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TTD Mustang


95PGTTech

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1998 GT TTE* <226HP 3075lbs

 

I'd like some help classing and opinions on the thought.

 

Nitto NT01 +7 (245)

SFCs +4

MM RLCA

Cobra FLCA +4

swaybars +2

shocks/springs +5

 

That leaves me with 9 points if I did it right. I was thinking MM coilovers for the springs/shocks and adjustable swaybars. Would I receive additional hit for Steeda X2 balljoints in the stock Cobra front lowers? Or does anyone have a suggestion for better front LCAs? Do I suffer the +3 for heim joints on the one side of the MM LCA in addition to the +4 LCA penalty? Are rear lower control arms worth +7, or for that matter even +4?

 

I figured I'd spend the 9 points on:

 

T2R diff +3

pullies +1

exhaust +2

cats+1

 

Mustangs have 4 cats in this year stock. I only suffer +1 for removing all four of them, correct? The pullies penalty covers entire replacement dampeners (ie...March)? How about an electric water pump?

 

 

 

 

It's tempting to spend the remaining two points on a bumpsteer kit or aftermarket front calipers but I think it'd be smarter to pocket them. Any opinions on if this car could/would be competitive in D? I'd have to shed weight like a mad man to make 3075, this car would surely be underpowered. The extra 2 could always be spent on longtubes but I don't really think that's much of a gain with the other listed exhaust mods.

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I have been pretty competitive in D and C over the last 3 years, and have tried a lot of different combos. The base weights for our cars are in need of another look, since it is pretty damn near impossible to achieve WITHOUT the driver. I don't know what SFC's are, so I can't help you there. I swapped out control arms, and went back to stock, because at near stock power levels I noticed no difference in lap times. The oem diff with good discs is a good unit, at this power level it won't be hugely out performed, but expect to rebuild it each year. Any spare points are best spent on tires.

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No PI swap?

 

I don't know how you could possibly make that work in TTD.

While these 2Vs can be made torque monsters, you need a significant head/cam package which if I'm reading right is at least +6/+6 plus your other bolt ons.

 

I have been pretty competitive in D and C over the last 3 years, and have tried a lot of different combos. The base weights for our cars are in need of another look, since it is pretty damn near impossible to achieve WITHOUT the driver. I don't know what SFC's are, so I can't help you there. I swapped out control arms, and went back to stock, because at near stock power levels I noticed no difference in lap times. The oem diff with good discs is a good unit, at this power level it won't be hugely out performed, but expect to rebuild it each year. Any spare points are best spent on tires.

 

subframe conectors. I was imagining that since a v6 mustang comes with an open diff that you'd get penalized for the GT's limited slip, so why not just go T2R with the points? or do we go by most base-level model of the v8 gt? are we talking rear or front control arms that you found no difference in? if you take a stock car and do rear lowers and front lowers you only get hit +4 not +8 correct? poly bushings (free) in stock lowers?

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You are in the same base class as I am, so yes any V8 mustang is your base class. So you can use the Ford trac loc with no penalty. I have never put subframe connectors on my car, so I can't help you there. I never got to the front control arms, but you areright about only taking 4 points for front and rears. I don't know how much better the 96+ brakes are than the 95- but I could have saved myself a TON of money by upgrading to the cobra brakes right off the bat.

 

Without knowing your budget I can tell you that from a lap time stand point many of the "free" mods will be more helpful. Camber plates are a must, a good seat, with a comfortable harness, and gutting. I will be putting on some parts before the next event which is 6/13. I'll let you know my impressions. I am putting in a bumpsteer kit, new dampers, a clutch quadrant, and maybe a couple other bits if I get to it.

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Since you're starting in TTE, your base tire width is a 235 (I think), so make sure you take the extra point for the +10mm in tires for a 245.

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I run a 2004 Mustang GT in TTD, and IMO, you're not spending your points as wisely as you could. YMMV in regards to my comments below. Bear in mind that initially, my modifications were chosen around the Camaro-Mustang Challenge class rules, although making all permitted CMC upgrades could move me up as far as TTB where the combination (and driver) will not be competitive. I'm trying to make just enough changes to keep it legal in CMC and TTD (although my current brakes are not CMC-legal).

 

Rear control arms

I am still using my stock rear upper and lower control arms. I have recently installed new OEM Ford rubber bushings in the uppers and polyurethane bushings in the lowers. I'm not sure that aftermarket lower control arms are worth 4 points; you would be better off going from Nitto NT01s to Hoosier R6s for 3 points.

 

Front A-arms

I'm still all-OEM up here as well; I haven't even changed the OEM rubber bushings yet. But, all I would do is (eventually) put poly bushings in the A-arms and leave them alone. Your Cobra A-arms would be 0 points if you are already taking +4 for the rear LCAs, but again, I don't think they are worth it. IIRC, the Cobra A-arms have upgraded rubber bushings, but you can go further for "free" with poly bushings in your stock A-arms. Yes, you would be hit with points for the Steeda X2 ball joints; FWIW, I do not run these.

 

Sway bars

I still have my OEM sway bars front and rear; I'm not smart enough to be able to tune the car by changing them yet. Ignorance is bliss here.

 

Subframe connectors

I'm not sure that these are worth 4 points, either. Every Mustang magazine on the planet will have you think that your car is a wet noodle, and while it's not structurally perfect, it's no Fox body rubber band, either. Not worth the 4 points IMO. A "free" 6-point roll bar or roll cage will likely have similar results.

 

Removing your cats

If you remove just the catalytic converters, then it's 1 point; however, to do this, you would have to cut each cat out of the OEM H-pipe (exactly at its inlet and outlet) and replace each one with a piece of 2 1/4" OD pipe to match the OEM H-pipe diameter, while keeping the rest of the OEM H-pipe construction intact. If you use a typical aftermarket off-road H-pipe, which are 2 1/2" diameter pipe, then you take 1 point for removing the cats and another 2 points for modifying the exhaust system.

 

Front calipers

Holy crap, you actually prefer to keep the stock 11" garbage up there? I was more than happy to spend those 2 points on a set of 2000 Cobra R Brembo calipers, if only for reliability and consistency. Once you start putting significant amounts of heat into the stock calipers, they will "open up" and wear pads on an angle. And then, you go sailing off into the turn 8 grass at Homestead (don't ask me how I know that). If anything, get a set of 13" SN95 Cobra calipers and rotors from BuyFordRacing.com. Oh wait, I just realized that you have the 1994-1998 cast iron, single piston front calipers. Ugh.

 

Bumpsteer kit

I installed one only because it was in a big box of Steeda parts that I bought from a friend, but I have never put a bumpsteer gauge on the car. I could be wasting 2 points here, but maybe not.

 

Power modifications

Since you have a non-PI car, you might benefit a bit from the pulleys, electric water pump, etc. I have seen bone stock PI engines make 230-235 rwhp with only mufflers and a dirty paper air filter. Upgrading to PI heads and intake, and basically building a 1999-2004 GT in a 1998 shell and asking for a reclass might be a good option. Or, do what you can to your stock engine with bolt-ons to get it in the 230 rwhp range and ask for a reclass.

 

Weight

I'm not sure how you could get your minimum competition weight down to 3075 without liberal use of a sawzall. It's possible, but it will be a dedicated track car at that point.

 

To give you an idea of my combo, my 2004 Mustang GT (TTE** 3273 lbs base weight) takes points for the following:

+14 - two asterisks

+10 - Hoosier R6s

+1 - 245mm tires

+5 - weight reduction (worst case scenario)

+3 - shocks and struts

+2 - springs

+2 - bumpsteer kit

+2 - front calipers

+39 - total, move up 1 class, maxed out in TTD (with numerous no-points modifications)

 

Note that I haven't spent a ton of money on aftermarket parts, which leaves more money to buy tires, brake pads, gas, hotel rooms, etc.

 

IMO, my car seems to be fairly competitive in TTD; as usual, its biggest handicap is in the driver's seat. I haven't had a lot of equal competition here in Florida in the last couple of seasons, but I went up to Road Atlanta last summer for the first time, and finished 2nd in TTD, 0.8 off of the newly-set track record. I figure that I can't be leaving too much on the table, although there's always something there. However, the competition this year has really stepped up with a supercharged Miata joining us, and there's possibly a TTC turbocharged Miata that may detune into TTD, so I'll have my hands full starting this weekend at Homestead.

 

Mark

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Since you're starting in TTE, your base tire width is a 235 (I think), so make sure you take the extra point for the +10mm in tires for a 245.

 

Definetely. In TTD the base tire size is 245 so there is no penalty. This was a consideration both for tire width = better and there are far more readily available 17" sizes in 245mm.

 

You are in the same base class as I am, so yes any V8 mustang is your base class. So you can use the Ford trac loc with no penalty. I have never put subframe connectors on my car, so I can't help you there. I never got to the front control arms, but you areright about only taking 4 points for front and rears. I don't know how much better the 96+ brakes are than the 95- but I could have saved myself a TON of money by upgrading to the cobra brakes right off the bat.

 

Without knowing your budget I can tell you that from a lap time stand point many of the "free" mods will be more helpful. Camber plates are a must, a good seat, with a comfortable harness, and gutting. I will be putting on some parts before the next event which is 6/13. I'll let you know my impressions. I am putting in a bumpsteer kit, new dampers, a clutch quadrant, and maybe a couple other bits if I get to it.

 

For the sake of argument, it's a no budget issue. I know what it takes to build a car of this magnitude, then the fuel costs, race costs, etc. I wouldn't jump into something I didn't feel I could handle/afford. I am about two seconds away from pulling the trigger on a super clean shell/engine/trans package, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't buying the wrong car off the start. My wife would kill me if I bought a Fox, that's not an option. Realistically, I'd like to take a bone stock, caged, seat, harness, safety stuff car out with a very basic spring/shock combination on a street tire to HPDEs and start adding here and there from there. I've only done performance driving in our heavily modified 98 Cobra, so there is some stuff I am sure will be different about the car. But I would like to make sure I'm starting with the right chassis with the right idea for what class and race I want to run before I purchase.

 

I run a 2004 Mustang GT in TTD, and IMO, you're not spending your points as wisely as you could. YMMV in regards to my comments below. Bear in mind that initially, my modifications were chosen around the Camaro-Mustang Challenge class rules, although making all permitted CMC upgrades could move me up as far as TTB where the combination (and driver) will not be competitive. I'm trying to make just enough changes to keep it legal in CMC and TTD (although my current brakes are not CMC-legal).

 

Rear control arms

I am still using my stock rear upper and lower control arms. I have recently installed new OEM Ford rubber bushings in the uppers and polyurethane bushings in the lowers. I'm not sure that aftermarket lower control arms are worth 4 points; you would be better off going from Nitto NT01s to Hoosier R6s for 3 points.

 

Front A-arms

I'm still all-OEM up here as well; I haven't even changed the OEM rubber bushings yet. But, all I would do is (eventually) put poly bushings in the A-arms and leave them alone. Your Cobra A-arms would be 0 points if you are already taking +4 for the rear LCAs, but again, I don't think they are worth it. IIRC, the Cobra A-arms have upgraded rubber bushings, but you can go further for "free" with poly bushings in your stock A-arms. Yes, you would be hit with points for the Steeda X2 ball joints; FWIW, I do not run these.

 

Sway bars

I still have my OEM sway bars front and rear; I'm not smart enough to be able to tune the car by changing them yet. Ignorance is bliss here.

 

Subframe connectors

I'm not sure that these are worth 4 points, either. Every Mustang magazine on the planet will have you think that your car is a wet noodle, and while it's not structurally perfect, it's no Fox body rubber band, either. Not worth the 4 points IMO. A "free" 6-point roll bar or roll cage will likely have similar results.

 

Removing your cats

If you remove just the catalytic converters, then it's 1 point; however, to do this, you would have to cut each cat out of the OEM H-pipe (exactly at its inlet and outlet) and replace each one with a piece of 2 1/4" OD pipe to match the OEM H-pipe diameter, while keeping the rest of the OEM H-pipe construction intact. If you use a typical aftermarket off-road H-pipe, which are 2 1/2" diameter pipe, then you take 1 point for removing the cats and another 2 points for modifying the exhaust system.

 

Front calipers

Holy crap, you actually prefer to keep the stock 11" garbage up there? I was more than happy to spend those 2 points on a set of 2000 Cobra R Brembo calipers, if only for reliability and consistency. Once you start putting significant amounts of heat into the stock calipers, they will "open up" and wear pads on an angle. And then, you go sailing off into the turn 8 grass at Homestead (don't ask me how I know that). If anything, get a set of 13" SN95 Cobra calipers and rotors from BuyFordRacing.com. Oh wait, I just realized that you have the 1994-1998 cast iron, single piston front calipers. Ugh.

 

Bumpsteer kit

I installed one only because it was in a big box of Steeda parts that I bought from a friend, but I have never put a bumpsteer gauge on the car. I could be wasting 2 points here, but maybe not.

 

Power modifications

Since you have a non-PI car, you might benefit a bit from the pulleys, electric water pump, etc. I have seen bone stock PI engines make 230-235 rwhp with only mufflers and a dirty paper air filter. Upgrading to PI heads and intake, and basically building a 1999-2004 GT in a 1998 shell and asking for a reclass might be a good option. Or, do what you can to your stock engine with bolt-ons to get it in the 230 rwhp range and ask for a reclass.

 

Weight

I'm not sure how you could get your minimum competition weight down to 3075 without liberal use of a sawzall. It's possible, but it will be a dedicated track car at that point.

 

To give you an idea of my combo, my 2004 Mustang GT (TTE** 3273 lbs base weight) takes points for the following:

+14 - two asterisks

+10 - Hoosier R6s

+1 - 245mm tires

+5 - weight reduction (worst case scenario)

+3 - shocks and struts

+2 - springs

+2 - bumpsteer kit

+2 - front calipers

+39 - total, move up 1 class, maxed out in TTD (with numerous no-points modifications)

 

Note that I haven't spent a ton of money on aftermarket parts, which leaves more money to buy tires, brake pads, gas, hotel rooms, etc.

 

IMO, my car seems to be fairly competitive in TTD; as usual, its biggest handicap is in the driver's seat. I haven't had a lot of equal competition here in Florida in the last couple of seasons, but I went up to Road Atlanta last summer for the first time, and finished 2nd in TTD, 0.8 off of the newly-set track record. I figure that I can't be leaving too much on the table, although there's always something there. However, the competition this year has really stepped up with a supercharged Miata joining us, and there's possibly a TTC turbocharged Miata that may detune into TTD, so I'll have my hands full starting this weekend at Homestead.

 

Mark

 

Mark - that was a very helpful response. I'll try and address it point by point like you did.

 

If I trade out the LCA for the +3 tire, I'm left with 3 bonus points now.

 

SFC - from what experience I have with AI guys one of the chief differences I have seen between CMC rules and AI rules is the allowance of AI to tie the cage in as a not only safety device but a stiffening device - gussets to the A and B pillars, tying into SFCs, etc. Does a CMC cage really add that much rigidity to the car?

 

brakes - 2000r stuff it is then - 1 point left

 

power modifications - with only one point left, what, a cold air induction? my cobra picked up more than 20whp between the crank dampener and the electric water pump, and I'd like to think that would help cooling issues. on the exhaust, I am confused. I'm taking 1 point hit for removing the four cats and 2 points for the catback. do I also need to take two more for modified diameter x pipe? do I even need to run a catback at all?

 

assuming 15% drivetrain loss on the 225 flywheel hp rating of the car stock, that's 191ish. is this car going to make 225 with a offroad x, catback, EWP, and march dampener? I think that's pretty generous even for a mustang dyno, but I've really only tuned 93 pump, so maybe I could stretch it a bit with some better gas.

 

one thing I've seen NPIs respond to real well is cams (+6). I'd be willing to give up the cold air pipe, the catback, and the t2r diff to make that happen. the +6 also covers comp cams gears, which my cobra liked, a lot.

 

 

Thanks for everyone helping me think out loud.

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Rather than taking points for piecemeal engine/power modifications and possibly ending up overclassed, it's probably better if you install various bolt-ons (longtubes, pulleys, CAI, maybe cams, whatever) to get you into the 230 rwhp neighborhood and ask the National Director, Greg Greenbaum, for a base re-classification based on your car's weight and its rwhp. This should put you at the same starting point as a 1999-2004 GT, even if you have to use a heavier base weight (which you will probably have, anyway).

 

Mark

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Definetely. In TTD the base tire size is 245 so there is no penalty. This was a consideration both for tire width = better and there are far more readily available 17" sizes in 245mm.

 

"The following tire sizes will be used as the base tire size for each Base Class for all

vehicles regardless of their OEM tire size(s). All vehicles in a given base class may use

this tire size (or smaller) without a points assessment:"

 

So as stated before you have to take 1 point for a 245 tire because your base class is TTE not TTD.

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Definetely. In TTD the base tire size is 245 so there is no penalty. This was a consideration both for tire width = better and there are far more readily available 17" sizes in 245mm.

 

"The following tire sizes will be used as the base tire size for each Base Class for all

vehicles regardless of their OEM tire size(s). All vehicles in a given base class may use

this tire size (or smaller) without a points assessment:"

 

So as stated before you have to take 1 point for a 245 tire because your base class is TTE not TTD.

 

Yep, that's what I was trying to tell you.

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