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Any of you guys run no front sway bar?


ct9ars

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I'm not in HC yet, but working my way through HPDE.

 

I drive a DC2, K20-R swap with KW suspension, stock front bar, ASR 24mm rear bar, 2200lbs empty weight.

 

Looking at some of the pics from the last event, about 1/2 of my inside front tire was being lifted off the ground during cornering. That tire also wore more than the outside tire (PBIR has much more right handers than left) and it felt like some push coming out of corners, and I could tell that it was hurting my exit speed based on how some cars would pull away from me after a turn.

 

I disconnected the bar for an autocross event, also changing my coilover settings accordingly as a test. I did finish a lot better than usual, but wondering if any of you guys run or have tried the setup at the road course?

 

I appreciate any input, I don't have the funds to attend many track days so I don't want to go through with the removal if it's going to make for a miserable weekend.

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The answer to the question of how much anti-roll you need on any one axle relies on many factors. Your cg height, spring rates, static and dynamic camber, even tire compound, are going to change what optimum anti-roll value you need.

 

You are looking for a change because you feel that the inside front tire is being lifted off the ground, thereby reducing your front traction and causing your push. It would only make sense then that removing your sway bar would allow more load on that tire and cure your problem. This is a plausible situation, but probably not one you are encountering with the stock bar. I'd like to see the picture, but it is kind of hard to have "half" a tire on the ground. It is either making a contact patch, or it is not. Probably what the picture indicates is that your inside tire is extremely negatively cambered, which will actually INCREASE when you take off the sway. A picture is not a good way to determine the cornering force a tire is producing.

 

If you take off your front sway, you are probably going to notice an immediate improvement is how well the car applies power. This is going to really help your low speed cornering, accelaration, and drivability(and your AutoX). It is likely the rest of your turns(mid and high speed) will suffer, and I will tell you why.

 

As your car corners, load begins to transfer laterally to the outside wheels. As the vehicle leans, the sway bars act to increase the total load transfered. Usually, this is a negative, since tires being what they are, produce more grip when the load is spread more evenly. But especially in sedan with a high CG, the bar is acting to preserve negative camber in the laden wheels. This turns out to be far more important that even loading in terms of overall grip potential of the chassis.

 

By creating a bias between load transfer front and rear, we can effect the balance of the car. On the drive axle, we can also effect the forward bite.

 

BUT, and it's a big but, you can't simply keep adding a bigger rear bar, or a smaller front, and continue to have the same load transfer characteristic(oversteer). There is a tipping point where the car will start to move back toward understeer. That point is the point in which the inside rear comes off the ground. From this point on, all load transfer comes from the inside front, the very wheel we were attempt to keep grounded. As we continue to increase lateral G, and the car keeps rolling, we are not only unloading that inside front, but also, decambering the outside front, the only wheel that is turning us right now. The outside rear load remains static, and even experiences less dynamic camber change then the front. The result is that our balance starts going back to push. What you get is a car that turns in well, but will tend to wash out once it takes a set, and ultimately not creating all the lateral grip it can.

 

The moral of the story is that a honda is a high cg, low roll center car, like any sedan, and it needs a certain amount of anti roll to function properly. At your power levels, power application is still secondary to lateral grip on a road course.

 

In application, have someone look at your rear wheel in corners. It is ok to see it lifting in a 2nd gear hairpin, where power application trumps grip. But if you are seeing tons of daylight under that rear tire in 3rd and 4th gear corners, you need to rethink your anti-sway bias.

 

If you still feel you are pushing and having problems on corner exit, try these items instead of removing the bar:

-increase front static camber(increase the threshold in which you wash out)

-get a good LSD(limit inside wheel spin)

-examine your throttle application and steered angle on exit. Point and shoot driving will induce understeer.

-depending on your car and setup, INCREASING your front roll resistance maybe actually help(as was the case recently with one of the norcal racer's prelude)

 

In the end, everything is a trade off. But it is better to optimize for medium speed turns than for hairpins.

 

(in fairness, people do run successfully without a front bar. But the fast cars I know that get away with it do so because they run fairly soft setups to begin with, which means their actual anti-sway bias is small.)

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Unfortunately i only bought a couple of pictures from that weekend, but here's one.

 

The car has an LSD (OEM Honda Type-R).

 

I am running -3 deg camber F with zero toe, -2 deg camber R with 1/8 toe out. While at full stiff rear full soft front. Now i am running 2/3 front 1/2 rear.

 

tegroll.jpg

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It's hard to tell from the pic, because there is no horizon line, but your outside tire seems to have gone positive camber. It's anecdotal of course, but once you are on the HC spec tire, you will probably run more camber. If you remove the sway, body roll will only increase from this pic.

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you make a good point there, this was my first event on race rubber. Nitto NT-01s.

 

Before I was using Kumho Ecsta XS street tires.

 

You run more than -3 up front? What you say does make sense, because the inside tire wore evenly, while the outside tire still had more tread on the outer section.

 

also spring rates are 550/350. the shocks were at full soft in the front in that pic. without the bar i have it set at 12 clicks front and it feels pretty close to full soft with the bar. but street driving is not the same as being on a road course.

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On my DA I run 3.8-4.0. This weekend I plan to experiment with 4.5. Toyo(hc spec tire) claims it can run as high as 5. My experience is that the toyo is very camber INsensitive, so I wouldn't worry to much about negative effects. Your car is bound to be different. Experiment. And if you really want to go HC, get on the toyo as soon as possible.

 

But with a car that rolls like yours, 3 sounds and looks like too little.

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most of us running race rubber also run more spring than that, fyi.

 

Also, don't focus so much on your shock settings right now. Get the springs and bar rates worked out before you start turning those knobs. Set them somewhere where they feel like they are properly damping the bumps and ignore them for now.

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I tried backing down camber based on tire wear, that was stupid, because then i took temps and i need a lot more camber. So "tire wear" doesn't mean much, its all about temps.

 

Ill be going back to getting as much as i can, which is hopefully around -4

 

 

You run really soft rates for that car, understandable because its still street driven (pretty sure).

 

 

700 is what most would consider a minimum rate up front.

 

I run a EG with a k20a3, 2330lbs and i run 800lbs front springs. And will be messing with the small civic front bar.

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To answer your original question, I run no front bar and love it! the car is a lot harder to drive through transitions but corner exit is killer!

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ill be upgrading the springs soon. the roll is a little exaggerated in that pic. the bumper was held on by zip tie on the passenger side, and kept getting pushed up. i never got to those speeds before (140+), i did not hold. i fixed it for real now

 

its still "sorta" streetable, but it's becoming less and less fun to do so since the area is packed with traffic. and i have no a/c, p/s, radio etc.

 

now that i bought a cheap tow vehicle, i can take it off the road.

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When I got my car down to race weight, I took the front sway bar off. It was right before we did an HPDE at Monticello, NY. I loved it. It took a little getting used to but I also found that I could turn in and exit corners faster. Small side effect is high speed straights are a little wobbly. Not a problem, just not as smooth at higher speeds then with the bar on.

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I really like the no front bar setup. No problem for me at charlotte motor speedway going into t3 at 140+.

 

It may be the longer wheelbase cars that benefit most from this. They need more help turning.

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I also run without a front bar, and a big ars rear bar. It works good for me on my honda prelude.

 

spring rates are 550/350

 

that's way to soft in the rear. for a streat / track car I would do something like 550 front, 650 rear, with OEM front sway bar and a big rear sway bar. For a race car I would start with something like 800 front, 1000 rear. big rear sway bar and a little or no front sway bar. You also need to make sure your shocks can handle the springs.

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I don't really have much too add to the discussion. However, I'd like to share my setup and picture.

 

Car: MK3 Golf NASA GTS-2

 

- No FSB

- 28mm RSB

- Springs: 500# front, 600# rear

- -2.5° front camber, -1.5° rear camber

- Tires: Toyo RA-1 205/50R15 (moving to 225/45R15)

 

20434_1320387483687_1050791903_973676_4111635_n.jpg

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I ran my H1 Integra with 930ft/1200+ rear with a huge rear bar (w/ splitter and wing). Most of your problems are the wrong spring rates. The FWD Hondas cars need a higher % of spring in the rear to make the car work. Since you already have the 550's put those in front and place 800lbs in the rear with no other changes. Try to do only one change at a time. Please report back and let us know how it goes.

 

PS- Just set your shocks right in the middle and leave alone until you find the right balance with springs. WE have seen shock dyno charts that indicate a shock may have very little or no change without extreme movement of the adjuster. Unless you have a dyno chart to understand how your shock reacts set in the middle and go from one extreme full soft or full hard when tuning to really determine which direction is working better for you. Once you are in the zone, you can start doing more fine tuning to see if it helps or hurts.

 

Good luck.

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I run no front bar and my front spring rate is 1200lbs and rear is 1600lbs.This is a 1993 prelude and i run a speedway rear sway bar and were getting 850lbs per inch of roll with the rear bar.Remember if you go up in spring you need a really good shock.Most of the guys on the west coast run 2812 koni or jrz.Put it this way if you pay 4 to 6k in shocks you have a good shock.There not cheap.My car also is 2430lbs comming off the track.Good luck.

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