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sbarton

$30k to spend. C5 Z06 or Panoz GTS?

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sbarton

I'm currently a HPDE instructor in a 911, but looking to move to a higher HP car, with the ability to go racing later. Looking for a ST2/T1 C5 Z06 for around $30k or less. I see that you can get a Panoz GTS LS1 for around $27k.

1) Which car is better for the money?

2) Reliability?

3) Maintenance?

4) Consumables?

5) Can I get a quality race prepped C5 Z06 for under $30k?

6) Anything else?

 

-Scott

Edited by Guest

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drivinhardz06

5) Can I get a quality race prepped C5 Z06 for $30k?

 

I'll sell you one

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sbarton

I'd likely update the LS1 to an LS6 in the Panoz. What class would a LS6 powerd Panoz GTS be in? How competative would it be? Weight of the Panoz with 200lb driver would be 2900lbs.

 

-Scott

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kbrew8991

still depends on the whp, tire choice (width and dot vs non-dot) and so forth.

 

competitive vs not depends on prep...

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Cobra4B

Well it's your lucky day... I have both... and I seriously considered one of the LS1 Panoz cars from Wirewheel. The Panoz is technically my father's, but we've shared it over the past 2.5 years and we prepped it around TTS/ST2 rules. I'm currently building a TTA C5 Z06 as well.

 

The Panoz we purchased was a GTRA w/ the red/white Penske paint job. We got it from Wirewheel back in October 2007. In modifying the car we did the following:

 

1. Suspension - Panoz GTS suspension w/o the fancy Penske shocks: 550/350 F/R springs, fresh Koni shocks, GTS rear swaybar, steel front swaybar end-blades, all new heim-joints all around, and a new allignment w/ revised ride hieght to GTS specs. Turned the car from a pushing pig driving school car into an awesome neutral car with slight over-steer.

 

2. Power - Kept the existing 302 in place, but converted to a Pro-Systems carb setup and went with AFR 165s and a custom Ed Curtis cam... also put fresh FRPP shorties on it and dumped the glasspacks for some quieter Flowmaster 50s. The car made 315 rwhp, but 2 weeks ago it made 341 corrected on a dynojet when getting re-tuned.... so I'm right at the ST2/TTS limit

 

3. Brakes - We did nothing... the PFC rotos and PFC 97 pads w/ Brembo calipers are amazing... we've never changed the pads and we run 3-5 events per year both using the car and I've had it at a best of a 2:07.2 around VIR full

 

4. Interior Misch - I did add an analog tach and installed my Ultrashield seat as well as a new lexan rear piece.

 

Pros -

 

*Brake life is amazing w/ the least maintenance of any car I've dealt with

 

*The car is very light w/ the carb swap... it's about 2700 lbs w/ a full 25 gal fuel cel.

 

*It's easy to work on... you can get to everything and most all the parts are common and easy to find... the custom suspension bits are all Coleman

 

*Tons of room inside.... because it's a tube frame car w/ plastic body panels I have like a foot of headroom and I'm 6'4"

 

Cons -

 

*You really can't drive it on the street to test anything... it sticks out and has no VIN and you can't put plates on it and fool anyone. This stinks because we've had times were an issue reveals itself only when you get to the track. I'll drive it around my neighborhood, but you can't take it out and flog it at all w/o being at the track.... and having to load it up on the trailer to take it to a local auto-x to test stinks because it takes forever just to drive accross town.

 

*You really need two people to deal with it.... things like taking the hood off take 2 sets of hands

 

*No side windows... I have an open trailer so you have to get handy with the gorilla tape and garbage bags when it rains... my dad finally ordered an enclosed trailer. I will keep my open for my Corvette

 

*View - It has really high fenders and a high hoodline - I'm 6'4" so it's ok but i much prefer the view out of a C5... now the one benefit is it forces you to look up.... so if you have a problem with looking down this will help that... but it takes a bit to get used to how to place the car.

 

*Noise - the car is really really loud.... even w/ the quietest mufflers we could fit it's loud.... and the cockpit tub is just sheetmetal so it resonates at idle and the side exhaust is in your ear at WOT.

 

*It gets really hot - I don't have a cool shirt but want one by August.... The car is like a mini oven w/ the thin metal tub and the side pipes.... and this is with all the exhaust wrapped, DEI tunnel shielding on the entire tub, and carpet w/ DEI backing on select areas inside as they come from Panoz.... car really needs a coolshirt and helmet w/ a blower to be driven comfortably in the summer.

 

The Costs -

 

We got ours for $19k back in '07 from wirewheel.... total cost in the car now is probably $34k with everything, but that's because we paid a shop to do the suspension overhaul and motor work b/c I don't know Fords and I didn't have the time to learn or wrench on it and my father just doesn't have the time.... remove the labor bill for all of that and We'd be high 20's in the car.

 

Now since you're looking at the LS1 Penske car then that's just an amazing value for $27k.... the car's are just so neat and well done... the attention to detail is fantastic. The car would need no mods to go be a serious contender in ST2/TTS other than maybe some revised aero.... the guys on the Panoz forums are putting taller wing uprights and fabbing up front splitters with good results.

 

------------------------------------

 

C5 Corvettes - I know these cars like the back of my hand so I'm comfortable with them.... very comfortable. I just purchased my latest 2001 Z06 for $14.5k.... after all the work to it for TTA and selling off spare parts I'l have about $19-$20k in it before a cage.... this accounts for spare consumables i.e. wheels/tires/brakes/ and safelty stuff too.

 

But... it's this cheap b/c I'm doing all of the work other than the engine tune.... if you were to buy a C5 and pay for it you'd be in the $35k range.... which is what used Phoenix T1 cars still go for... well they ask $35k, but you could probably get one for $30k and they are very well sorted cars.

 

There are quite a few nice C5 race cars for sale on Corvetteforum in the auo-x RR section for high 20s lower 30s.... cars that would cost $50-$60k to replicate.

 

Pros to me -

 

*Power windows work well w/ my open trailer

 

*Car has plates on it so I cand test/tune on the street if needed

 

*Huge online resource/forums/vendors for parts info troubleshooting etc. etc.

 

*Better view from the cockpit

 

*All the power you need for TTS/ST2 w/ pretty much zero mods

 

*With the OEM Titanium Z06 mufflers in place the car is pretty quiet

 

Cons -

 

*Sile rail calipers taper pads and aftermarket brakes are $$$$$

 

*Aftermarket brakes require big wheels most of the time

 

*Wheel hubs are not servicable... when they go bad the Timken's from autozone are 180ea F and 140ea R.... the good SKF ones are $500 per corner! And even those can have the hub flange weld fail and that's no fun

 

*Rubber bushings can squish out of the front A-arms and poly has it's pros/cons (vs. the panoz that has all heimjoints)

 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

At the end of the day I decided I wanted to build a C5 b/c I know them and it's a better fit for my trailer setup and the fact that I can drive it on the street when needed and open the hood by myself. W/ the Panoz I always had to go get my GF to help take the hood on/off... it gets old.

 

My father made an offer on one of the LS1 Panoz cars and was considering selling his, but decided to just keep it and enjoy it and keep tinkering... you couldn't sell it for much more that $25k so you'd take a wash on what we have in it.

 

If you have an enclosed trailer and don't mind needing two people for some stuff get the LS1 Panoz.... they allready have amazing brakes all the coolers etc. etc. etc. $27k for one is an amazing deal for as nice as those cars are.

 

HTH - Brian

 

PS - Link to my current TTA build - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35493

 

The Panoz -

IMG_9497.jpg

 

Engine after I put new VCs and a catch can setup on it.... we had tried composite VCs but they were nothing but problems

DSCF3265.jpg

 

The inside w/ my traqmate install and the tack setup and new fire system I put in

DSCF3287.jpg

 

NACA ducts and "speed" holes for air flow

DSCF3292.jpg

DSCF3270.jpg

 

DEI on the tub underside and a plywood floor mat w/ truck bedliner to keep feet from getting hot

IMG_9843.jpg

IMG_9844.jpg

 

Converted the hood supports to pins to keep the hood from flopping at speed

IMG_9493.jpg

Edited by Guest

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ST#97

How about looking at the number of cars to run against in your class locally? You could find the cheapest/best vette in NJ and find you have no body to race with.

 

Vettes are expensive to race. Tires and brakes get expensive as do blown motors.

 

Have you ever considered a mustang? If so, I got a helluva deal for you at a little more than 1/2 of that $30k. You could buy/ship the car and have 3 seasons of race funds for $30k......

 

Finding a race prepped Z06 for $30k that isn't a basket case would be tough. If you like the panoz, get a 351 ford based motor version and be much more happy. Even the 302 based cars aren't bad and you can get motors for nearly nothing as they use a lot of mustang driveline parts. However, a well kept version is going to be pushing that $30k number pretty quick.

 

Whatever you do, don't buy someone elses mess they are running away from just because it sounds like a good deal. You will spend 10x as much fixing things and getting it reliable in the long run. Remember, building things right the first time costs money. Building it 3 more times costs 10x as much!

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Cobra4B

I'm running my TTA car on 275/40/17s all around, pads aren't that bad, rotors are $33 each, and I've had 4 C5s and never a motor issue.... ever.

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Cobra4B

Oh I forgot to add that I got the Panoz down in the low 2:07 at VIR full when it was making 314ish rwhp.... I'll have it at VIR this coming weekend for the UTCC on Friday then TTS Sat/Sunday. Shold be fun w/ the newly found power and fresh A6s... hope to get set a new PR.

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sbarton

Thanks Brian. That is a lot of help.

 

What do the ST2 Vettes run at VIR/WGI/MO?

 

-Scott

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drivinhardz06
Thanks Brian. That is a lot of help.

 

What do the ST2 Vettes run at VIR/WGI/MO?

 

-Scott

 

I think Danny Popp has gone 1:59 in a ST2/TTS vette at VIR

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Cobra4B
Thanks Brian. That is a lot of help.

 

What do the ST2 Vettes run at VIR/WGI/MO?

 

-Scott

 

I think Danny Popp has gone 1:59 in a ST2/TTS vette at VIR

Danny's car is ST1 which is 5.5lbs/horse.... it runs high 1:50s, but it's most definately not a ST2 car. Now that the Corvettes are spending money on aero They're in the low 2s. I think Wally's personal best is something like a 2:02.x, but it may be a low 2:03. Before the aero treatment 2:06-2:08s could compete in race trim on VIR full.

 

I have no idea about WGI/MO as I primarily go to VIR. On the Panoz we're running 275/40/17s all around... I haven't run the car with the new updated power figure yet and have never run it on A6s. My 2:07.3 was on R6s w/ 315 rwhp.

 

For reference Mark (drivinhard above) had run 2:06s in his TTA Z06 which at the time was basically a stock Z06 with a seat, T1 bars, and A6s.

 

There was a gentleman who had a GTRA like ours that he painted Petty blue and did some upgrads to the motor (but stayed EFI) who won the SE region in ST2 the year before last... can't remember his name, but I know the car was for sale.

 

If you haven't foud it allready http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=689 is the Panoz forum that all the folks who started acquiring these cars began posting on when Panoz started selling them all. Lots of great info there... and I know one of the Goldberg brothers is selling a very well sorted GTS that is an ST1 car.

 

That said... the level of attention to detail in the LS1 Penske cars that Wirewheel has is better than antything I've seen even better than a brand new GTS IMO b/c you get a EFI LS1 w/ a beautifully done wireing job (no rats nest crap) and trick stuff like carbon fiber air ducts (vs. the naca ducts I just taped in!) and an electric defrosted windshield etc. etc. Also those cars have the high $$$$ Penske shocks and allready have diff coolers.

 

Oh I forgot to add that we swapped the stock 3.50 gear for 3.89 gears in the GTRA as well.... GTS cars come w/ the option for 3.50 or 3.89s.... apparently most people get the 3.89s.

 

It's really only an issue in one place in the summer and 2 places in the winter. In the summer I'm in the rev limiter coming out of hogs pen.... in the winter I'm into it before entering the uphill esses, but all around everywhere else the car is much more repsonsive.

 

-Brian

 

-B

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drivinhardz06

danny's car is ST1, but he was driving James Forbis' car (ST2) last year when he ran a 1:59.

 

I think danny's ST1 car goes low 1:50's

 

we'll see what we can wring out of the 'ole 01 this weekend

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Cobra4B
danny's car is ST1, but he was driving James Forbis' car (ST2) last year when he ran a 1:59.

 

I think danny's ST1 car goes low 1:50's

 

we'll see what we can wring out of the 'ole 01 this weekend

Well dang.... I didn't know that. Good thing the doesn't run in ST2 regularly! I'm really curious to see what you can muster w/ that new fancy on/off switch in there... should be fun. When will you be arriving at the track?

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drivinhardz06
When will you be arriving at the track?

 

probably 6:59 am

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sperkins
looking to move to a higher HP car, with the ability to go racing later.

 

Depends on how much later. No need to drop 30 grand for a race prepped car if you're not going to race it. Why not consider a cheap C5Z like Brian did and just do the safety mods and cage it later. I spent less than 12 for my Corvette and it's darn fast for a stock suspension (other than T1 bars) 134,000 mile LS1 with headers.

A C5Z is a lot of car right out of the box.

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sbarton

I want a race prepped one b/c I would rather buy a well sorted one that can stand up to track abuse, then build my own from a street car. Been there done that.

Also I'm sure one that was built for a race class will be more sorted than a DE car for the same $$.

 

I will likely race next year, but prolly only a few events, nothing serious (famous last words ).

 

-Scott

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panozracing
I want a race prepped one b/c I would rather buy a well sorted one that can stand up to track abuse, then build my own from a street car. Been there done that.

Also I'm sure one that was built for a race class will be more sorted than a DE car for the same $$.

 

I will likely race next year, but prolly only a few events, nothing serious (famous last words ).

 

-Scott

 

I am a little biased but I think you cannot buy a better car for the money (see link below Panoz GTS). Run ST1 and win or detune a little (the motor will last forever) and run ST2 and win.

 

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=977320

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RacingIsLife

Scott,

I am the "other" goldburg brother selling a well sorted ST1 Spec Panoz GTS.

I can get you into my car for your budget, and you will be getting a WHOLE LOTTA CAR for your money.

We made mods to the GTS that make it capable of winning ST1 Nationals, with low operating costs and high reliability.

Call or email me so we can discuss further:

Dan 561-719-4387

[email protected]

 

Along with the previous link Brian posted, here is a link to the racing junk ad:

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/83/GT/post/1810721/Panoz-GTS-00-modified-to-win-NASA-ST1-R1.html

 

 

i'll also try emailing you...

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RacingIsLife

HERE IS YOUR CHANCE!!!

PANOZ GTS, 427 Stroker, detuned with a 390 carb to max out ST1 Specs with 470 HP at the REAR WHEELS, gobs of torque, aero mods, and more.

 

I have had this car for sale since the beginning of the year. I have turned down a few offers that I would probably take today. I have bought another race car (sports racers style), so it is time for my Panoz to go. I have had a lot of great years with the car, and now it is someone else's turn to do the same.

 

The car is up for auction on Ebay. The reserve is VERY LOW, so the car is going to sell!

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290460040870&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT

 

The car is mechanically perfect. The body work has some cracks that have been repaired with aluminum backing. You can see lots of pictures and information in the auction details. Free delivery in Florida.

 

I hope this car finds a home in the NASA ST community. If you are looking for a GTS, or know someone who is, this is your LAST CHANCE on this car. It WILL SELL THIS TIME, believe me... the reserve is low enough.

 

GOOD LUCK TO ANYONE INTERESTED!!

Feel free to ask any quesitons.

 

Previous thread from Panoz Forum:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=977320

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RacingIsLife

the reserve is off! $25k and up takes this fast, class winning St1 car! Here is your chance to get into a great race car for a reasonable, market rate price!

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Varkwso
How about looking at the number of cars to run against in your class locally? You could find the cheapest/best vette in NJ and find you have no body to race with.

 

Vettes are expensive to race. Tires and brakes get expensive as do blown motors.

 

Have you ever considered a mustang? If so, I got a helluva deal for you at a little more than 1/2 of that $30k. You could buy/ship the car and have 3 seasons of race funds for $30k......

 

Finding a race prepped Z06 for $30k that isn't a basket case would be tough. If you like the panoz, get a 351 ford based motor version and be much more happy. Even the 302 based cars aren't bad and you can get motors for nearly nothing as they use a lot of mustang driveline parts. However, a well kept version is going to be pushing that $30k number pretty quick.

 

Whatever you do, don't buy someone elses mess they are running away from just because it sounds like a good deal. You will spend 10x as much fixing things and getting it reliable in the long run. Remember, building things right the first time costs money. Building it 3 more times costs 10x as much!

 

My co-driver bought a well sorted C5 after the SCCA nationals last year for mid 20's with a fresh drivetrain. Run like a champ all year - it has had a few issues but nothing major.

 

Bought a new complete LS6 delivered to the house for $3245. My CMC legal Mustang motor with no pan or intake was $3745 and I picked it up...

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kbrew8991

MFW - you'll have more of a case when you outrun Farmer's Corvette

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ST#97
MFW - you'll have more of a case when you outrun Farmer's Corvette

 

I'll need to find about 30-40 rwhp and torque to make that happen. I am looking at doing a new set of heads and freshen the shortblock in the off season after I finish building Misty's camaro and the Lemons Neon. Should have those two done by end of october so we will have to see about 2011 for a full ST2 season for me.

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Eric1h

I have an LS6 Powered Panoz GTWC, so we'll see how well it does in ST2!

 

Its an awesome car and hard to beat the performance/$$ if you ask me.

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