vpnwiz Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 That's a really interesting thought (about building an engine that way). Is it even doable? And not in a "on the ragged edge" kind of way, but in a reliable manner? I've heard this idea brought up before, and even asked my shop about it, and they were really skeptical. I think a better way to do it would be throw a torque-motor swap in a lower class - since we're already hp restricted it's a natural fit. See the RX7 in PTD sporting a GM V6... excellent idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 David is talking about a supercharged Miata that is crushing TTE in MA with 138 whp (Putting 3 seconds on a well prepared, well driven PTE car at summit) Out of curiosity, does anybody know the amount of torque that this car is making? I know that only horsepower and weight are used for base reclassing, but IMO, this leaves the door wide open for building a low-end torque monster while still falling within the minimum weight/power ratio requirements. For example, if I was to theoretically start from scratch, I would build a turbocharged engine with a boost controller that would allow, say, 15 psi down low and then bleed off boost as the RPMs increase in order to keep the RWHP below the limit. But, down low, HP and torque would be relatively insane for that RPM range and the car would pull out of corners like mad. The HP and torque dyno curves would shoot up to the limits as quickly as possible, then level off. The peak HP and weight numbers would be submitted for base reclassing, and away I would go with a very purpose-built ringer (although the driver, in my case, would still suck). Mark I think Mark has it on the nose. The lap time differential is not so extreme at VIR full where the higher HP car makes up some time on the straights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 That's a really interesting thought (about building an engine that way). Is it even doable? And not in a "on the ragged edge" kind of way, but in a reliable manner? I've heard this idea brought up before, and even asked my shop about it, and they were really skeptical. It absolutely is, and I have done it before back in my drag racing days when experimenting with a manual-style boost controller on a turbocharged 302 in my Mustang. It was able to shoot up to 13 psi quickly, but the boost would eventually drop to 9 psi and stay there. This was the exact opposite of what I wanted for drag racing, so I removed it; however, with more tweaking, it would work great for what we're discussing here (corner exit traction notwithstanding). And, this was with a manual boost controller built with hardware store parts nearly 10 years ago; any of the newer electronic controllers should be able to accurately do whatever you want with the boost. As for "in a reliable manner," do you mean "won't blow the engine up" or "will reliably and consistently maintain the maximum RWHP level?" As for the former, it will be fine as long as the ECU is tuned properly. However, as for the latter, the amount of consistency is directly proportional to the driver's honesty (GPS will become very helpful here as these units are made available to the regions). We have a couple of turbocharged cars in my region that several of us are quite skeptical about, as their lap times are insanely fast while other well-prepared, well-driven cars in their class cannot keep up. Maybe it's simply a case of much, much larger huevos on these particular drivers, or maybe there could be "something else to it" (elevated/undetectable boost levels, lack of torque limits/regulation, etc.). A boost limit of, say, 8 psi does not equate to the same RWHP number in 100*F weather as it does in 70*F weather. While this is true for naturally aspirated cars as well, the discrepancy is greater for forced induction cars; they slow down more in hot weather, and speed up more in cold weather. As for the supercharged TTE Miata that is crushing all comers, I'm guessing that the supercharger is a Roots or screw blower, and not a centrifugal blower; is this correct? Centrifugal blowers add little or no bottom end power or torque (I also had one on the aforementioned 302 Mustang, and I am lucky enough to be able to share a Rotrex-supercharged Miata in TTD from time to time), but the Roots and screw blowers make tons of low-end power and torque by nature. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I agree with Mark, very interesting idea/point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 (edited) Being were talking about my car.......again. I'll chime in, the car makes good torque down bottom. About 130-134 ft lbs from 3k-5500. Mark is right with a roots style the boost is instant on throttle tip in. I could easily pulley this car to make more torque down bottom, but i seem to drive the car ok as it sits. As for sean, i didn't have tons of time on all the pte cars, just the sentras which historically don't do well at summit compared to VIR. So my times being inline with the winners at Summit i don't see being an issue. Unless you're just thinking i either cant drive my car well or work at a shop that doesn't know setup. As for Dave's comment on killing car's in higher classes. TT has a lot of drivers that vary in skill and want to go fast. Seans car is a near stock e30 with stock seats(am i right?) and runs TT. Dave runs a spec miata in TTE...so yes theres going to be quite a difference in times. See you guys next weekend. Edited October 4, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 That's a really interesting thought (about building an engine that way). Is it even doable? And not in a "on the ragged edge" kind of way, but in a reliable manner? I've heard this idea brought up before, and even asked my shop about it, and they were really skeptical. It absolutely is, and I have done it before back in my drag racing days when experimenting with a manual-style boost controller on a turbocharged 302 in my Mustang. It was able to shoot up to 13 psi quickly, but the boost would eventually drop to 9 psi and stay there. This was the exact opposite of what I wanted for drag racing, so I removed it; however, with more tweaking, it would work great for what we're discussing here (corner exit traction notwithstanding). And, this was with a manual boost controller built with hardware store parts nearly 10 years ago; any of the newer electronic controllers should be able to accurately do whatever you want with the boost. As for "in a reliable manner," do you mean "won't blow the engine up" or "will reliably and consistently maintain the maximum RWHP level?" As for the former, it will be fine as long as the ECU is tuned properly. However, as for the latter, the amount of consistency is directly proportional to the driver's honesty (GPS will become very helpful here as these units are made available to the regions). We have a couple of turbocharged cars in my region that several of us are quite skeptical about, as their lap times are insanely fast while other well-prepared, well-driven cars in their class cannot keep up. Maybe it's simply a case of much, much larger huevos on these particular drivers, or maybe there could be "something else to it" (elevated/undetectable boost levels, lack of torque limits/regulation, etc.). A boost limit of, say, 8 psi does not equate to the same RWHP number in 100*F weather as it does in 70*F weather. While this is true for naturally aspirated cars as well, the discrepancy is greater for forced induction cars; they slow down more in hot weather, and speed up more in cold weather. As for the supercharged TTE Miata that is crushing all comers, I'm guessing that the supercharger is a Roots or screw blower, and not a centrifugal blower; is this correct? Centrifugal blowers add little or no bottom end power or torque (I also had one on the aforementioned 302 Mustang, and I am lucky enough to be able to share a Rotrex-supercharged Miata in TTD from time to time), but the Roots and screw blowers make tons of low-end power and torque by nature. Mark I agree with you Mark. I am building my 500ci LS motor for 8.7/1 Hp just as soon as my piggy bank gets some relief. Boost is an amazing thing also - very easy to "tune" - not always easy to drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Being were talking about my car.......again. Take it as flattery You should think about doing Road Atl with NASA-SE Dec 4/5 - I'd be curious to see how quick that car is in cool weather at a well attended track with well established TT track records Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I agree with you Mark. I am building my 500ci LS motor for 8.7/1 Hp just as soon as my piggy bank gets some relief. Boost is an amazing thing also - very easy to "tune" - not always easy to drive. The current TTS record down here at Sebring (2:20.xx around the full 3.7 mile course; American Iron Mustangs are "only" going 2:26.xx) is held by a C5 Corvette with a stroker engine built to pull tree stumps from the ground but stay within the weight/RWHP limit. That record was set a couple of years ago (before I got involved with TT), and still stands today. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I'm really looking forward to the cool weather but as someone else mentioned it has a lot more effect on a boosted car. Probably going to have to pull a degree or two of timing out of the tune. Road Atlanta is high high on my list for tracks to go to, however i doubt i'd challenge any track records in a weekend of being there. All i know is video games road Atlanta...and well i crash a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 no time like the present to learn though. Hope to see you there maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Road Atlanta is high high on my list for tracks to go to It's completely badass there, but this is coming from a Florida driver with nothing but flat tracks. Since you're likely near VIR, you might be less impressed with RA than I was, although it's still a lot of fun. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Being were talking about my car.......again. I'll chime in, the car makes good torque down bottom. About 130-134 ft lbs from 3k-5500. Mark is right with a roots style the boost is instant on throttle tip in. I could easily pulley this car to make more torque down bottom, but i seem to drive the car ok as it sits. As for sean, i didn't have tons of time on all the pte cars, just the sentras which historically don't do well at summit compared to VIR. So my times being inline with the winners at Summit i don't see being an issue. Unless you're just thinking i either cant drive my car well or work at a shop that doesn't know setup. As for Dave's comment on killing car's in higher classes. TT has a lot of drivers that vary in skill and want to go fast. Seans car is a near stock e30 with stock seats(am i right?) and runs TT. Dave runs a spec miata in TTE...so yes theres going to be quite a difference in times. See you guys next weekend. Hey Vince, I'm not complaining. I know you built the car by the rules and have been very up front about it the whole time. I think this is an academic conversation , not a hunt to get you.. The 8 car is basically stock and is no way close to prepared as well as yours, or the others are for that matter. I can wheel it around OK, but it will never be at the pointy end of TTE. And surely you know how to drive...that is evident. Todd Reid is bringing the Probenstein out this weekend in PTE but knowing Todd, he will be on old rubber!! You may well have hit the perfect recipe for this class....light, good brakes, good suspension and some grunt out of the corners. See you this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 All i know is video games road Atlanta...and well i crash a lot It's got a higher average lap speed than VIR, and concrete everywhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Is todd going to be running hoosiers like we thought he would be this year? I look forward to seeing the car one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 All i know is video games road Atlanta...and well i crash a lot It's got a higher average lap speed than VIR, and concrete everywhere hahah good news is my car isnt high HP like the ones on the video games...so i wouldnt be completely sideways through start finish every lap haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I have always wondered how a well-prepared, late-model turbo diesel car would fare in classes that have weight/horsepower limits but ignore torque, since they are traditionally low on horsepower although their torque numbers are (relatively) through the roof. Audi has showed the world how it's done for the past several years, and I'd love to see something like this (but at a more sensible level) in TT. If money and garage space permitted, I'd be halfway there by now. Unfortunately, sports-oriented diesels on this continent are FWD and not RWD (I prefer RWD), unless somebody could drop a Veedub TDI engine into a gutted donor chassis like a Miata or a Porsche 924, rotate it north-south, and adapt the transmission or torque tube to it. Or, dunk the whole engine and transaxle into the back of a Porsche 914 and make hybrid half-shafts. These are over-simplified thoughts, though. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I think a better way to do it would be throw a torque-motor swap in a lower class - since we're already hp restricted it's a natural fit. See the RX7 in PTD sporting a GM V6... excellent idea. Shut up already. We don't need to stroke his ego and get him driving better just yet. Pappa needs a new pair of shoes before the year is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 All i know is video games road Atlanta...and well i crash a lot It's got a higher average lap speed than VIR, and concrete everywhere hahah good news is my car isnt high HP like the ones on the video games...so i wouldnt be completely sideways through start finish every lap haha. Vinny, if you have an Xbox 360 you can create a very accurate version of a Miata in Forza 2. I did this once to prepare for my first trip to Road Atlanta. The game lap times were within a second of the lap times I actually ran. I would say that everything about it was spot-on and really helped! Except for turn 3, that is, you've gotta brake much harder in real life there than in the game. Learned that one the hard way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Is todd going to be running hoosiers like we thought he would be this year? I look forward to seeing the car one way or another. I don't think so. I do know he got some RA-1s earlier this year from someone. A tree fell on the probe in the winter as well so he had to fix it a little.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 (edited) Road Atlanta is high high on my list for tracks to go to It's completely badass there, but this is coming from a Florida driver with nothing but flat tracks. Since you're likely near VIR, you might be less impressed with RA than I was, although it's still a lot of fun. Mark Nonsense. I drive VIR at least three times a year. I had the pleasure of running with the SE guys in June this year. RA is definitely more fun to drive. The paddock sucks. There is not enough electrical juice. There was no wi-fi. VIR has all those things and is a great, great track, but RA is my new favorite. Cars that can handle do not give up a ton to the cars with hp. But dayum, it was true to its name... HOT-lanta & humid as all get-out! :thud: Sure hope my finances allow me to join those guys again in December. Edited October 4, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Road Atlanta is high high on my list for tracks to go to, however i doubt i'd challenge any track records in a weekend of being there. All i know is video games road Atlanta...and well i crash a lot Don't discount Forza. I went to a buddy's house to run that track for 25 minutes. He had the the whole wheel/pedal setup. It's not the same, but I believe it helped some. I still missed the turn under the bridge my first lap and headed down the motorcycle portion. Prior to June's event, that Forza stint was my only exposure to RA. I've never even watched a race on TV held there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKBITN Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Skip you've got to make RA in Dec.Just think of all that extra hp!!! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Skip you've got to make RA in Dec.Just think of all that extra hp!!! Robert Robert, I'll be doing everything in my power to make it down there. Despite the heat, I had a blast with you all. Talk about tight competition! Wait a minute... you'll be making more power, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKBITN Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Wait a minute... you'll be making more power, too! But my car is fat and heavy your's is slim and trim.That make's up the diff. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Road Atlanta is high high on my list for tracks to go to It's completely badass there, but this is coming from a Florida driver with nothing but flat tracks. Since you're likely near VIR, you might be less impressed with RA than I was, although it's still a lot of fun. Mark Nonsense. I drive VIR at least three times a year. I had the pleasure of running with the SE guys in June this year. RA is definitely more fun to drive. The paddock sucks. There is not enough electrical juice. There was no wi-fi. VIR has track, but RA is my new favorite. Cars that can handle do not give up a ton to the cars with hp. But dayum, it was true to it's name... HOT-lanta & humid as all get-out! :thud: Sure hope my finances allow me to join those guys again in December. We want to see you in Dec! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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