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profeser

Yet another ? about reclassing per weight and dyno results

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profeser

Hi, before I get ahead of myself, I just want to make sure I understand how reclassing works. I have read the rule book a few times and want to make sure I am not missing anything.

 

1- declare a minimum competition weight

2- Provide three dyno plots from the same day/time performed by a certified dyno station(ie. NASA certified tech inspection shop)

3- Email all of the above information to Greg and he will give you your new base class regardless of base class listed in rules.

4- The car at no time can ever weigh less than your declared weight, no matter if you have extra points to try and use for weight reduction.

5- The car at no time can ever have more Rear Wheel Horsepower than the submitted dyno sheets.

 

Ok I have one question and then my example calculation.

How does the dyno smoothing factor(of up to 5)work? If you choose a factor of 1 will it show hp spikes of each horsepower? Or conversely a factor of 5 would have to have a hp spike of larger than 5hp to show?

 

So my example calculation is;

 

weight - 2600lbs as car comes off the track

Rear Wheel Horse Power - 130

From Appendix C, Tires less than 245mm = +0.8

From Appendix C weight Table 2600lbs = -0.65

2600/130 = 20lbs/hp

20+0.8-0.65=20.15 lbs/hp

So the new base class is TTF

 

From this point you then take all of the other mod points for suspension, tires, aero, etc...?

 

So is this about right or what have I missed.

 

Thanks and sorry for the long post

Paul

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kbrew8991

You will be given the new base class - this is why it gets sent into Greg. You can't pick it like that. Other than that you're on the right track.

 

I'm a bit fuzzy on how the Dynojet smoothing factors work other than you can choose which to use - sometimes it lowers your peak as you smooth it out more, sometimes it raises it - pick what you feel comfortable with

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profeser
You will be given the new base class - this is why it gets sent into Greg. You can't pick it like that. Other than that you're on the right track.

quote]

 

Hi Ken, I do understand Greg will assign a new base class. I am just trying to determine if the car I am considering buying and prepping is worth doing. It is an 87 RX7 and while its base class is TTE by the rules they don't seem to be competative. When I run the numbers it seems that the car should really be in TTF. If(the biggest word in every language) I can with reasonable certainty have it reclassed by power/weight and be competative, I want to buy it and get ready for next season.

 

I really just want to make sure I am not missing anything or not taking something into consideration. If the rules state a 19.5/1 limit for TTF and my car has a 20.15 lbs/hp ratio, then would it be reasonable to think it could be reclassed to TTF or ???

 

Thanks very much for the help

Paul

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jason

If everyone put this much planning into the car/class before entering TT, we could cut Director's pay in half.

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kbrew8991

until Greg releases at least the criteria he looks at we'll never have a good feel for what a base class will come back at.

 

I'm about 2 points below the TTF limit, but, I got a TTF* reclass. Why? Dunno.

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Shawn M.
If everyone put this much planning into the car/class before entering TT, we could cut Director's pay in half.

 

 

That would be sweet!

 

BTW, One of the best prepared PTE-TTE car ive ever seen was an RX7. (first gen)

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clydesdale

Sorry to chime in so late, but I'm studying this as well.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mistake most people make is thinking that the TT class hp/weight ratio limits are related to reclassing when there is no relationship. The ratio limits prevent cars from using modification points to exceed competitive standards (for instance hypothetically an ECU map giving you +100hp). There are no public guidelines or predictions (beyond educated guesses) for reclassing other than to submit the car type, weight, and hp to Greg. You'll find that in all cases the classing ratio is not even close to the limit ratio.

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Greg G.
Sorry to chime in so late, but I'm studying this as well.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mistake most people make is thinking that the TT class hp/weight ratio limits are related to reclassing when there is no relationship. The ratio limits prevent cars from using modification points to exceed competitive standards (for instance hypothetically an ECU map giving you +100hp). There are no public guidelines or predictions (beyond educated guesses) for reclassing other than to submit the car type, weight, and hp to Greg. You'll find that in all cases the classing ratio is not even close to the limit ratio.

Correct, up until the last sentence. If one is requesting a Dyno re-class for a base class with two asterisks, it is possible that it would be very close to the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for that class. Of course, that would only leave 5 points for tire, suspension, aero, brake, cage, chassis mods, so in most cases would not be used. In fact, I have sent Dyno re-classes out for an X** re-class that would put the car under the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp if the driver attempted to run in class X. Also, the "worse" your car is from a starting point in regard to OEM engineering, design, build, drivetrain, aero, the more likely that the re-class would put you closer to the limit on Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. You are correct that the formula used for re-classing has no direct relationship to the limits an Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. It is completely based on the system that gives us the initial base classing listed in the Rules.

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dbgeek
It is an 87 RX7 and while its base class is TTE by the rules they don't seem to be competative. When I run the numbers it seems that the car should really be in TTF.

Be careful with your points - the classing states it is for the base car. You have to take quite a few points for stock components on the GXL or Sport. My 86 Sport was 2725 with full interior and me in it. It also made 160+ rwhp with the stock ECU and headers. After strip and cage, it was 2650 comp weight and made 183 rwhp (140 lb-ft). As discussed in another thread, the suspension geometry (and bushings DTSS) need fixing to compete with a miata or honda.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done - I'm simply saying that you are on the right track by working out the classing even before you begin. This points game came around after my car was built to (mostly) ITS.

 

Good Luck!

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clydesdale
Sorry to chime in so late, but I'm studying this as well.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mistake most people make is thinking that the TT class hp/weight ratio limits are related to reclassing when there is no relationship. The ratio limits prevent cars from using modification points to exceed competitive standards (for instance hypothetically an ECU map giving you +100hp). There are no public guidelines or predictions (beyond educated guesses) for reclassing other than to submit the car type, weight, and hp to Greg. You'll find that in all cases the classing ratio is not even close to the limit ratio.

Correct, up until the last sentence. If one is requesting a Dyno re-class for a base class with two asterisks, it is possible that it would be very close to the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for that class. Of course, that would only leave 5 points for tire, suspension, aero, brake, cage, chassis mods, so in most cases would not be used. In fact, I have sent Dyno re-classes out for an X** re-class that would put the car under the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp if the driver attempted to run in class X. Also, the "worse" your car is from a starting point in regard to OEM engineering, design, build, drivetrain, aero, the more likely that the re-class would put you closer to the limit on Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. You are correct that the formula used for re-classing has no direct relationship to the limits an Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. It is completely based on the system that gives us the initial base classing listed in the Rules.

 

Thanks Greg for the insight. I've seen the X** classing that you point out where the car can't actually compete in X. And there are certainly cars even at X* that are pushing the limit as well. In re-reading my post I understand your point exactly.

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davecarama

Is there ever a time someone brings to your attention a car that has been "re-classed" and is now stomping any and all classes even 3 and 4 classes higher... and also stomping on track records too? Are these cars ever Re-Re-Classed?

 

Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

 

Just curious.

 

Thanks for all the good input!

 

Dave

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TurboShortBus
Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

Cars can still be reclassed with * or ** for fine-tuning reasons, just like the typical base classifications in the rules.

 

Double-check with Greg, but if you want to "roll your own" re-classification by saying you want to end up in TT(X) and you're making horsepower Y, he might be able to tell you what your weight needs to be. Or, give him your desired re-class and weight and he might be able to tell you what your RWHP needs to be. Again, check with Greg to be sure.

 

Mark

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kbrew8991

Mark's right - you can get a few options for a TT_ reclass with _ stars if you have 2 out of the 3 factors nailed down. Be nice and give him a realistic range for the 3rd option though or not

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spericas
Correct, up until the last sentence. If one is requesting a Dyno re-class for a base class with two asterisks, it is possible that it would be very close to the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for that class. Of course, that would only leave 5 points for tire, suspension, aero, brake, cage, chassis mods, so in most cases would not be used. In fact, I have sent Dyno re-classes out for an X** re-class that would put the car under the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp if the driver attempted to run in class X. Also, the "worse" your car is from a starting point in regard to OEM engineering, design, build, drivetrain, aero, the more likely that the re-class would put you closer to the limit on Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. You are correct that the formula used for re-classing has no direct relationship to the limits an Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. It is completely based on the system that gives us the initial base classing listed in the Rules.

 

Just to be crystal clear. In your example of X** re-classing, if the driver found a way to stay in X by using no more than 5 additional points, he/she would still be able to run in X even if under the wt/hp limit, right? I.e., the wt/hp limit is no longer applicable after re-classing?

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

-- Santiago

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kbrew8991
Correct, up until the last sentence. If one is requesting a Dyno re-class for a base class with two asterisks, it is possible that it would be very close to the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for that class. Of course, that would only leave 5 points for tire, suspension, aero, brake, cage, chassis mods, so in most cases would not be used. In fact, I have sent Dyno re-classes out for an X** re-class that would put the car under the limit of Adjusted Wt/Hp if the driver attempted to run in class X. Also, the "worse" your car is from a starting point in regard to OEM engineering, design, build, drivetrain, aero, the more likely that the re-class would put you closer to the limit on Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. You are correct that the formula used for re-classing has no direct relationship to the limits an Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio. It is completely based on the system that gives us the initial base classing listed in the Rules.

 

Just to be crystal clear. In your example of X** re-classing, if the driver found a way to stay in X by using no more than 5 additional points, he/she would still be able to run in X even if under the wt/hp limit, right? I.e., the wt/hp limit is no longer applicable after re-classing?

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

-- Santiago

 

nope - you'd have to run less hp and/or more weight to abide by the hp/weight caps - IE those caps still apply to both styles of classifications. Been hashed out many times

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TurboShortBus

Bold/italicized font added by me for emphasis.

 

6.1.2 Minimum Adjusted Weight/Power Ratios for each Class

 

Each class has been assigned a minimum “Adjusted” weight/power ratio. Regardless of how many points a car has, or which base class it begins in, it may not exceed the minimum “Adjusted” weight/power ratio for its competition class. Any vehicle found competing with an “Adjusted” weight/power ratio less than the minimum level assigned below will be disqualified, and additional penalties may be assessed.

 

TTA 8.70:1

TTB 10.25:1

TTC 12.00:1

TTD 14.25:1

TTE 16.50:1

TTF 19.50:1

Mark

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spericas
Just to be crystal clear. In your example of X** re-classing, if the driver found a way to stay in X by using no more than 5 additional points, he/she would still be able to run in X even if under the wt/hp limit, right? I.e., the wt/hp limit is no longer applicable after re-classing?

 

nope - you'd have to run less hp and/or more weight to abide by the hp/weight caps - IE those caps still apply to both styles of classifications. Been hashed out many times

 

OK, that was my original understanding, but before reading this thread I did not know it was possible to classify a car with a base class in which it could not compete. Moreover, I was under the impression these limits were added in 2010, so it wasn't clear to me how this was prevented before. In any case, it's clear now that the limits apply to all cars --which makes things easier. Thanks.

 

-- Santiago

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clydesdale
Is there ever a time someone brings to your attention a car that has been "re-classed" and is now stomping any and all classes even 3 and 4 classes higher... and also stomping on track records too? Are these cars ever Re-Re-Classed?

 

Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

 

Just curious.

 

Thanks for all the good input!

 

Dave

 

Do you have a specific example of this? Typically dyno reclassing would pin down the car more firmly and fairly with verifiable hp and weight. You'd have better luck gaming the system by finding points modifications that yield disproportionate performance increases or cars that are mis-classed on the first classing iteration (e.g. Evo X, Z06, Lotus Elise, S2000).

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nasaregistrar
Is there ever a time someone brings to your attention a car that has been "re-classed" and is now stomping any and all classes even 3 and 4 classes higher... and also stomping on track records too? Are these cars ever Re-Re-Classed?

 

Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

 

Just curious.

 

Thanks for all the good input!

 

Dave

 

Do you have a specific example of this? Typically dyno reclassing would pin down the car more firmly and fairly with verifiable hp and weight. You'd have better luck gaming the system by finding points modifications that yield disproportionate performance increases or cars that are mis-classed on the first classing iteration (e.g. Evo X, Z06, Lotus Elise, S2000).

David is talking about a supercharged Miata that is crushing TTE in MA with 138 whp (Putting 3 seconds on a well prepared, well driven PTE car at summit)

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vpnwiz
David is talking about a supercharged Miata that is crushing TTE in MA with 138 whp (Putting 3 seconds on a well prepared, well driven PTE car at summit)

Oh Mm Gee. Somebody lock this thread already.

 

But to answer this specific question...

Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

Depends on the car. Basically, you cross out all the line items for engine and weight - you still have to take points for everything else. The base class doesn't start at zero though... it could be no stars, 1 star (12 points to spend), or 2 stars (5 points to spend). Don't forget that tires play an important role in this too. There are other threads that go into much more detail on all this though.

 

Patrick

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nasaregistrar
David is talking about a supercharged Miata that is crushing TTE in MA with 138 whp (Putting 3 seconds on a well prepared, well driven PTE car at summit)

Oh Mm Gee. Somebody lock this thread already.

 

But to answer this specific question...

Also, when a car is re-classed, how do points work? Are they classed to said class and still have 19pts to spend?

Depends on the car. Basically, you cross out all the line items for engine and weight - you still have to take points for everything else. The base class doesn't start at zero though... it could be no stars, 1 star (12 points to spend), or 2 stars (5 points to spend). Don't forget that tires play an important role in this too. There are other threads that go into much more detail on all this though.

 

Patrick

I don't think the thread needs to be locked. David asked a legit question, someone asked for an example and it was provided.

 

I think the question is fair because I don't think the reclass intent is to create class killer cars....

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kbrew8991

most aren't - jus sayin

 

probably easier to correct a car that might have been missed on slightly than to throw the baby out with the bathwater by outlawing all reclasses all together. If that car is indeed off - I dunno if it is or not.

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nasaregistrar
most aren't - jus sayin

 

probably easier to correct a car that might have been missed on slightly than to throw the baby out with the bathwater by outlawing all reclasses all together. If that car is indeed off - I dunno if it is or not.

Hey Ken,

 

I know you understand ( cough,something, something, cough, reclassed, cough, something, cough)

 

I don't believe that anyone suggested outlawing reclassing either. The car absolutely is playing by the rules and no one is suggesting that it isn't either. The point of the TT/PT classing is to make as many different cars as 'equal' as possible. This one is a little more equal....

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Varkwso

We had a reclassed engine swap BMW in NASA-SE. It crushed its competition in class for one year. It was re-reclassed in 2010.

 

 

So re-reclassing adjustments happen.

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TurboShortBus
David is talking about a supercharged Miata that is crushing TTE in MA with 138 whp (Putting 3 seconds on a well prepared, well driven PTE car at summit)

Out of curiosity, does anybody know the amount of torque that this car is making? I know that only horsepower and weight are used for base reclassing, but IMO, this leaves the door wide open for building a low-end torque monster while still falling within the minimum weight/power ratio requirements.

 

For example, if I was to theoretically start from scratch, I would build a turbocharged engine with a boost controller that would allow, say, 15 psi down low and then bleed off boost as the RPMs increase in order to keep the RWHP below the limit. But, down low, HP and torque would be relatively insane for that RPM range and the car would pull out of corners like mad. The HP and torque dyno curves would shoot up to the limits as quickly as possible, then level off. The peak HP and weight numbers would be submitted for base reclassing, and away I would go with a very purpose-built ringer (although the driver, in my case, would still suck).

 

Mark

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