ST#97 Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Don't see the hubbub for the coyote being an AI motor even with tuning.... It has anemic torque compared to HP... Similar to the E92 M3 motor that can't do didley unless it's wound up to the moon and that won't last long with non-forged engine parts. I'm reading about numbers coming in all the time with LT's, exhaust and a tune putting down 420rwhp....and WELL under 400rwtq...think 380's. The cylinder head design and cam operation is designed for High RPM power. you start stalling that airflow trying to make 350 rwhp and that thing will grenade faster than an LSX in Pat's car. Also, IMHO....changing HP/WT in AI will doom it even further as racers have to pony up for more power and less reliability. Don't know if you guys are tracking but there are 20+ AI cars for sale in the US right now. Considering there are probably less than 80 cars nationally that are hitting races regularly...rules changes supporting the new iron aren't the answer in this club racing economy. Rules that end up being moving targets kill club racer budgets and car count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 the class is reaching generational change. combine a bad economy with a big percentage of obsolete and old worn out race cars and a lot of AI cars for sale isnt a shock. how many of these cars for sale are of the current generation? I dont see them. What I seeing are fox body and first gen SN95 mustangs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 the class is reaching generational change. combine a bad economy with a big percentage of obsolete and old worn out race cars and a lot of AI cars for sale isnt a shock. how many of these cars for sale are of the current generation? I dont see them. What I seeing are fox body and first gen SN95 mustangs. The class is actually reaching death IMHO. Most of the cars for sale are for sale because they are tired of being outspent by the percieved notion that AI cars need to be less than 5 years old and make 400rwhp to be cool or competitive. Think about your market of us mullett heads that want to road race mustangs or camaros of any vintage While spending cubic dollars more than CMC/2. Think HARD about that statement. It's a dying bread of road racer. If someone has to spend 50k to 100k to build a NEW fancy smancy competitive car, they are going to go buy a vette or BMW and run 3 to 6 seconds a lap faster than us. I wish someone would buy my nationally competitive obsolete 11 year old car.... When the formula for AI is a spec size tire for all, and a minimum weight of 2700lbs is on the table....I see all those "old worn out race cars" as perfect platforms to have the lightest car possible, especially given the weight of the fancy new cars and the cost to strip weight out of them. Sure BIG power is fun....till you watch a 2900lb car drive buy you in the braking zone! Right Rusty! If you cater a class to the top 10 big spenders....you will end up with a class of 10 cars....rule 7.007 of racing, also known as the John Heinricy in A-sedan postulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 the class is reaching generational change. combine a bad economy with a big percentage of obsolete and old worn out race cars and a lot of AI cars for sale isnt a shock. how many of these cars for sale are of the current generation? I dont see them. What I seeing are fox body and first gen SN95 mustangs. How many cars of the current generation hold track records at tracks where Nats are held? Hmmm... I think that both of those cars happen to be obsolete Fox chassis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 the upgrade from fox body to sn95 body didnt change the dynamic of competition. the s197 is different and does change the dynamic. regardless. time passes. laps add up. a 20-25 year old chassis with 10 years of racing on it is going to wear down. either new equipment comes in to replace used up stuff or the entries disappear. maybe the class is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 the upgrade from fox body to sn95 body didnt change the dynamic of competition. the s197 is different and does change the dynamic. regardless. time passes. laps add up. a 20-25 year old chassis with 10 years of racing on it is going to wear down. either new equipment comes in to replace used up stuff or the entries disappear. maybe the class is dead. Explain the bolded part please. Laws and physics of racing on a spec brand and size tire with fixed Power to weight: 1. Lighter is better. 2. Sleeker and aerodynamics are key. 3. Use of downforce allowed and is efficient to not violating rule 2 is paramount. So, how is a heavy, square nosed car with a motor that can't meet the AI torque/hp formulas a BETTER car....? School me por favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 i am not going to fight about it. if you dont think the current package is an advantage, thats ok with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 I'm considering turning my T2 Shelby GT into an AI car. + plus Bigger fields than SCCA Mid-Ohio Mid-Ohio Coilovers 6-speed Did I say Mid-Ohio - minus Aero bullsheit Toyo Tires, older tires should be slower not faster..... only 2 race groups, a whole lotta cars out there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 one that you forgot. look up the price on an 18" 275/35 Toyo RA1. BFG $257. Hoosier R6 $278. Toyo Ra1 $338. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 one that you forgot. look up the price on an 18" 275/35 Toyo RA1. BFG $257. Hoosier R6 $278. Toyo Ra1 $338. Are you kidding me?? I thought those POS street tires would be cheaper!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 well...in 17's they are cheaper. in 18's though...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted August 28, 2010 Share Posted August 28, 2010 Dont worry as they last 5 times as long at least in heat cycles. Jump on in the water is warm and you will enjoy running with us in AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted August 28, 2010 Share Posted August 28, 2010 the upgrade from fox body to sn95 body didnt change the dynamic of competition. the s197 is different and does change the dynamic. regardless. time passes. laps add up. a 20-25 year old chassis with 10 years of racing on it is going to wear down. either new equipment comes in to replace used up stuff or the entries disappear. maybe the class is dead. Uhh... AI wasn't around for the Fox to SN95 changeover. Why does the S197 change anything? Because Mustang guys didn't have to throw away the whole suspension and spend $$$ for the car to handle? Any chassis will wear down, that's why you have to freshen/maintain it. This is AI, pickup points are basically unlimited, power to weight is mandated, and it's on a spec tire. Everyone should be looking for the best silhouette to cut through the air and a suspension that keeps the tire on the pavement. I could understand your argument if the class had more suspension rules, but we can basically start from scratch, so what's it matter what the factory used? ---------------------- Brett, come on out. Don't worry too much about the aero stuff. There are some racers that do well with very little. As far as run group car counts, we had 58 at Mid-O on Sat and 57 on Sun. It was a hoot! It's a little intimidating at first, but it makes you a better racer when you can pick through traffic faster. Luckily, we're somewhere in the middle to the top of the speed chart, so you only have to worry about 5-10 cars lapping you in a race. 18" Toyos are more expensive then other brands, but I can only assume they'll be cheaper then Hoosiers because you can run them for 3-4+ weekends before you cord them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 28, 2010 Share Posted August 28, 2010 the good news is the that toyo keeps its race speed longer than the hoosier. its not so true of the bf goodrich, though. its probably not true of the new goodyear DOT tire either. lets be honest, if toyo pricing was 25-40% more than kumho or bfg in every size, they wouldnt be the spec tire for the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted August 30, 2010 Share Posted August 30, 2010 the upgrade from fox body to sn95 body didnt change the dynamic of competition. the s197 is different and does change the dynamic. At the risk of getting beat. We currently have a Fox and have been renting a S197 half this season to assess buying one this winter to have 2 cars. I think the original comment is valid with a little qualification. The S197 is a better platform to start from than a Fox or SN95. (And I lump Fox and SN95 together- our car shares so many parts with a SN95 it might as well be one- hence the original comment about that change not changing the dynamic much) The S197 has more track and wheelbase and a much stiffer base platform. This doesn't mean it is a better car, just that it is easier (and cheaper) to get to handle well. Our Fox, with a significant amount of work and parts, handles as well as the S197 we have been renting (Burnett's 2008 Championship car- so it's not a beater) The S197 is running close to Ford Performance stock suspension parts except for the coil overs and some nice Steeda stuff to aid in adjustments. You look under the S197 and most everything looks "similar" to a street car. You look at our Fox suspension and NOTHING looks like it came on a production Mustang. Plus a huge rear wing and front splitter on the Fox just to get it to handle close to the S197. Agreed, we are all on the same HP/Tq scale and same tire. All this means is the car that maintains the best contact patch will be "better". It's easier to get a S197 to be "better" than a Fox. j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 Well put, Jim and welcome Brett! -=- Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Prolly never see a "real" Boss or Boss LS as a race car.... I copied this from the Ford Dealer website today(don't know if that is legal), Boss cars will be rare Boss LS will be very rare. I like the way Ford did the 95 Cobra R, you had to show a race license to buy one.. Let the games begin!!! To: All Ford Dealers Subject: EFC0202316DC 2012 Boss Mustang Allocation Strategy The New Boss 302 is back after a 40 year hiatus. This no-nonsense enthusiast track car is built for the street with the race track as its lab. The 2012 Mustang Boss 302 is set to become the best-handling Mustang ever offered by Ford. This purpose built vehicle is available in two trims for a limited run --Boss 302 & Boss 302 "Laguna Seca" package featuring a 440 HP Hi-Po 302 V8 Engine. Methods for Earning Allocation All Ford dealers will have the opportunity to earn a 2012 Boss 302 Mustang. There are two methods for earningx allocation: 1) Share of Nation Approximately 75% of the 2012 Boss 302 production will be allocated to the Ford dealers as a Share of Nation Those dealers that sell 75% of the retail Mustangs will participate in the Share of Nation allocation (retail Mustang sales % of Nation) -- through July, this is the Top 794 Mustang dealers 12 months of sales (October '09 - September '10) will be used to determine dealers participating in the Share of Nation. A dealers opportunity to increase share of nation allocation or inclusion in the Top 75% is increased with each Mustang sold through the end of September Each of the dealers participating in the Share of Nation is guaranteed at least one Boss 302 2) Lottery Those Ford dealers not participating in the Share of Nation will be entered into a Lottery for the balance of the allocation Each dealership participating in the Lottery will receive one chip (entry into the lottery) for being a dealer and one chip for each retail sale over the 12-month period (October '09 - September '10) Those dealers with ZERO Mustang sales over the last 12-month period will each receive one chip in the lottery No dealer will earn more then one Boss 302 through the lottery Note: The Laguna Seca Package will be allocated by a second lottery for all dealers earning a Boss 302 through Share of Nation or Lottery. To help manager customer expectations for ordering the 2012 Boss 302 Mustang, all 2011 MY dealer production guides will be communicated in early October. Dealers will be given their full year guide numbers along with the quarter(s) their unit(s) will be scheduled. This will enable dealers to manage customer expectations regarding availability and timing. Production is scheduled to begin in late January and will conclude in December 2011. Since it's unveiling on August 13th, the 2012 Boss Mustang has created a tremendous amount of excitement amongst our dealers and customers. It is our hope that this allocation strategy will support your efforts in providing customers with a clear understanding of this new and exciting best in class product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Bret I read that as 794 cars getting one or more cars plus another 200 or so thru a lottery. A second lottery will be held for LS cars with those cars coming from the initial allocation rather than in addition to that allocation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKBITN Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Those's car's will be at least $25.000 over invoice to start.I love Ford's but the dealer's will be ripping everyone a new a$$ even with the economy in the tank.Bastard's!!! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 i hope to be able to buy one myself. i will be upset if i cant get one because the dealers mark the price up beyond what i can afford. on the other hand aren't they supposed to be selling the cars and trucks for the best price they can get for them? often that means at a discount. if they can raise the price by $25k per car and then sell them, thats the market price. right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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