scenerio.

 

 

At least someone see's what I've been saying!

In reality, this isn't a new rule at all.

[slammed_93_hatch]

I've said it before, but Jeremy thank you for being the "communicator" between the racers and the RC, you get a lot of shit (from me included) but i don't think most of it is directed at you. More towards the RC as a whole.

 

Jeremy pretty much has to "tow the company line" in situations like this because no one else from the RC speaks up, or vary rarely do they.

 

 

The H1 K series thing doesn't make sense though, at least not any more. The k20a heads aren't any better then the K24a2 heads.

 

 

Stock cams work better on a TSX head then a TypeS/K20a head, (CRV wouldn't work as it doesn't have the LMA for the VTEC).

 

The 06 TSX cams are equal/bigger any other cams, so that is what all k24 guys should be running.

 

As to the B20 deal, this was more of just pointing out something that it would seem many people didn't realize.

 

I wouldn't be throwing paper at some one who didn't have the correct "matching" parts.... Just like i wouldn't throw paper at some one who had a B16a3 block with a 99-00/b16a2 head (you can figure that out.)

[ITAIntegraLS]

I tought the HC leader should be smart wise and know the rules very well. You knew most of us were gonna build that combo why didnt you point out that rule that you point to every other post back then. Before us that have no more money to fix that mistake or race? Im just very dissapointed in this things.I dont know what to do. I really want to race with only 3 weeks left for the next race and my race budget is -3k im not able to do it.

 

Edo

 

Hello Folks,

 

I think people are upset that they have missed a key point in the rules. Now that the B20 is broken out, it put even more emphasis on that rule that has always been there.

 

10.3.a in the H2 rules does state "Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that particular engine code."

 

Bottom line is it seems like this has not been followed which of course would make it not be legal even without the rule clarification/adjustment. This just makes completely clear. Even though the 2010 rules only allowed for B20's as a whole, the 10.3.a section covered against the head change. Example 2 in the rule section is very similar to this scenerio.

 

 

At least someone see's what I've been saying!

In reality, this isn't a new rule at all.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[AustinG]

At least someone see's what I've been saying!

In reality, this isn't a new rule at all.

 

 

Jeremy, they were all on the same spec line prior to this rule change, so it really is a change, if you think that this isn't a rule change...

 

10.3.a The entire engine assembly, (cylinder head and block) MUST be constructed entirely of

Honda/Acura OEM parts. Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that

particular engine code. Updating and backdating of parts for that engine code is permitted. No

aftermarket parts are permitted in, the “bottom end,” of a Limited Prep Vehicle engine (except

were specifically stated). Example(s): 1) A USDM D16A6 may not use pistons from a D16ZC

engine and a head from a D16Y8. 2) A USDM B18C1 may not use ITR crank and pistons with

ITR head and call it a B18C5. 3) A JDM B18C (GSR) may use ITR crank, pistons and ITR head

and call it a JDM ITR engine since that is the proper engine code for both engines.

 

They were following the rules, which allowed updating/backdating for the "B20" engine, note that the 2010 rules does not separate out the varying types of the B20 blocks.

 

The example #2 is for creating a "hybrid" engine, or something that was never produced from the factory. In this case, they were faithfully reproducing something that came from the factory. I don't know enough about the D-series to comment upon the #1 example.

[AustinG]

For those that wanted to know the Flow Rate of the P8R head and the P75 head:

 

Realize that the P8R flows as well, or better then the B16 head.

 

Stock P8R @ 28" - via a report from Portflow

Lift - Flow

.050 - 43

.100 - 83

.150 - 124

.200 - 163

.250 - 187

.300 - 202

.350 - 218

.400 - 234

.450 - 246

.500 - 256

 

Stock P75 @ 28"

Lift - Flow

.050 - 43

.100 - 77

.150 - 118

.200 - 158

.250 - 176

.300 - 184

.350 - 195

.400 - 204

.450 - 210

.500 -

[Jeremy C.]

I've said it before, but Jeremy thank you for being the "communicator" between the racers and the RC, you get a lot of shoo-shiddily-diddily (from me included) but i don't think most of it is directed at you. More towards the RC as a whole.

 

Jeremy pretty much has to "tow the company line" in situations like this because no one else from the RC speaks up, or vary rarely do they.

 

 

 

Thanks Jimmy. I do try and communicate, but it usually seems like it's all in vain.

 

 

If you were so smart Mr Director why did you make the same mistake by building the same illegal B20 combination for your customer. I tought the HC leader should be smart wise and know the rules very well. You knew most of us were gonna build that combo why didnt you point out that rule that you point to every other post back then. Before us that have no more money to fix that mistake or race? Im just very dissapointed in this things. "Mr cam gears are legal in h4" I dont know what to do. I really want to race with only 3 weeks left for the next race and my race budget is -3k im not able to do it.

 

Edo

 

 

As this topic seems to be going down the path of personal attacks on me, I'll close with saying that you are mistaken Edo.

The motors I had built for my customer were 100% legal.

They were JDM B20B engines with the original P8R head. So, please don't spread mis-information about me or my customers.

 

 

To all who would like to see a change.

Write up a request and submit it to me! I'll submit it to the HC rules committee for review. It really is a tough rules scenario to write and once you actually sit down, read through the rules for H2 engines 4 times over, then try to come up with a rule that produces the result you want without any unforeseen consequence's, you'll likely have a different outlook on what you are trying to request.

[JW Racing]

Austin,I work very closely with Portflow and can tell you the p8r head flows 210 in H2 form.Plain and simple,if you can flow 250 or more,it is ported.I can provide flow charts(real ones from portflow) if someone needs a point proven.The p8r and p75 head have the exact same ports,the only difference is the intake valve size, and it does very little in the gains.When the guy who cuts your heads tells me what one has,why would I doubt him?

I want to see the actual scan of that porflow chart on that 250cfm p8r head, I call BS or porting.!

 

I know what's going out out there,and there are so many tricks.One example,There are heads out there,fully ported,that have been media blasted to look like stock cast and no one knows it's ported by looking at it...the dyno and flow charts do notice though.There is alot of alot of smoke and mirrors out there.

 

Jimmy-That chart is an error and been passed around the k20 forum too long.I will post real charts from all K series heads so we can show the public the real deal.

[BrianZ]

At least someone see's what I've been saying!

In reality, this isn't a new rule at all.

 

 

Jeremy, they were all on the same spec line prior to this rule change, so it really is a change, if you think that this isn't a rule change...

 

10.3.a The entire engine assembly, (cylinder head and block) MUST be constructed entirely of

Honda/Acura OEM parts. Cylinder head and internal engine parts must be OEM parts for that

particular engine code. Updating and backdating of parts for that engine code is permitted. No

aftermarket parts are permitted in, the “bottom end,” of a Limited Prep Vehicle engine (except

were specifically stated). Example(s): 1) A USDM D16A6 may not use pistons from a D16ZC

engine and a head from a D16Y8. 2) A USDM B18C1 may not use ITR crank and pistons with

ITR head and call it a B18C5. 3) A JDM B18C (GSR) may use ITR crank, pistons and ITR head

and call it a JDM ITR engine since that is the proper engine code for both engines.

 

They were following the rules, which allowed updating/backdating for the "B20" engine, note that the 2010 rules does not separate out the varying types of the B20 blocks.

 

The example #2 is for creating a "hybrid" engine, or something that was never produced from the factory. In this case, they were faithfully reproducing something that came from the factory. I don't know enough about the D-series to comment upon the #1 example.

 

Austin -

You point out exactly why this rules clarification needed to be posted (for the B20's). You quoted the rule "Updating and backdating of parts for that engine code is permitted." and then gave the example of a B20. That is not a full engine code, and I think this is the mistake people have been making.

 

Side note - As part of the RC I freely discuss any concerns or issues the competitors may have directly with them and try not to discuss it thought public forums.

[Marcel D.]

I'm outside HC for the moment and hoping to get into it in 2011.

I think that there is some people that need to get off Jeremy's back and let him do his job, I don't think he has an easy job trying to explain what should be understood by just reading.

By trying to get into HC the first thing I did was sit down infront of my computer and print the rules and read them.

It seems that engines were built without a clear understanding of the rules and now there is complaining about it. I really feel for you specially after spending that much money but really the rules as I read them are very specific and clear.

Rules are there for a reason and they have to be observed to the T. We might not like them but have to follow them.

 

If money is a big problem why not just go to the junk yard and buy a complete engine that meets the rules and go have fun.

After all isn't that what is all about.

[clock]

Glad I lucked into a legal combo for my build....

 

At what point will the RC think it is time for a rewrite of the rules? You can't always say "write a rules request". RR only address very small topics in isolation. If you just keep layering one RR and addendum after another, with no unified vision any rule set will just become pile of sediment.

 

The competitors are asking for a consistent rule set that encourages close competition, predictability, and low cost. Why not try to give it to them? Why are you surprised when people get mad when decisions are made that are blind to things like the supply chain of the motors we run? Why do you call foul when you change rules halfway through a season and people get mad? It's ridiculous to be defensive.

 

If I were in edik's shoes, I would be irate. And the lawyer speak would not calm me down.

 

Maybe there should be a rules request for a general charter for hc, one in which contains a deadline by which technical and sporting regulations must be completed by before a season is to commence.

[clock]

Now, my obligatory picture post:

 

"Come off it, Mr Dent,", he said, "you can't win you know. You can't lie in front of the bulldozer indefinitely." He tried to make his eyes blaze fiercely but they just wouldn't do it.

 

Arthur lay in the mud and squelched at him.

 

"I'm game," he said, "we'll see who rusts first."

 

"I'm afraid you're going to have to accept it," said Mr Prosser gripping his fur hat and rolling it round the top of his head, "this bypass has got to be built and it's going to be built!"

 

"First I've heard of it," said Arthur, "why's it going to be built?"

 

Mr Prosser shook his finger at him for a bit, then stopped and put it away again.

 

"What do you mean, why's it got to be built?" he said. "It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses."

 

He shifted his weight from foot to foot, but it was equally uncomfortable on each. Obviously somebody had been appallingly incompetent and he hoped to God it wasn't him.

 

Mr Prosser said: "You were quite entitled to make any suggestions or protests at the appropriate time you know."

 

"Appropriate time?" hooted Arthur. "Appropriate time? The first I knew about it was when a workman arrived at my home yesterday. I asked him if he'd come to clean the windows and he said no he'd come to demolish the house. He didn't tell me straight away of course. Oh no. First he wiped a couple of windows and charged me a fiver. Then he told me."

 

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine month."

 

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anybody or anything."

 

"But the plans were on display ..."

 

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

 

"That's the display department."

 

"With a torch."

 

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

 

"So had the stairs."

 

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

 

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."

 

A cloud passed overhead. It cast a shadow over Arthur Dent as he lay propped up on his elbow in the cold mud. It cast a shadow over Arthur Dent's house. Mr Prosser frowned at it.

 

"It's not as if it's a particularly nice house," he said.

 

"I'm sorry, but I happen to like it."

 

"You'll like the bypass."

 

"Oh shut up," said Arthur Dent. "Shut up and go away, and take your bloody bypass with you. You haven't got a leg to stand on and you know it."

[ITAIntegraLS]

One more thing here which the new rule opened up.

 

JDM b20B can use PHK and P3F with the P75 and P8R heads.

 

USDM B20B1 only came with the P3F pistons which means they cannot use PHK or P8R head.

 

USDM B20Z1+2 came with the PHK pistons And still cannot use P8R head must USE P75.

 

PHK=Hight compression US And Jdm piston

P3F= Low Compression US and JDM Piston.

P75=US and JdM head.

P8R= Jdm Only head.

 

So which is easier to police and check the 6 different combos or this?

 

B20 Any with P75 head 2275lbs

b20 Any with P8R head 2300lbs

 

And still limit the compression to 10.1:1

And to know who has what on the sticker on the windshield we can write

B20-P8R or B20-P75 this will make it much easier.

 

Edo

My best opinion and to keep it all real and in 1 page instead of 2-3 pages just to police at the track

[JW Racing]

Edo I like the idea,but if you do that,I think we will have the same need with the others and then there are too many weight/head combos to keep track of.Adding even more layers to the sediment.

 

As for the k24,if the TSX head does flow more then the K20 head,then not allowing k20 head is no big deal.I already tore my motor apart and if they go back to allowing the k20 head on 2.4 then I will be irritated.It seems the RC needs some brushing up on K series.I am going to provide stock k series cylinder head flow charts to the RC for the record so we can put the wishy washy digression to rest.

 

Unless the top cars are inspected,dyno'd and cam doctored after every race,we can never cap the grey area manipulating,it will be like the oil spill in the Gulf of mexico.How can we police porting and valve guide chopping without tear downs,how can we police cast cams at every race.How can we police Aftermarket Pistons and rods at each race? We can not.The biggest problem I see, is that we all want to be in the most even equipment as the other racer and just let the driving do the talking.We can never have a spec series with so many Honda chassis..unless we have 3 different spec engines.Also Spec headers and intakes,max tire width,open shocks and brakes.

[Andrie]

As for the k24,if the TSX head does flow more then the K20 head,then not allowing k20 head is no big deal.I already tore my motor apart and if they go back to allowing the k20 head on 2.4 then I will be irritated.It seems the RC needs some brushing up on K series.I am going to provide stock k series cylinder head flow charts to the RC for the record so we can put the wishy washy digression to rest.

 

I did this in 2007. When we moved from K20 to run K24, we flowed my K20 head with K24 TSX head at Comptech. This is because everyone on the internet do a K20 head swap and uses K24 bottom end. We did not find any significant differences.

 

Again, when the new (2006 Civic Si) came out with their head, it is the same casting with K24 TSX head, and we flowed it and it is again similar. The reason is Civic Si head is very cheap, and it is a good buy from dealership. So it is a big deal of not allowing K20 head. The price of 2006 civic Si head is less than half of any other K series vtec head!!! This might not affect me now since most my head are TSX head. But int he future if I damage a head, I don't want to spend $2.5K when I can spend $1K for the same head.

 

Nowadays, the internet community are smarter and more experienced. They realized the advantage of using K20 head on K20 block is not the head itself. Rather the camshaft on the type R and the VTC gear allowing 50 degree. IF you just put this 2 on TSX head, it will result on identical performance.

 

That being said, there are also new development since 2006 TSX came out. It is now the head and cams to have. The head is better than any K series vtec head cause it has 1mm bigger intake valves. The cams are also really good and better than any, even the type R cams. However, this will not work with full 50 degree cam gear. You can only or I say should only use 45 degree.

[JW Racing]

I agree with the cost part Andrie,for sure that is a big deal.So is the performance of the K20 head,because I gained 13hp on the dyno just between a TSX head and my Type R head.This is using the 25* vtc.The potential for 260hp dynojet is there,I was not far away with a under built 24/20.The TSX head flows about 25-30cfm less than the PRB heads where we test down here. Look at the VT sheets from RTR on the RSX,why did they go to PRB heads on the TSX block? I rest my case.

Now if you look at the CRV head,it is very cheap(less than the Si) and easily found.Plus it flows the same as PRB and it blows the tsx flow away,that is why the drag community loves them.

 

Let me say this though,RC should make an exception for your beast.How about only you get to run the K20 head...just like you get to run Blox cams and I don't... how's that for fair.

[JuanTushag]

so who ported their head and had it media blasted?