Rules clarification: Body panel lightening

[Jeff F]

Question regarding the following rules:

 

7.4.3 Only OEM (or the equivalent replacement of same type and material) body panels may used in the American Iron Class.

7.4.4 Composite hoods, hatchbacks, trunk lids, and bumper covers (fiberglass/carbon fiber, etc.) are allowed within the power to weight ratio constraints of the American Iron Class.

7.4.5 Acid dipping or body panel lightening is not allowed in the American Iron Class.

 

This brings up a few questions:

 

Does this mean that I cannot lighten a panel that is otherwise allowed to be replaced with composite? For example, can the inner structure of a stock hood or part of a stock bumper cover be removed?

 

Does "body panel" mean any part of the body, or just external items? For example, can door inner structure be removed (except for impact beam) without NASCAR-style bars? Can parts inside the car such as the rear shoulder belt mounting brackets on a 91-93 Fox be modified/removed? Can the front inner fenders (other than the strut tower) be modified/lightened/removed?

 

Thanks...

[kurtborton]

I sure hope you can gut those things listed, otherwise half the cars out there are illegal.

[Tom Beverly]

Jeff, I asked about the hood/trunk lid, etc, a while back and was told that acid dipping is what what they were concrned about, not cutting out material. I'm not sure about the interior parts. From the way I read the rules, the only section forward of the firewall that must remain unmodified is the strut towers and frame rails.

[trackboss]

In my opinion the acid dipping rule is kinda stupid. Its true benefit is that the process thoroughly strips everything BUT the metal. For those building a car it makes things so much easier to dip the tub and not have to worry about scraping, sanding, etc. If you have ever seam welded a car you would have wished it was acid dipped. There are many seams that have seam sealer from the factory and other methods simply don't completely remove the stuff which makes welding more difficult. Not to mention the mess it creates to remove the sealer and breath it all at the same time. This rule should be lifted. Allowing acid dipping of the tub will save hours and hours of time that could be spent more efficiently.

[Hal]

That's not the kind of acid dipping they were worried about...think more aggressive acid and a longer stay in it...

[trackboss]

Although that can happen the rule wipes out any sort of acid dipping which rules out my thoughts above. On the other hand this cannot really be enforced.

There was an episode of american hot rod on discovery where they acid dipped an old chevy and it just blew my mind how clean the car came out after the process. It damn near looked as though the shell had just been put together like on the assembly line. Looked very clean. Media blasting is an alternative, but it cannot get into all the crevices that the dip will and depending on the media used it may not even remove exposed sealer that is soft like silicone. It just bounces off.

[Jeff F]

JWL, any discussion on this? I realize that many of the modifications I mention are commonly done in AI, but I'd like a clarification so that I know specifically what is legal and what isn't. Thanks.

[swhiteh3]

The majority of professional race cars I've been involved in building have been acid-dipped at some point. Sometimes they're dipped once, the cage and all cutting and welding is done, and then they are dipped again prior to paint. This is not for lightening - but it does a wonderful job of removing all the sealer, mastic, glues, residues, rust, paint, and every last piece of non-metallic crap in the car.

 

When I asked one acid-dip shop what the difference between our "cleaning" dip, and a "lightening" dip was, he didn't even know how he would do a dip with the intent of removing metal and thinning material. He thought he might be able to just leave it in longer, but he'd never done it, and had no idea what the outcome would be.

[JWL]

Jeff-

 

Sorry I let this one slip. I need to confer with the other guys about some points in your question, but I can tell you now that removing the interior sheet metal junk you refer to is OK (i.e. door sheet metal, seat belt mounts, other extraneous mounts). I will get a more definitive answer on the front inner fenders once we have a chance to discuss.

 

-JWL

[Rustic]

I think one of the confusing points here is the use of the word "acid."

This generic term is applied to a lot of things that may not really be acids at all.... paint strippers and cleaners for example.

 

I would suggest removing "acid dipping" from the rules and replace it with a term like "sheet metal thinning"... because the maner in which the body panels could be thined isn't really the issue.... is it?

[JWL]

Guys-

 

Front inner fenders are fair game, but the shock towers must remain as always.

 

Excellent points about the acid dipping stuff. I can't remember why we included this in the beginning, but I remember thinking it was a great idea then. We'll look at fixing this for the 2006 draft.

 

-JWL

[Guest]

Guys-

 

Front inner fenders are fair game, but the shock towers must remain as always.

 

Excellent points about the acid dipping stuff. I can't remember why we included this in the beginning, but I remember thinking it was a great idea then. We'll look at fixing this for the 2006 draft.

 

-JWL

John is this for both fore and aft of the shock tower?

[Jeff F]

JWL, not to be a pain in the ass, but in the interest of answering the original question and getting it "on the record", can you confirm that the following is specifically legal:

 

Lightening, by ANY means including thinning or trimming, of body panels that are otherwise legally replaceable by composite, such as hoods and bumper covers

 

Lightening or removal of interior and door sheetmetal

 

Thanks.

[JWL]

Jeff-

 

Yes to both.

 

Brian-

 

OK as long as the shock tower is unmolested. Send me pictures of what you're planning to make sure we're on the same page.

 

-JWL

[speedlab93]

In a class that has weight limits why should it matter what is done to the car aslong as it meets the min weight and is not in any other rules violations, and why can't i put fiberglass fenders on a AI car? but can put fiberglass hood trunk lid and lexan windows in it?

[Grizlbits]

In a class that has weight limits why should it matter what is done to the car aslong as it meets the min weight and is not in any other rules violations, and why can't i put fiberglass fenders on a AI car? but can put fiberglass hood trunk lid and lexan windows in it?

 

I agree about the "lightening" of the panels. That MAY or MAY NOT be addressed in the rules for '06. The Fiberglass /alternate material is okay for AIX, but not for AI. The directors think that alternate material panels are getting out of hand with the intent of the rules to keep "stock appearance". I also may be a deterent for others wanting to get into the series if they think they need to do the long list of this type of fairly serious modifications to be competative. I doubt that the alternate material panels will be legal in the near future.

[speedlab93]

the fiber glass fenders replacement is not an expencive or serious modification the are avaliable from AGE Classic Desighn inc. for $249.95 a pair they are tolally stock appearing. a replacement steel set runs new around $180, and good rust free used ones are hard to find in new york.

7.4.4 says composete hoods,hatchbacks,trunk lids and bumpercovers (fiberglass/carbonfiber,ect) are allowed within the power to weight ratio constraints of the Americain Iron class.

[Grizlbits]

7.4.4 says composete hoods,hatchbacks,trunk lids and bumpercovers (fiberglass/carbonfiber,ect) are allowed within the power to weight ratio constraints of the Americain Iron class.

 

True, I was refering to the fenders. As a director, changing the rule to allow alternate material fenders will definitly NOT HAPPEN this year. You are welcome to recommend as a '06 rule this fall in our annual Rule-suggestion-fest in or around October'ish.

[mwilson7]

We went down that slippery slope last year when we allowed fender flares and gave no limitation to the size of the flares. Which is more expensive? To buy a pre-made fiberglass fender or pay someone to cut and weld in a fender flare made out of steel?

 

I posted examples of what AI cars are being made and how 80-90% of the 1/4 panel is being replaced to "accomodate" te 275 size tires. At that time we brought up the issue that by going down this path we have now raised the price of entry into this class and it didn't seem to be an issue then so I don't see why it would be an issue now.

[speedlab93]

I just think that if it is a bolt on item u should be able to un bolt it and bolt some thig else in its place, how many people have sn95 mustangs with the Z3 style fenders on them. driving them every day on the street, if they wanted to run AI they couldn't even if this was thier only modification to an otherwise stock car. so who is deturing who?

Grizlbits, you were saying somthing about serious modifications scaring people away, cutting evry inch of sheet metal from the strut towers foward leaving only the frame rails is some serious modification as opesed to bolting on some fenders.

I don't meen to be an ass about this but they did put a min weight in there for some reason. It just seems odd to me that I can gut every usless peice of metal from my car and not bolt on a pair of fenders that might not even weigh less than gutted steel ones.

I'm just building my car now and just wan't to make shure every thing will be ok at the first race I compete in.

[mwilson7]

the fiber glass fenders replacement is not an expencive or serious modification the are avaliable from AGE Classic Desighn inc. for $249.95 a pair they are tolally stock appearing. a replacement steel set runs new around $180, and good rust free used ones are hard to find in new york.

 

The concept of rust on parts older that 7 years is not fully understood in places without snow and salt and there for not considered an issue.

[Jeff F]

I don't know about you guys, but my car came with fenders already on it. There were even painted! The same color as the rest of the car!

 

Speed, it is difficult to get to the minimum weight in AI, so rules were put in place that prevent people from spending big $ to get there... that's why there are no non-OEM aluminum blocks for instance. If 2lb carbon fenders are allowed, that is just one more thing that would be "required" for a competitive car. I don't really agree with the composite bumper covers/hatches/trunks, although rust free hatch's are getting hard to find so it is a replacement cost/availibility issue.

 

Lexan is inexpensive, and cutting stuff off is free.

[Grizlbits]

I will just point out again that the rule will NOT CHANGE THIS YEAR! Discussing this is moot and better saved for next years rule discussion.

[white_2kgt]

Acid Dipping was brought up in another thread, and while it wasn't the intended focus of that thread it reminded me of this one. Why is it we can't acid dip again? I sure would like to have my car acid dipped rather than spend the next month of evenings with a heat gun + paint scraper, again.