ST3 how is it progressing?

[boomn29]

^^ There's no PTx anything in my region save for maybe 3 cars all in different classes. As someone looking to go w2w (form TT) in the near future, I'm sure as heck not planning on going anywhere near PTx.

 

So my options are build up for ST2 which is super expensive or sell the car and head somewhere else like a spec class or GTS.

 

Just my .02

[kbrew8991]

I tend to agree on needing less classes - but greatly disagree on what they should look like. ST is just not something that interests me. I'd rather play golf than build some highly modified hand grenade frankencar that needs constant trackside tinkering, setup, etc, etc. ST doesn't provide a place for more simple cars to be run alongside more complex cars and have them both be competitive if driven well.

[drivinhardz06]

ST is just not something that interests me.

 

It's interesting (if you have the wallet, which I don't), but yeah, the there is appeal in the more simple classes. ST is a spending contest IMHO with the open rules set.

 

IMHO the "pick your points" of PT/TT is pretty cool.

[Vettedoctor]

ST is just not something that interests me.

 

It's interesting (if you have the wallet, which I don't), but yeah, the there is appeal in the more simple classes. ST is a spending contest IMHO with the open rules set.

 

IMHO the "pick your points" of PT/TT is pretty cool.

 

I agree the pick your points is better than a ST3 class that would steal cars from other classes.

BTW Mark how many PTA cars do you think the SE will field next year? Will you guys be traveling to any of the Mid-Ohio regional races? It could make PTA a real interesting class next year.

[Rob Lay]

I'd rather play golf than build some highly modified hand grenade frankencar that needs constant trackside tinkering, setup, etc, etc. ST doesn't provide a place for more simple cars to be run alongside more complex cars and have them both be competitive if driven well.

 

Ken, as we talked about Sunday I disagree with this. Most of the ST field isn't driving hand grenades that have expensive fully adjustable suspensions and aero.

 

My car for example is ST3, but I would have placed 2nd behind Ron at Eagles Canyon with a stock engine, non-adjustable suspension, and no aero (stock challenge wing is set at 0 degrees).

 

Higher horsepower cars that go in ST1 and ST2 are less reliable, but that decreases as the power goes down to theoretical ST3-5 classes.

 

The question is what's worse? A PT class with few competitors and a long points rule set that can change or higher participation numbers and freedom to do mostly what you want with car.

 

I did Spec RX7 for 5+ years and then SCCA Touring 3, so I fully understand the positives and negatives of such rule sets. After focusing on ST the last 3 years I can say it’s the superior formula many times over. The more the rules, the more there is to cheat. The only thing in ST they need to figure out is how to GPS/Accelerometer power test cars with complete accuracy. Can't cheat the scales, but you can cheat the dyno, even a dyno in tech if your cars ECU only turns on the power at a certain temp or running configuration (switch).

 

ST gives competitors a car they want to run, not what a rule book wants them to run. Everyone also know how expensive it is to build a race car from scratch, no matter what class. The best racing deals are used cars and you can make a used race car from almost any organization and class fit into ST and be competitive! NASA PT and most SCCA classes the race cars are pigeon held. No where else to go, no freedom. Come on, this is America!

[kbrew8991]

I tried to make this point but there were so many others talking plus you were so busy making your above point you weren't really listening anyway

 

Sure, I could probably do ok locally in ST6 or whatever the hell. I'm not interested in locally that much - its a good training ground to get better at racecraft, driving, etc, but its not my focus. I've been to Nationals in 2006, 2007, and 2009. 2008 I was unemployed and 2010 entries for my class were low until the last minute and I couldn't quite scramble to make it. We'll see about 2011 and foward.

 

While we're here I bet a stock Ferrari 355 Challenge car suspension is just a wee bit superior to a stock 1994 Toyota MR2 suspension.... jus sayin. Its easier for you to say "oh, you don't need to modify your car that much to be competitive in a wide open ST type ruleset" when you start with such a well engineered car to begin with. The gains are much more minimal so you start off out of the box pretty close to where you'd end up with a fully prepared car. What do you think you'd need to do to catch Mr National Champ on a regular basis? Myself and for my class its add the couple extra whp I'm allowed, bring a second set of sticker tires next time or save them for the champ race, drive a little better, and learn to race better.

 

There is still plenty of freedom to pick and choose what you want to do in PT - and as it gets shifted more towards hp/weight reclasses / new base classes for all the "opportunities to cheat" become things that are miles easier to check - ie suspension, tires, aero, weight, and dyno. Much like ST, but not quite - you just have to pick one or two of those items to maximize or maybe pick a few more but you can't go as crazy with each of them.

 

My "this is too modified limit" is about where IT_ is. If there isn't a place for people like me with NASA then I guess I know what I need to do. SS_, T_, or IT_ seem to do ok. PT_ could catch on and pass them easily with some class simplification in NASA to boost the fields. ST_ will explode too with the same class simplification within NASA, but its just not my thing. I don't think I'm alone in saying I'd prefer the PT_ route, esp with how it ties in well to TT_ classing, but mayne I am.

 

We're thinking down the same path - class simplification - but disagreeing with the methodology to get there. We both seem pretty convinced we're right so I guess the best thing to do is agree to disagree. It's another advantage of America

Edited October 5, 2010 by Guest

[drivinhardz06]

BTW Mark how many PTA cars do you think the SE will field next year? Will you guys be traveling to any of the Mid-Ohio regional races? It could make PTA a real interesting class next year.

 

sent you an email offline, but 2 are built, 2 are being built, 1 is iffy

 

I think jason is planning on living at MO next year. I may move in with him after my wife kicks me out

[Bueller]

In 2007 i started off in TTA with my Evo. In the meantime i casually followed some of the different race classes. When i decided i was ready to take that leap into racing i had narrowed it down to a few classes. In the end what interested me the most was to race my Evo. ST2 had a pretty decent field in Socal, and there was clearly enough people who wanted to race at Nationals also. So i picked ST2.

 

This issue of having a car thats not really well prepped for ST2, or ST1, or ST-whatever comes with the territory of racing. I know how thats like because im one of those people. Im racing in ST2, but is my car truly a front runner? No. But im ok with that because im having fun. Its pretty easy and inexpensive for me to reach the weight/power limit for ST2, but thats just the start. While i acquire experience, i can gradually modify my car. Thats been my plan since i started racing last year. So far ive been having a blast. On top of that the competition in Socal has grown even more. Last i recall there are about 20 or more cars in Socal that fall into ST2, thats if everyone shows up at the same time. Our max was around 15 ST2 cars at 2 or more races. As the numbers grew so did the competition. Who knows how things will be down the line, but so far ST2 in Socal has been growing with more and more competition.

[Rob Lay]

Ken, you have decent points.

 

Are you running stock shocks and springs in your MR2? I know the Spec. RX7's have aftermarket springs and shocks in PTF.

[kbrew8991]

PTG** base class for them vs PTF* base class @ 2657lbs/125whp SAE for me. 13 more mod points to spend for them and to top it off my 225 Hoosiers eat up just about everything I've got left so I really only have a few free mods plus a couple small power things left to do to get closer to the caps given above. Its just an interior and a couple small power mods removed from SS_ trim including the OEM springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. Fun fact on that car - its 3rd event in its SCCA logbook is the Runoffs at Mid-Ohio 1997, ran in SSB actually

 

Here's a shot from Nationals last year:

 

Car as originally raced starting back around 1997 and 3,000mi on the odometer (up to 15,500 now!)

[philstireservice]

Why hasn't PT caught on ? PTE, well maybe...I'm talking about a PT class with a consistent 10-15 cars in every region.

 

I don't think it's about the $$$$ look at GTS....pretty big money in GTS2 and GTS3.

[kbrew8991]

name any class that is consistently that high in every region Spec Miata is probably the closest

[philstireservice]

Mid Atlantic used to get good GTS3, now they all went to GTS2.....8-15 cars. PTE in MA is another good class.....6-10. AI gets 6-10 along with CMC about the same. GL's gets 6-10 in both GTS2 and GTS3, there ST2 get about 4-6. There AI is good for 6-10 on average.

 

Hey if PT will go to hp/wt without the 86 item check list, it would get bigger fields....

 

My main gripe is after PTA, it's a long jump to ST2. ST3 is a perfect fit right in between. I know a lot of guys who run ST2 and are under powered and don't want to or can't fit into PTA nicely. ME <------ for one.

 

 

I would love to see 15-20 cars at every event.....I think ST3 could do that.

[Vettedoctor]

If you are underpowered for ST2 you're going to be underpowered for PTA, IMO ST3 is below both of them with the higher hp/wt. Is there no way for these cars to fit into PTB?

 

Do you think all of the PTA/TTA Z06's want to run 275's? No we needed to do that to fit into the class, and it has worked out pretty well for the guys that spent time on setting the car up. Hell we de-modded a SCCA T1 Z06 and won TTA with it this year at Nationals, next year the car will be in PTA. And we'll have to go over the points and change the car to do it. The points system is the only thing keeping our costs in check, if we scrap PT and do all ST1-5 the cost of the cars will all go up.

 

Here's my example if you have a PTA/TTA Z06 you take the car lighten it up as much as possible (which costs next to nothing unless you go carbon fiber and lexan). Take advantage of the free mods which will cost you a couple of thousand $$, then pick where you want to spend your 3 points, which basically come down to brakes vs sway bars and cat delete vs intake. If you take the same car and run ST3 then you would have to spend money on a full suspension, brakes, areo, etc. I know all cars aren't at the limit like the Z06, but this is one example of how the PT points work to keep the costs in check.

 

Also if a car is underpowered for ST2 what's going to keep a ST2 car from installing a restrictor and dropping down to ST3? Plus if you're underpowered take out weight or add a little more grunt, are these cars really maxed out in both these areas?

 

I do see how the Z06 is lucky to be where it is, basically if you want to spend money on the car you have ST2 to run in and if you don't you have PTA. If you have a PTB-F car and you want to spend money on it you have to go to the next class up, which means more power instead of just maxing the car out at it's current power level. There is always dyno re-class and see where Greg puts you.

 

I really think that PTA will be a larger class next year, the guys in the SE have some (3 or 4)TT cars that are getting caged, our Z06 will be there. There are two PTA C4's that have been running ST2 at Mid-O for car count. The 2010 PTA National Champ is from GL region, that's 7 to 8 cars right there. If you can work your car in and a couple that you mention it looks like it would be a pretty good sized class (at least at the Mid-Ohio races).

[L98Terror]

I really think that PTA will be a larger class next year, the guys in the SE have some (3 or 4)TT cars that are getting caged, our Z06 will be there. There are two PTA C4's that have been running ST2 at Mid-O for car count. The 2010 PTA National Champ is from GL region, that's 7 to 8 cars right there. If you can work your car in and a couple that you mention it looks like it would be a pretty good sized class (at least at the Mid-Ohio races).

 

FYI at least one of those PTA cars is now full time ST2

[IGZOSTD]

NASA has offered us a great platform to race in with the PT class for the racer that likes the mix of brands, curb the cost, and will spend the time to do the elementry level point tables.

ST does not demand a new Vett, Porsche GT, or high dollar AI-AIX car to be competitve.The biggest problem we have in NorCal ST and SU is those that are waiting in the wings for the car counts to go up, then come and race. Those are the Biggest Losers .

Thanks to all the SU-ST and PT racers for the great racing this year.

[UKRBMW]

I've been following this thread, as it is pretty interesting.

 

I wonder about the real difference between say PTA and ST2 costs. I know Mark has a very fast car, but how much time, parts and effort go in to that? I'm guessing he's spent as much money on it as a good ST2 car (several have been recently sold for 27-32K range) that would've been competitive at the Nationals. I do think there are exceptions to that rule - Ken's car for example, but as you look at higher TT classes they all have substantial costs involved.

 

P/TTA - a well developed Z06, with several thousand of dollars of modification (in addition to free ones)

P/TTB - looks like E46 M3 with high$$$$ suspension package is the ticket - lots of speculations on a base C5, but haven't seen it yet, also S2000.

P/TTC - I'm not actually sure, but my guess would be this is where the cost finally begins to come down a bit

P/TTD - TTE is a bit cheaper, than again who knows how much time/money went in to Joe's car.

 

I guess what I'm saying is ST3 could work to simplify things and it may cost more money to build those, but over the years it certainly seems like a good prepared car with a great driver proves to be faster than excellent prepared car with a mediocre driver, and frankly those great drivers often are pretty good at setting their cars up quite well.

 

Basically, why not just run ST3 and see what kind of car counts you get, in the end how many classes do we have in NASA that get 0 participation? Quite a few I'd say and yet I haven't seen them go away.

[clubracer6]

With credible rumors that SCCA is doing some restructuring with their classes, I think it might be time to get this ST3 thing going.

 

A buddy of mine just ran in t3 at the June Sprints and has decided STU is a better class for him. Trying to talk him into doing NASA and I think ST3 would be the solution for him and other STU folks.

 

Really think NASA should give this class a try... i think the market it there.

 

Just my $.02 - I don't have a horse in this race and I have not read much of this thread - but loving ST2 and the ST system. it's not perfect, but what is outside of spec racing.

[philstireservice]

With credible rumors that SCCA is doing some restructuring with their classes, I think it might be time to get this ST3 thing going.

 

A buddy of mine just ran in t3 at the June Sprints and has decided STU is a better class for him. Trying to talk him into doing NASA and I think ST3 would be the solution for him and other STU folks.

 

Really think NASA should give this class a try... i think the market it there.

 

Just my $.02 - I don't have a horse in this race and I have not read much of this thread - but loving ST2 and the ST system. it's not perfect, but what is outside of spec racing.

 

 

Go for it.....

[boomn29]

10.25 adjusted

 

I'd be all for ST3. I could hit that ratio pretty well I think.

 

If not, I will probably try for ST2 next year. The fields have been huge in ST2 in the MW/GL this year and the Nationals entry list is crazy big.

[boomn29]

Since this thread has been silent for nearly a year, I'm guessing ST3 is a no-go?

[PushinTheLimit]

Haven't heard anything about it. I thought it would be a good catch all class. I know many won't go for this, but if I was running the show... this is what I would do.

 

Have 7-8 classes all based on weight/hp. The rules would mirror alot like the way ST is right now. There could be some more rules thrown in for the lower classes to keep costs down (ex. no aero)

SU, ST1, ST2 and ST3 run in Thunder. ST4, ST5, ST6 and ST7 run in Lightning (regionally for example)

 

It's nothing against all the other race classes, but I think it would be interested to run against all the cars in other classes that some cars can't run in. All the classes would be plentiful with entries and the winners from the classes would be competing against many more cars.

 

That will never happen but it would sure make for some interesting racing.

[Varkwso]

I am pretty sure ST3 is not dead.

[PushinTheLimit]

I am pretty sure ST3 is not dead.

 

This was before Greg brought up the whole new ST3 discussion.

[Cobra4B]

It was dead... now very much alive.