HPDE traffic

[cmchopeful]

There is some excuse for the drivers. They are new, or they are newish and frustrated. Whatever. There is NO excuse for the instructors that are in the car. If their driver didn't have it together enough to follow their instructions to point people by then they should make the driver pit. If the instructor didn't have it together enough to tell the driver to point by then they shouldn't be instructing.

 

In general, I agree.

 

That being said though I point the biggest finger at NASA. HPDE 1 & 2 groups running together is a BAD IDEA. You can talk all you want to about learning experiences, but being stuck in traffic like that stinks. And putting the two groups together like that IS going to cause traffic problems. They tried it in the Southeast region for a while, and if they had kept to it, and I had still been in DE1 or DE2 then I would have quit coming. Which would be a shame because I have made a lot of friends down here with the NASA-SE group.

 

This, though, I have to disagree with. The entire reason for existence of the HPDE-2 group is to provide a "safe" place to work on mastering the skills the driver has accumulated in HPDE-1 with an instructor in the car. At some point, the HPDE-1 driver needs to be pitched out of the nest, and sent out on their own to practice what they've been taught, and one of the safety valves is the fact that there are a bunch of instructors on track (in the -1 cars) to keep a general eye out on things. We DO talk to the group leaders if we see shenanigans out on track, trust me! Since the -2 cars are operating under the exact same passing rules as the -1 cars, I see no reason that the two groups can't be combined safely. Part of the "education" that you get in the -1/-2 group is to learn about traffic management, and how to keep your head up out of the car and on a swivel... Last event in the MW region, we had THIRTY-SEVEN cars in the TT group on a 1.7 mile track. If we had all come up the ladder without mastering traffic management, that would have been near disastrous.

 

Also, if you take your argument that the -2 drivers are faster than the -1 drivers to the limit, then really we should have FOUR run groups, splitting the -1 and -2 groups into high-horsepower and low-horsepower sessions. That way you're not infringing on the "track rights" of the Miata crowd with those silly Corvettes, M3s, Vipers and Mustangs... That would be a scheduling nightmare, and start cutting into the overall time available for the race groups and TT group, but not that much more than having separate -1/-2 groups.

 

As an instructor, I support having the -1 and -2 groups running together, as long as the car counts are kept to reasonable levels. I would not be happy seeing as many -1/-2 cars in a session as we had TT cars, but honestly, the speed jump from -1 to -2 just isn't dramatic enough to warrant separate run groups.

 

I agrre with Dave. I instructed at the Putnam event and ran in TT. I can understand -2 students getting frustrated with slower traffic but as I tell my students when they approach a slower car, stay close and when you exit a corner to a passing zone get in the mirror on the passing side. This usually will get you a point by. And as Dave pointed out you want the HPDE students to learn traffic management.

 

I came up through all of the HPDE groups and yes I ran into trains but I learned traffic management and AWARENESS! The awareness of your situation on track at any given point can not be stressed enough as you get to the higher levels.

 

Dave - glad you got the wheel stud fixed!

[sscguy]

For you Midwest guys:

 

1. Do you have HPDE3? What are the passing rules if so.

2. Why are you working on "traffic management" in a group with ultra-controlled passing rules, where not everyone is up to par as far as awareness and talent goes? At least based on what I'm used to in HPDE3, it seems like DE3 would be a better place to practice passing given that everyone has the basic skillset down. Especially without instruction, how exactly are the DE2 students supposed to learn about traffic when they're (generally, from what I've seen) just being held up most of the time?

3. Isn't DE3 when the students are "cut loose?" DE2 to me was always a couple steps up from DE1, where you start to focus on increasing speed and perfecting on-track behavior. The skills, awareness, and focus aren't quite there yet though, so an instructor remains in the car. DE1 is like an introduction to tracking, focusing on track etiquette, protocol, and "getting your feet wet".

 

Maybe these regions are just very different from my experiences, but I at least understand the logic of my region.

[soundguydave]

Mitch: Thanks! It was a big relief finally being able to thread on that fifth lugnut...

 

sscguy: We absolutely do have HPDE-3 in our region! The passing rules for -3 are fluid, however, essentially starting with passing on the straights only, then relaxing to anywhere but braking to apex as the day/weekend progresses. In -3 they also regularly run exercises, like running the left side of the track only (practicing offline driving), or setting up passing exercises with the following rule: no passing anywhere EXCEPT braking to apex. Your description of your HPDE-2 group sounds a lot like our take on -1 students who have been cleared to "solo," without an instructor, but also without a sign-off to HPDE-2. Some of the prime requirements for HPDE-2, since there are no instructors in the car, is complete situational awareness, at least reasonable comfort in the track environment, AND the ability to develop your own line. I have had HPDE-1 students that demonstrate all of the above, and are safe, aware drivers, EXCEPT that in my judgement (based on their experience) they would not be comfortable developing a line on their own at a new track. For those students, we can allow them to solo (at their option, not enforced!) on a session by session basis.

 

In short:

 

HPDE-1: Track neophytes; drivers that will benefit from instruction concerning their line, car control, techniques, and/or could use assistance with situational awareness. Strict passing zones (selected long straights only), point-by mandatory, that do not vary over the course of the day or weekend.

 

HPDE-2: Students that have mastered the basics, and require more pure track time to let their skills develop, in preparation for moving up the ladder. The same passing zones and rules apply as to HPDE-1 students. Eventually, the lightbulb "clicks on," and the student will ask for a check-off ride to HPDE-3.

 

HPDE-3: This is the meat-and-potatoes group. It's expected that complete situational awareness is present, traffic management is automatic, and that the basic car control skills have been mastered. The passing zones are more liberal, and may open up though the course of the day or weekend. Point-by is still mandatory. Exercises (offline, side-by-side laps, practice starts) and classroom discussion of racecraft is very common. Speeds here are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the HPDE-1/2 group. There are still trains, but the trains are moving a lot faster, and dissipate a lot more quickly.

 

HPDE-4: Open passing rules apply. In our region, we have VERY few HPDE-4 drivers, since most of the -3 drivers looking to make the jump are doing so to "punch their ticket" for either comp school or to go to Time Trials. We run HPDE-3 and HPDE-4 together, and it actually works! The -4 drivers have the number "4" in the back window, and must respect the -3 rules unless passing another -4 car... It really is kind of the honor system about who passed whom, where, when, and with or without a point-by, but the group seems to be pretty well self-policed. The fact that the group leaders are SERIOUS about driver development, particularly the mental aspects, helps!

 

I wouldn't expect an HPDE-2 student to be working on anything but mastering the basic skills (braking, heel/toe, steering, throttle-steer, etc.), gaining valuable seat time, and working on situational awareness, all under the very safe umbrella of -1/-2 passing rules. Once they hit HPDE-3, they'll be on track with the -4 cars as well, and they'll need to have all of those skills mastered, before starting to work on trail-braking, offline driving and passing, etc. One of the main reasons, in my opinion, that this system works is due to the HPDE-1 level classroom and on-track instruction. We instructors have been given a mandate: do NOT advance a student unless they're ready, in all aspects, for the following group. Recently, we started a new procedure, where if we give a student a pass on a check-ride to the next group, we then have to ride with that student for their first outing in the new group. It really sucks telling a student that they just busted their check-ride, but if you turn it into a learning experience for them, explaining in detail not why they failed, but what they can do to improve, I've rarely had any sort of sour-grapes reaction. To give you an idea of what we expect, I was giving a check-ride to an HPDE-4 driver that wanted to go run with TT, and asked him to drive the left side of the track, at speed, for a full lap, while he was in the middle of a difficult right-hand corner. Not only did he execute flawlessly, but gave point-bys while offline in mid-corner, and left enough room that the point-by was accepted by the passing car with absolutely no drama. The skills that allowed that instant to occur were forged in HPDE-1, where traffic management and situational awareness are drilled into the drivers' heads along with car-control skills and track etiquette.

 

Traffic management is more than just giving a point-by or receiving one. It's learning that you HAVE to lift if you give a point-by to make the pass happen safely. You also HAVE to give a point-by in a timely manner, not as you're approaching the braking zone. It's also learning that you HAVE to anticipate a point-by if you want the pass to happen in a timely manner. If you anticipate the point, you can always back off and drop back in line if you don't get it. If you wait until you have it, though, by the time you react to it, pull offline, and hammer the gas, A) you may be the only car that can make the pass, even if there's a train behind the first car, and B) you may not be able to make the pass if it's a fairly short passing zone. Because we start teaching those concepts right up front, our trains tend to dissipate fairly quickly. If we have a student that just isn't aware, and isn't giving the point-by when appropriate, we'll pull them into the hot pits to chat, very politely, about it.

[Lucid Moments]

Not quote the way NASA defines the groups Dave.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/

 

Group One (HPDE-1)

 

This is where you begin. This is one on one guidance from experienced racers, as you learn to control your car and yourself. Your mentor will provide you with guidance as you learn to drive at the limit. You will address how to approach a turn, the fast way around it, what gear should you be in, how to brake, and how to exit. The session generally includes a lead-follow session. Passing is very limited in the Group 1 Sessions.

Group Two (HPDE-2)

 

Your instructor has determined you can drive on your own and with less supervision. You apply what you learned in the Group 1 sessions to get more practice. Group 2 is often mixed with Group 1 and is for those drivers that want some more Group 1 seat-time, but do not need an instructor.

Group Three (HPDE-3)

 

You have progressed to the world of high performance driving. The passing rules in group 3 are not as strict. You must learn to share the track at high speeds with others.

Group Four (HPDE-4)

 

Congratulations! You have made it, no passing restriction except those of good judgment and rules of the road etiquette. You and your peers are now experiencing the joys of doing it right in a relatively safe and controlled environment! You can now enjoy high performance driving at its finest. Those that wish to can petition to apply for a competition license.

[soundguydave]

Not quote the way NASA defines the groups Dave.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/

 

Group One (HPDE-1)

 

This is where you begin. This is one on one guidance from experienced racers, as you learn to control your car and yourself. Your mentor will provide you with guidance as you learn to drive at the limit. You will address how to approach a turn, the fast way around it, what gear should you be in, how to brake, and how to exit. The session generally includes a lead-follow session. Passing is very limited in the Group 1 Sessions.

Group Two (HPDE-2)

 

Your instructor has determined you can drive on your own and with less supervision. You apply what you learned in the Group 1 sessions to get more practice. Group 2 is often mixed with Group 1 and is for those drivers that want some more Group 1 seat-time, but do not need an instructor.

Group Three (HPDE-3)

 

You have progressed to the world of high performance driving. The passing rules in group 3 are not as strict. You must learn to share the track at high speeds with others.

Group Four (HPDE-4)

 

Congratulations! You have made it, no passing restriction except those of good judgment and rules of the road etiquette. You and your peers are now experiencing the joys of doing it right in a relatively safe and controlled environment! You can now enjoy high performance driving at its finest. Those that wish to can petition to apply for a competition license.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but where does my description differ, except in terms of detail?

[cmchopeful]

For you Midwest guys:

 

1. Do you have HPDE3? What are the passing rules if so.

2. Why are you working on "traffic management" in a group with ultra-controlled passing rules, where not everyone is up to par as far as awareness and talent goes? At least based on what I'm used to in HPDE3, it seems like DE3 would be a better place to practice passing given that everyone has the basic skillset down. Especially without instruction, how exactly are the DE2 students supposed to learn about traffic when they're (generally, from what I've seen) just being held up most of the time?

3. Isn't DE3 when the students are "cut loose?" DE2 to me was always a couple steps up from DE1, where you start to focus on increasing speed and perfecting on-track behavior. The skills, awareness, and focus aren't quite there yet though, so an instructor remains in the car. DE1 is like an introduction to tracking, focusing on track etiquette, protocol, and "getting your feet wet".

 

Maybe these regions are just very different from my experiences, but I at least understand the logic of my region.

 

Part of de-1 is teaching the student to be aware of everything going on around them and learning the basic skills to drive the track. We have a great new tool we are using with our de-1 students we will take them out first thing in the morning to show them the track at a slow speed. I use this time to point out all of the corner workers, explaining to them that being aware of what it happening at that flag station will save your bacon. I also show them basic techniques to establishing your brake zones, a basic line, etc.

 

During our sessions I'll ask the student after we pass a flag station to tell me what color shirt or what color the car was at that stattion we just passed. I'm also checking the mirrors and watching the student is also. I may have to remind them.

 

Awareness is also about asking the student "What's the car telling you".

 

Developing this skill early and maintaining it up through the ranks is vital. I'll give you an example. At Putnam I was in the braking zone for turn one and there is a little hill before the brake zone. I saw the green vette coming and thought he'll catch me just about apex. He did catch me a little earlier then I anticipated (he was scary quick) Had I not checked again before turn in it could have been close as it was I saw he was going inside and I stayed out and we went through turn one side by side.

 

When a student moves to de-2 and no instructor is in the car they had better be able to know when a flag is out.

 

IMHO I'd rather be on the track with an aware driver than a fast driver.

[anymanusa]

that was painful to watch.

 

I actually had a similar experience with Chin at Barber... I actually have 6-7 laps of me following behind some girl in a red Lotus from a few years back. Not only did it ruin the whole session, but I can't even go back and look at the tapes and learn anything about my driving. All I see is a pony tailed girl not giving a point by. VERY frustrating.

[dbright007]

Have to agree with Lucid Moments... Combined DE1/2 = bad.

[Bruce L.]

I agree with this rationale for mixed group 1/2 on track - it works fine in the Rocky Mountain region and I often go out in that run group as well to be a role model. We don't have 70 cars on track at once though ...

bruce

NASA Rocky Mountain Group 4 Leader

 

 

There is some excuse for the drivers. They are new, or they are newish and frustrated. Whatever. There is NO excuse for the instructors that are in the car. If their driver didn't have it together enough to follow their instructions to point people by then they should make the driver pit. If the instructor didn't have it together enough to tell the driver to point by then they shouldn't be instructing.

 

In general, I agree.

 

That being said though I point the biggest finger at NASA. HPDE 1 & 2 groups running together is a BAD IDEA. You can talk all you want to about learning experiences, but being stuck in traffic like that stinks. And putting the two groups together like that IS going to cause traffic problems. They tried it in the Southeast region for a while, and if they had kept to it, and I had still been in DE1 or DE2 then I would have quit coming. Which would be a shame because I have made a lot of friends down here with the NASA-SE group.

 

This, though, I have to disagree with. The entire reason for existence of the HPDE-2 group is to provide a "safe" place to work on mastering the skills the driver has accumulated in HPDE-1 with an instructor in the car. At some point, the HPDE-1 driver needs to be pitched out of the nest, and sent out on their own to practice what they've been taught, and one of the safety valves is the fact that there are a bunch of instructors on track (in the -1 cars) to keep a general eye out on things. We DO talk to the group leaders if we see shenanigans out on track, trust me! Since the -2 cars are operating under the exact same passing rules as the -1 cars, I see no reason that the two groups can't be combined safely. Part of the "education" that you get in the -1/-2 group is to learn about traffic management, and how to keep your head up out of the car and on a swivel... Last event in the MW region, we had THIRTY-SEVEN cars in the TT group on a 1.7 mile track. If we had all come up the ladder without mastering traffic management, that would have been near disastrous.

 

Also, if you take your argument that the -2 drivers are faster than the -1 drivers to the limit, then really we should have FOUR run groups, splitting the -1 and -2 groups into high-horsepower and low-horsepower sessions. That way you're not infringing on the "track rights" of the Miata crowd with those silly Corvettes, M3s, Vipers and Mustangs... That would be a scheduling nightmare, and start cutting into the overall time available for the race groups and TT group, but not that much more than having separate -1/-2 groups.

 

As an instructor, I support having the -1 and -2 groups running together, as long as the car counts are kept to reasonable levels. I would not be happy seeing as many -1/-2 cars in a session as we had TT cars, but honestly, the speed jump from -1 to -2 just isn't dramatic enough to warrant separate run groups.

[sscguy]

For soundguydave and cmchopeful:

Why are HPDE2 students let free without an instructor? Seems like a great way for a noob driver to 1.) develop bad habits without correction, and 2.) get into a nasty situation as their speed increases, but without the supervision to recognize imminent disaster or correct the situation before it gets out of hand. "Mastering the basics" and being "very good with situational awareness" hardly make for someone who can develop the skills they need with no outside help, IMO. I look for the same thing in my HPDE1 students, but do so with the knowledge that it is only Step 1 in the process, and guidance is needed beyond that. How many events are these DE1 students driving in before moving onto DE2?

 

Again, I'm coming from a completely different regimen, but have sampled the combined 1/2 group.

[soundguydave]

Well, by definition, an HPDE-2 student is one that the instructor judges no longer needs somebody in the right seat, and has progressed to the point of being aware of their mistakes, and can self-correct. By the time a student makes it to HPDE-2 (which can range from a weekend if your last name is Andretti or Unser to several weekends if you're not in a hurry to cut the umbilical), they have to have demonstrated that they understand how to drive the line (to the point of being able to develop their own at a new track), know proper braking, accelerating, and steering technique, are situationally aware (of flag stations, other cars, changing track conditions, changes in the vehicle dynamics from heat/fuel consumption, etc.), but most importantly, can properly diagnose and correct their own mistakes. Granted, everyone can profit from having an instructor/coach in the right seat, myself included, but there comes a time when it's just best to get out there and practice the skills you're working on. For the system to work, there can be no "time in grade" promotions. They need to be earned. By the time we're done with a student, and are willing to sign them off to HPDE-2, they've already had the "nasty situation," of going into a braking zone too deep because they started to carry more speed through the previous corner. They did it with an instructor on-board, who prepped them for it, then coached them through the situation, and provided the perspective to let them understand exactly what happened. The payoff for instructing is seeing the light-bulb click on in the student's head, and really starting to see them drive, possibly for the first time in their lives, and I don't want to get out of the car until I get that experience! Once the student "gets it," though, it's just about time to let them spread their wings. We've given them the skills and experience that they need to continue learning on their own.

 

Running HPDE-1 and HPDE-2 concurrently allows for several things to happen simultaneously. From a control/safety aspect, the HPDE-2 student is running around on a track that is littered with instructors, and believe me, if we see something amiss, there are things we can do about it. From a chat post-session to help tweek a line or a braking point, to pulling into the pits and having the grid marshal throw a black at a car, we still can help or rein-in an HPDE-2 driver. The biggest benefit to the HPDE-2 student, who is still on the steep slope of the learning curve, is that the environment is stable. The passing zones and rules are the same, the on-track speeds are consistent with what they've been used to, and that frees them up to concentrate on mastering the skills that they have already been taught, but need more time to work on. When a student gets to the point of refining their throttle technique after turn-in, all other things being okay, they really don't need me in the car with them. They're working on a specific skill (getting on the gas sooner and harder), and they KNOW if they screwed it up, and what to do about it.

[sscguy]

I suppose this is one of those things that we either have to agree to disagree on, or something that fits certain people better than others. I really do not like that approach, and I feel it abandons the student too early in their learning career. I've ridden with lots of intermediate students, and do not frequently see them displaying the skills you describe. That "KNOWING they screwed up" part, maybe for a big mistake, but not the case for little ones. Again, in my experience.

 

As far as I can tell, that particular system just "cuts them loose to figure things out on their own". Beyond that, i don't see much justification for not having an instructor there, and I don't see an explanation of how that is very different from HPDE3 except for passing rules from a personal driving standpoint (in either situation, they are trying out new things on their own without assistance or guidance; the passing areas and slower/faster traffic seem to be the only difference).

 

That's just my take on it though, and is a far diversion from the original topic

 

P.S. If its hard to decipher, I've had a gripe with this particular system for some time now...

[speedengineer]

As a Midwest/Great Lakes HPDE driver, I figured I would comment.

 

Personally, I didn't really mind have groups 1 and 2 together. Sure, sometimes there are trains and that is frustrating, but they were never as bad as those in the video in this thread, and they usually only happened during the first half of the first day of the weekend.

 

Regarding not having instructors in group 2, that was also just fine. Trust me, there was LOTS that I was able to work on by my self. Every now and then though, I did want some instruction from a more experienced driver. No problem! There are always a few extra instructors around that are happy to ride along for a session and give some pointers.

[Bruce L.]

to add a bit of levity here ...

 

by 2020, volvo will have all the answers

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/252586/volvos_shock_safety_pledge.html?CMP=NLC-Newsletters&uid=fd081fd21e76d83a0fd2c8d258aa27dd

 

our drivers will be able to nap if a train develops!

bruce

[sscguy]

Does that article show the video of the car crashing into the back of an 18-wheeler?

[krystar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoL5NkIuIPU

 

so we all know what we're talking about

[Marcel D.]

I don't know about other regions but here in Socal point by is expected not required. That is why you have passing areas. Sometimes in 1 and 2 it gets a little crowded. Now lets face it, everybody would like to think that they are the best driver since Mario hit the tracks but the truth is different. Just because you are wearing a helmet doesn't make you any faster. I look at HPDE like a sorting table and the more you advance the faster the drivers get. Now the job of the instructors is not by any means easy. I have seen people that did not have absolutely any idea of what they were doing and they were the loudest at the downloads, pointing fingers at everybody else. They didn't last too long. So pointing fingers at NASA is just not right. If you are good you will be rewarded by advancing, if not well ...... sorry. Also the most complaints were at group 1 and 2. You are beginers, get over it.

On the other hand, I have seen guys and girls that just have it down. They don't say anything at all and the only reason they show every sesion is to improve and have fun they don't have any problem advancing to next level.

Where I'm running right now is just a bunch of really good guys and girls that really know what they are doing and I feel very comfortable with all of them to the point that I was signed to go to level 4 but I rather stay here until my licensing class.

I understand that being stuck behind a slow driver is not fun, but instead of getting frustrated about it why don't you take the chance to really practice your lines instead of going all over the track. I don't know what you were doing in there going wide on the turns. Going by the pits and not taking the chance to get out of the train, why not? .

 

I'm going to quote a really good instructor we have here. Actually all the instructor staff down here are great. I know they are doing their job and a good one at that. They have to weed out bad drivers. You are in a race track doing some serious speed, be patient

 

This happened in a download sesion and it was a big horspower guy complaining about traffic. The answer " the rental of the track is about $3500 a day and you will be the only one on it. " If you get to race groups are you going to complain about traffic slowing you down? if you are fast, request to go to the next group and you will have more track.

 

I'm sure we all have being thru traffic jams and survived. that is also part of being on the track, not just going all balls out.

Just enjoy yourself and let your driving talk for yourself.

[krystar]

yea but hpde isn't about going fast. it's about control and awareness. passing even in-zone w/o a point by is just asking for a car-car incident. the reason for requiring a pointby is so the front car driver is aware that there's going to be somebody passing him. otherwise if he's oblivious and wanders off line or doesn't allow for enough space, u have metal to metal.

[sscguy]

They have to weed out bad drivers.

 

I'm sorry, what? HPDE is for education, not "separating the men from the boys". If the noobs aren't being directed properly as to how they're supposed to act, who else is to blame if the instructors (on-track and classroom, apparently from what you're saying) are not telling them? Not many people know all this stuff from the get-go.

[kbrew8991]

yea but hpde isn't about going fast.

 

why is it held on a race track?

 

sure you're not going for every last hundreth, but, you're there to learn the skills to drive fast by actually driving faster than you can on a real road anyway...

[Marcel D.]

They have to weed out bad drivers.

 

I'm sorry, what? HPDE is for education, not "separating the men from the boys". If the noobs aren't being directed properly as to how they're supposed to act, who else is to blame if the instructors (on-track and classroom, apparently from what you're saying) are not telling them? Not many people know all this stuff from the get-go.

 

I never said separating the men from the boys, If you don't know how to drive it doesn't have absolutely anything to do with your age. I have seen 16 year old kids that would probably run circles around you. Last time I checked the cars on the track only come with one steering wheel. The one behind it is ultimately in charge of the car, not the instructor. So if your state of mind is not set correctly to drive on the track then you don't have any business on it.

 

This is not a testosterone competition to see who has more hair in his chest. Unless you shave. If you post a video and you can hear yourself screaming at the driver in front, you don't have a place in the track. I wouldn't like to be on a race with you period.

 

This is all about maturity and safety and instructors can not give it to you, I don't care how old you are. The race track is not a place to learn how to drive, it is a place to polish your skills and by meaning that you have to weed bad drivers that is what I mean, sorry but there is bad drivers and just because you pay to go in the track doesn't mean that you know how to drive in it. That is why there is 4 levels in HPDE, to sort the guys that want to go ahead with TT or race. If you just want to have fun stay in 1 or 2.

 

It is so easy to put the blame on somebody else like in school. If the kid doesn't learn is the teachers fault right? WRONG, is the kid that doesn't want to learn or can not learn. Same in the track, if the driver doesn't want to follow advise then what do you think is going to happen. When they tell you you are going to drive in a HPDE what do you think it is, High Performance Driving Event plus race track equals high speed a a lot of control and cool head. YOU ARE IN A RACE TRACK not a street in your local mall taking the kids for an ice cream.

 

If I sound a little bit frustrated is because I am. Take responsability for yourself and don't blame everybody else. There is an old chinese proberb that I just invented and it says "Since excuses were invented we don't have any more idiots." Stop using excuses.

 

All this opinions are mine and only mine. I'm very sorry if I offended anybody but this comentaries are not directed at anybody in particular just the one that is getting offended right now. Sorry for the mispelling, I was one of the kids that didn't want to learn.

[Cheap_Thrills]

I don't know about other regions but here in Socal point by is expected not required. That is why you have passing areas.

 

Really? So your saying HPDE1/2 is basically HPDE4 when in passing zones then? I'd be very hesitant to go flying by an absolute noobie and assume they know I'm there. I remember my first time, I was all over the track and on sensory overload.

 

From the CCR...

6.3 Passing Rules

6. The driver attempting to make a pass is solely responsible for safe outcome of that

pass. Drivers making a pass should be certain that the driver ahead of them can

see them before attempting to pass. All drivers are reminded that this is not a

competition and risky passes are prohibited.

 

OK, so the CCR doesn't say mandatory point by in HPDE1/2. But, if your not given a point by, how can you be certain the driver ahead can see you? So the passing car is therefore making a risky pass, which is a rule violation. And if there's contact, guess who's to blame?

 

25.4.1 Passing General

The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the

overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed

and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors

or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or

penalized.

 

So, if your not watching mirrors, ignoring Blue/Yellow passing flag you should be black flagged to allow the other traffic to safely continue without having to make risky passes.

[Marcel D.]

I don't know about other regions but here in Socal point by is expected not required. That is why you have passing areas.

 

Really? So your saying HPDE1/2 is basically HPDE4 when in passing zones then? I'd be very hesitant to go flying by an absolute noobie and assume they know I'm there. I remember my first time, I was all over the track and on sensory overload.

 

From the CCR...

6.3 Passing Rules

6. The driver attempting to make a pass is solely responsible for safe outcome of that

pass. Drivers making a pass should be certain that the driver ahead of them can

see them before attempting to pass. All drivers are reminded that this is not a

competition and risky passes are prohibited.

 

OK, so the CCR doesn't say mandatory point by in HPDE1/2. But, if your not given a point by, how can you be certain the driver ahead can see you? So the passing car is therefore making a risky pass, which is a rule violation. And if there's contact, guess who's to blame?

 

25.4.1 Passing General

The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the

overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed

and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors

or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or

penalized.

 

So, if your not watching mirrors, ignoring Blue/Yellow passing flag you should be black flagged to allow the other traffic to safely continue without having to make risky passes.

 

 

I'm not here to tell anybody how to drive or to teach you how to read, I don't claim to be a great driver, I have so much to learn that I can probably fill a hard drive with it. but if after 20 minutes of driving behind a car you still don't think that driver hasn't see you well he's blind or you don't know what he heck is going on. Thanks for posting the passing rules. I think you just put out your own fire. By the way and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

At the begining when the car was coming out of pits, you could have pass that car because he is still in pit out on the right of the track and I'm sure they told you guys at the drivers meeting that when you go out on the track you have to stay on the right because you have fast cars coming on the track. That is not considered a pass because the car is not on the racing surface. At least that is what I think. Next time you post a HERO video make sure that you don't yell at the driver infront of you because everybody just heard it.

 

And what about all those cars that passed, nobody blocked them . He wasn't blocking and you didn't pass. What do you want me to tell you. Live and learn and stop complaining.

[Marcel D.]

WOW! Just watched the whole video. There really isn't much I can add other than the whole run group should have been parked for the next session and the HPDE Director should be fired for not policing that mess.

 

Really?, how old are u? and you have a racing team? woau.

[soundguydave]

WOW! Just watched the whole video. There really isn't much I can add other than the whole run group should have been parked for the next session and the HPDE Director should be fired for not policing that mess.

 

Really?, how old are u? and you have a racing team? woau.

 

Marcel, before you start with this kind of deal, you may want to think a bit. The age comment seems rather pot/kettle to me given many of the comments that you have made in this thread... I'll lay dollars to donuts that Mark (UBR) is older than you, has more track time than you by a factor of ten, and HAS A COMP LICENSE and you most likely don't.

 

That said, our job, as instructors, is NOT to "weed out the bad drivers," in any way, shape, or form. Our job is to take those "bad drivers" and turn them into good drivers. On occasion (frequently, actually) a raw newbie driver is in such a sensory-overload condition, that you need to focus on one thing, one single fundamental skill or concept, before you EVER start worrying about bringing them up to any sort of pace. Do we, as instructors, keep an eye on traffic, and attempt to help manage it? Oh, absolutely, yes, we do. Does it always work? No, it doesn't. Either the guy with the Z06 just doesn't understand why he needs to lift to let the Miata by, or the guy in the Miata is still mentally recovering from the last corner, and can't get it together quickly enough to throw a point-by out before he hits the braking zone for the next corner... I've seen them both, I've instructed with both, and eventually, given enough time, both kinds of students can be brought around. THAT IS THE GOAL. In the case of the "rattled driver," who is generally freaked out to begin with, having you come flying past when he may NOT have seen you will not help his self-confidence one whit, and may even make him drive even more slowly...

 

HPDE-1/2 is all about learning and following the rules, and I'm not just talking about the CCR stuff, either. It's on-track etiquette as well. If you blithely ignore the rules in 1/2, when you get to 3, 4 or TT, and continue to ignore the rules, somebody is going to get hurt. Period. HPDE-1/2 is about learning the fundamentals correctly, and polishing them to the point where you are able to advance to a faster group, and run with them safely. The largest part of safety is judgement, and ignoring the passing rules is a HUGE lapse in judgement. That, right there, would be more than enough to bust a -3 check-ride, no matter how fast or technically proficient you are. You're not able to "play nice" with your classmates, so you need to stay in 1/2 until you can...