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asifnyc

1974 AMC Javelin build

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asifnyc

started this build thread for my 1974 AMC Javelin that I'm building for American Iron. Hope to make the first 2011 race! I'll have many questions so I'm hoping you guys can help keep me pointed in the right direction. below is a pic of what I'm staring with. Here are some things I know:

 

1. I will be running an IFS from http://freakride.com/amc.pdf

 

2. I am planning to use this Wilwood front brake kit with the IFS: http://wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront.aspx?itemno=140-9801-D%20%20%20%20%20

 

3. I'm thinking of running these Enkei wheels. Do these seem like a good choice? Any other recommendations? They are 16.5lbs each: http://www.enkei.com/rpf1.html#

 

4. I will be running a 3-link Ford 9" in the rear but I haven't figured out what housing to use or where to get it from (suggestions?).

 

5. Plan to build a 401 AMC motor for this with the Edelbrock aluminum heads.

 

6. I *think* I'm going to run a TKO 500 trans.

 

looking for any and all feedback EXCEPT feedback about how it would be WAY smarter/cheaper to buy an already built Mustang/Camaro. I know that but I'm an AMC guy so I really have no choice

 

Oh, and I've heard that there may be others building AMCs for AI. If you're out there PLEASE post about your projects! Thanks.

 

74jav.jpg

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nape

Welcome to American Iron. It would be cool to see some vintage stuff running.

 

1. Make sure the aftermarket stuff is strong enough and race proven. Autocross and spirited street driving is not the same loading. Stuff that's fine in those two arenas is likely to break in racing if it's never been tested. Don't get them powdercoated, just spray them with rattle can paint, that way you can see cracks easier on inspection. It might not look as cool, but it'll look a lot better then the car in a wall. Stock parts may be heavy, but they're usually stronger and almost always designed with a lot greater safety margin in design.

 

2. Make sure you get solid rotors instead of drilled rotors for the brake kit. It's not if the drilled ones will crack, but when.

 

3. RPF1s are a strong wheel, but make sure you can design the setup so that you can use the same backspacing all the way around. That way you can rotate tires to help the budget.

 

4. 3-link Ford 9" setups are great in the class, but make sure you pay attention to the geometry and get it right. I used a circle track outfit in Iowa, but I had to do some additional things to get it to bolt up to modern wheels. Coleman Racing can probably get what you need, but be ready to chase leaky axles seals often.

 

5. I'd make sure the engine won't make too much torque for AI at 401 cubes. HP is easier to dial down, but torque can be a pain. Very few AI engines are over 358 cubes and even less are in competitive cars. Lots of HP/TQ means lots of weight. That can do OK on large tracks with lots of straights, but it's a pain on smaller ones.

 

6. If you're going to run a TKO 500, you might as well run a T-10 or AMCs version of it. The 500 doesn't have a good 5th gear (that I recall). The 600 would be better if you're stuck on a 5 speed, but you can do well with a 4 speed too if it's not a wide ratio box.

 

I'd go ahead and run the car in some HPDEs before you go blow the budget and find out the car isn't competitive. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but just looking at the wheelbase and where things ought to mount, it's going to need a ton of fab work to run competitively. Don't let it discourage you, because I heard some of the same concerns, but be aware that it's never as easy as bolting on some shiny stuff and going to the top of the heap.

 

Good luck and remember that this is about FUN!

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tacovini

Great questions and great responses by TJ!

Welcome...and as said before, we LOVE to see the vintage stuff come into American Iron with some cool projects.

Dip your foot in the pool here...test the waters...but develop a relationship with your regional series director and the guys in the class in your area.

They are going to be your best resources....the internet sometimes promotes an atmosphere to "pounce with intelligence", especially when pictures are posted.

 

All in all...it's all about the FUN, and we all have the same blood going thru our veins.

Speaking of which...is your profile pic your Tattoo???

If so, you've got some strong-ass AMC blood runnin' thru those veins!!! LOL

Good on ya!

 

-=- Todd

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obzezzed350

Sounds like a cool project! Good luck!

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ST#97
Welcome to American Iron. It would be cool to see some vintage stuff running.

 

1. Make sure the aftermarket stuff is strong enough and race proven. Autocross and spirited street driving is not the same loading. Stuff that's fine in those two arenas is likely to break in racing if it's never been tested. Don't get them powdercoated, just spray them with rattle can paint, that way you can see cracks easier on inspection. It might not look as cool, but it'll look a lot better then the car in a wall. Stock parts may be heavy, but they're usually stronger and almost always designed with a lot greater safety margin in design.

 

2. Make sure you get solid rotors instead of drilled rotors for the brake kit. It's not if the drilled ones will crack, but when.

 

3. RPF1s are a strong wheel, but make sure you can design the setup so that you can use the same backspacing all the way around. That way you can rotate tires to help the budget.

 

4. 3-link Ford 9" setups are great in the class, but make sure you pay attention to the geometry and get it right. I used a circle track outfit in Iowa, but I had to do some additional things to get it to bolt up to modern wheels. Coleman Racing can probably get what you need, but be ready to chase leaky axles seals often.

 

5. I'd make sure the engine won't make too much torque for AI at 401 cubes. HP is easier to dial down, but torque can be a pain. Very few AI engines are over 358 cubes and even less are in competitive cars. Lots of HP/TQ means lots of weight. That can do OK on large tracks with lots of straights, but it's a pain on smaller ones.

 

6. If you're going to run a TKO 500, you might as well run a T-10 or AMCs version of it. The 500 doesn't have a good 5th gear (that I recall). The 600 would be better if you're stuck on a 5 speed, but you can do well with a 4 speed too if it's not a wide ratio box.

 

I'd go ahead and run the car in some HPDEs before you go blow the budget and find out the car isn't competitive. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but just looking at the wheelbase and where things ought to mount, it's going to need a ton of fab work to run competitively. Don't let it discourage you, because I heard some of the same concerns, but be aware that it's never as easy as bolting on some shiny stuff and going to the top of the heap.

 

Good luck and remember that this is about FUN!

 

TJ for President!

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asifnyc

hey TJ (and everybody), thanks for the reply.

 

1. the guy who builds the IFS system runs a tube frame comet on track at speeds above 150mph. I think (hope!) it's been design to be strong enough.

 

2. thanks for that tip. I'll just get the slotted rotors then.

 

3. good call. I was planning to get same backspace all around.

 

4. there are so many places that make 9" rear ends I just don't know where to go. I haven't really found a place that claims they specialize in road racing. mostly it's street, dirt racing or drag... There's Strange, Moser, Chris Alston, found a circle track outfit named Schreiner, Howe, the list goes on...

 

5. this is the comment that really piqued my interest. AMC used the same block (size/weight) for their 304, 360 and 401 I believe. A 360 would be a lot easier to find so if it's true that a 401 is going to be harder to keep the torque number where I need then I can build a 360. the 401 is just sexier... anybody else agree that the 401 will make too much torque???

 

6. I'm not stuck on a 5 speed. I was thinking TKO because I have one in my street javelin and like it, and I feel like the internal shifter vs. side rail shift is an advantage in terms of feel/speed of shifts. but the main reason I didn't think I could use a T10 is that the research I did showed the stock T10s can handle 300 tq and the richmond super T10 can handle 375 tq. isn't 375 tq right about what I should be putting to the wheels? so the engine will make more than that... is a T10 strong enough? if it is and no one thinks the side rail shifting is a liability then I'll definitely consider a 4 speed. I had a T10 in my street javelin and between the mechanical clutch z-bar/bell crank and the hurst shifter and side rail rod shifting the whole thing felt like a rube goldberg machine my hydraulic clutch/slave cylinder and TKO trans just feel great in my street car so that's why I was considering replicating that setup...

 

I've done 9 track days this year, 6 in my street Javelin and spent this past weekend with NASA in HPDE 3 at Thunderhill. Are you saying run the race Javelin in HPDE? I'll have to build it first at which time if it's uncompetitive I'll have already spent the money I think the biggest disadvantage for the Javelin will be ME (my driving ability). That an the fact that I don't intend to run a giant wing on the back... I have no fantasies about running at the front. I'm going to build it and see what happens.

 

If anyone's interested in seeing the street Javelin on track there are lot's of track videos on my blog: http://asifnyc.com The latest videos have some GPS telemetry overlaid so you can see how slow I'm going

 

Keep the advice coming!

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asifnyc

oh and Todd, yes my avatar pic is my tattoo. I've had it over 15 years now and have never regretted it

 

here's a pic of my street Javelin from Thunderhill this past weekend...

IMG_1599.jpg

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nape

1. That's good. It's always nice to have the parts proven before you have to run them.

 

2. Slotted should be fine too. I always just run blank ones because they're cheaper and haven't ever had issues for me.

 

4. Whoever makes your 9", you either want a full floater (bolt on hubs) or you want Big Bearing/Torino 9" ends on it. Don't let anyone sell you a setup with straight, roller bearings. With what we do, you need tapered roller bearings.

 

5. Engine choice will really be dictated by race weight of the car. Since you've already got a street Jav, you can probably estimate what the race car will weight. I used Desktop Dyno to try out engine combinations when I was trying to figure out what to build. I basically figured out that I couldn't run a SBC 350 unless I was heavier then 3150 post race due to the torque number, so I built a SBC 305 and it's within 100lbs on HP and a little more on TQ, but I wanted to run as light as I can instead of ballasting up.

 

6. I've never shifted a Tremec, but my T-10 shifts way better then my T5s ever did. It's an old circle track trans and the shifter uses AL tube and heim joints to get rid of the sloppy old linkages. I still use a hyd. TO bearing, but it's NASCAR throw away parts from ebay. As far as a T-10 handling the power, I wouldn't worry so much about the older ones. I have heard that Richmond QC and metallurgy has went to shit (most parts cast/machined in China) and the new T-10s are absolute junk.

 

No worries if you're already running HPDEs in a similar car. Some people have pipe dreams that never materialize due to biting off more then they can chew (wanting a race car yet never having any track time), but it looks like you've got the right progression going.

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kbrew8991

you could run your street Javelin in Time Trials to get an idea of what kind of times it turns - could use that to project what the race car would turn. Plus its a good way to polish your driving and ease into racing

 

Have fun!

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pederb

Welcome aboard

 

Cheers

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asifnyc

hey stick947, thanks for present. I've had that on VHS since about 1993! watched it a million times. the yellow/black roy woods racing javelins are why my car looks like it does

 

Here's another pic from last weekend at thunderhill and a video of the best lap I was able to muster... definitely need some work.

 

paddock_shot.jpg

Edited by Guest

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snakebit

Shoot Jim Fay an email. His website is www.fays2.net. ...he might be able to help out with that 9" 3 link setup

John

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asifnyc

I took this past Friday off work and got some more done on the car. I removed the rear glass, the head light buckets, the wiper arms and the fenders/hood. I then hung the doors I'm going to use. They are completely gutted and will have the inner shell cut out to make room for nascar bars. I'm going to do this on both sides. I want to have the ability to mount a passenger seat so I can get some in-car driving coaching. anyone have any seat recommendations?

 

also, wondering if I should keep the stock door latch mechanism or keep the doors closed some other way... suggestions?

 

here's some more parts I'm planning to use. speak up if you see anything that doesn't make sense. thanks!

 

- Fuelsafe 22 gal. enduro cell http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/ed122a.html

- Tilton Engineering 72-605 pedals http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-72-605/

- fire suspression system http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SAF-LT5AAB/

- harness Simpson Racing 29058SP http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SIM-29058SP/

 

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on at least one of the Enkei wheels for mockup. anyone have any other wheel suggestions before I commit? need 5 x 4 1/2" bolt pattern.

 

aijav_aug27.jpg

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Cobra4B

I like Ultrashield seats. I'm 6'4" 230 so nothing from Sparco/Cobra etc. etc. fits me. I was looking at a Sparco Evo 2 Plus which was supposedly for tall drivers, but it was narrower in the hips and my back still covered the harness openings. Furthermore, the best discounted price I could find new was over $700 + shipping. I got a custom fitted Ultrashiled for $540 to my door. It's basically $100 more for a custom seat.... money well spent IMO.

 

DSCF4269.jpg

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asifnyc

hey thanks for the tip! I'm 6'5" but skinny (165lbs)... maybe I'll go custom ultrashield... so is that the "road race VS" model you have?

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Cobra4B
hey thanks for the tip! I'm 6'5" but skinny (165lbs)... maybe I'll go custom ultrashield... so is that the "road race VS" model you have?

It's the Pro Roadrace Seat. It's a 16" seat 10 degree layback, but customized to my measurements. They ended up making the back of the seat 2" taller, the torso bolsters taller, and the shoulder wings wider as I have broad shoulders.

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Sidney
here's some more parts I'm planning to use. speak up if you see anything that doesn't make sense. thanks!

 

- Fuelsafe 22 gal. enduro cell http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/ed122a.html

- Tilton Engineering 72-605 pedals http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-72-605/

- fire suspression system http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SAF-LT5AAB/

- harness Simpson Racing 29058SP http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SIM-29058SP/

 

 

Think about expiration dates before buying any safety equipment. If this car isn't going to be on the track till 2011...there is no reason to lose a year on the belts and fuel cell bladder.

 

Sidney

CMC #64

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asifnyc

Hey Sidney,

 

good call on expiration dates on safety gear. I'll keep that in mind...

 

trying to finalize wheel choice. Like the Enkei's but they are pricey. here's what I'm trying to decide between:

 

1. Enkei RPF1 17x9.5 - $266 ea. and 16.5lbs http://www.enkei.com/rpf1.html

 

2. Konig Villain 17x9 - $180 ea. and 21lbs http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=577

 

3. Mustang FR500 17x9 - $130 ea. and 26lbs http://www.americanmuscle.com/anthracite-fr500-wheel-17x9.html?utm_content=anthracite-fr500-wheel-17x9&utm_campaign=FROOG&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping

 

4. MB Competition 17x9 - $150 ea. and 22lbs http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/wheels/mb_wheels/product/submitProductSize.do?pc=59992&typ=Car/Minivan&tmn=Competition

 

5. MB Weapon 17x9 - $140 ea. 22lbs http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/wheels/mb_wheels/product/submitProductSize.do?pc=53636&typ=Car/Minivan&tmn=Weapon

 

what does everyone think how much should I stress about wheel weight? seems like the Konig Villain is the best compromise of $ / weight...

Edited by Guest

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nape
what does everyone think how much should I stress about wheel weight? seems like the Konig Villain is the best compromise of $ / weight...

 

I'd wait and try to find a set of used ones. There is stuff to be said for buying new, but I just wait around and find Corvette guys selling curbed wheels for my Firebird. Chances are they're going to get dinged/sandblasted/etc in a race anyway, so just wait for a street car guy to sell them. Some import cars use that bolt pattern too. Nissan 350Z, Supra, etc. Check out their message boards/for sale boards too.

 

I'm too cheap to pay retail.

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asifnyc

I hear ya TJ but what OEM wheel with the ford/amc bolt pattern (5x4.5) comes in 17x9? the GM guys have the z06 wheels but the late model mustang rims are all 17x8 right? and no stock 350z or supra wheels are going to be 9" wide are they? I guess you can find the cobra r rims in 17x9 used but a lot of the used ones are chrome and I'm guessing the chrome rims are heavier knock-offs. what do you think?

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nape

Some stock Mustang wheels are 17x9. '03-'04 Cobra fronts, 10th anniversary Cobra, etc. I don't know the weights though.

 

I've never tried a back to back test with heavy wheels, so I can't tell you how much difference it makes seat-of-the-pants. However, it will show up on the dyno.

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asifnyc

brake question...

 

for the fronts I'm going to run 13" rotors... should I run the same size rotors in the rear or is that overkill? if I don't need 13" out back what can I run? 12"? 11"?

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Cobra4B

Light wheels make a huge SOTP difference... I'm running 17x9.5 OEM Z06 wheels with a 275/40/17 all around and I have my car lightened to just over 2800 lbs... it's a rocket and had no problems accelerating down VIR's straights with a 440 rwhp cam'd C6.

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nape
brake question...

 

for the fronts I'm going to run 13" rotors... should I run the same size rotors in the rear or is that overkill? if I don't need 13" out back what can I run? 12"? 11"?

 

I wouldn't do that unless you get a really large percentage of rear weight. You should be fine with ~12" rotor. I've run 11.75" and 12.19" rotors in the rear and there isn't much difference except dialing out a little more line pressure for the larger diameter.

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