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2011 Rules Silly Season - Closed


tacovini

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TO: ALL AMERICAN IRON RACERS

 

It’s that time again… In order to get the new 2011 AI Ruleset out in a timely manner (around Halloween), we need to have all of your change requests/comments/suggestions by 10/26.

 

As with last year...

 

We need to avoid numerous, drastic ruleset changes in any given year, however, over the course of the next 3 years need to work toward cost containment, car count…and get back to basics to achieve our end goal.

 

If you have a rule change request (RCR) for the AI Leadership Team’s consideration, please submit it to me ([email protected]) with a cc: to your regional AI series director. (If you don’t know who your regional AI series director is, look in the back of the current American Iron ruleset.)

 

RULE CHANGE REQUESTS (RCR) MUST BE SUBMITTED IN THE FOLLOWING FORMAT TO BE CONSIDERED:

 

--- 1) Name / Region / Car # / Contact Info (email or phone, etc)

--- 2) Rule reference # (ex.- Rule 3.2 – Title, Part, section…)

--- 3) Recommended Revised Wording

--- 4) Reasoning for change MUST include at least 1 of the following:

---------->a) Willl decrease series cost because…

---------->b) Will increase series growth because…

---------->c) Will improve competition because…

---------->d) Will provide more clarity because...

 

HINT – Requests which score points in all categories will have better chances of being accepted than those which score points in 1 category (or worse yet, go against the reasonings above.)

 

I’ll collect all change request submissions, review them with the AI Leadership Team and we’ll capture which ones are accepted, rejected & implemented and why. This will provide us with a record/reasoning so that we don’t have to re-work the same request year after year, if it isn’t warranted.

 

So…If you genuinely feel as though a series rule change should be considered in the interest of the series, work with your regional series directors. They will represent you in October at the decision table. This approach is far more effective than a 9 page internet forum rant attempting to rally the masses to take up their swords & torches and march into town.

 

I’m available after workhours & weekends if folks want to discuss something over the phone or email, however, please work closely with your regional AI director as much as possible.

 

Let the fun begin!!!

 

-=- Todd

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jrsmotorsports

Here we go. This rule would be for aix only, to allow the use of bolt in subframe changes to aftermarket choices. There are almost a dozen manufactures that make subframes, that bolt into 67-69 camaros and 70-81 camaros. They of course add rack and pinion steering, geometry changes, pick up point changes, they all keep the shock in stock location and under aix rules as they read now should would be accepted, so I want uniform acceptance.

For ai/aix tech guys, it would be easy to distinguish if the subframe bolts in, and if it uses subframe connectors rather then a full custom chassis. These camaros were made like this to have the subframes bolt in, not till 1982 did gm make the camaro a complete unibody construction.

Again, this would be for aix only, which allows pick up point changes as long as shock is in stock location. These aftermarket subframes are no different then the bolt in k member mustang kits which make them into a Sla suspension, it just so happens the front frame bolts in, rather then just engine cross member,uca mounts.

For aix cars, by the time you modify a stock subframe, fix rot holes etc, you could buy an aftermarket offering.

 

1. Jake Parrott,northeast #29 aix, [email protected]

2.7.3.2, 7.12.3 as i mention, they should be allowed as the rules read now, but the director says no. Again this is for AIX

3. Not sure on wording because it doesn't say there not allowed.

4. This change could increase growth, and increase competition.

 

btw- i manufacture subframes for 67-69 camaros,68-74 novas,70-81 camaros/trans am/firebirds, earl 62-67 novas, and are moving on to doing some mustang and mopar stuff. It is a track inspired design, using c6 corvette control arms and knuckles, however we used win geo and solid works to design our own geometry, 7 degrees of caster built in, just under a degree of neg camber gain per inch, 107 instant center,rc under an inch, .776 motion ratio, custom valved bilstein coil overs modified mII rack, fabricated drop steering arms, with proper ackerman,bump steer (.010 bump out) in 4 inches of travel.

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Here we go. This rule would be for aix only, to allow the use of bolt in subframe changes to aftermarket choices. There are almost a dozen manufactures that make subframes, that bolt into 67-69 camaros and 70-81 camaro.
Todd, I have a Martz Chassis subframe in my '69 street car if you want to see one in person.
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No changes as all seems to work damn well!!

 

Two Suggestions is all from me:

1:- GPS connectors in everyones car so monitoring for power to weight becomes easier. Also be consistent with dyno, ride height, etc.. procedures with other nasa classes.

 

2: Massive I know you won't want to hear but I hope someone is thinking about it suggestion:

OK we run a tire made where again?? and how small is the bucks we get from it?? Should we not be looking or talking to hoosier or someone else. Hoosier you win one wknd and have a set of tires...with toyo you have to win 4 weekends to get a set basically.

At least pressure them to do more as the payback is damn small.

 

That's it.

Personally I like that not much changes except acceptance type rules for newer cars so don't fix what ain't broke.

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TurboShortBus
2: Massive I know you won't want to hear but I hope someone is thinking about it suggestion:

OK we run a tire made where again?? and how small is the bucks we get from it?? Should we not be looking or talking to hoosier or someone else. Hoosier you win one wknd and have a set of tires...with toyo you have to win 4 weekends to get a set basically.

At least pressure them to do more as the payback is damn small.

This is just speculation, but I'm guessing that Toyo writes a pretty big check to NASA every year to maintain their status as the spec tire supplier for AI, CMC, SM, SE30, etc. It would likely take a check equal to or greater than Toyo's in order to get another company to be a spec supplier. But hey, good for them (and us) if they see NASA as worthy of their continued sponsorship and support.

 

With that being said, I run Hoosiers on my TT car, since their contingency program is so generous (and the other drivers run Hoosiers, so I would be a sitting duck with anything else); it's like giving free crack to a crackhead. I used RA1s all the way through HPDE and my first season and a half in TT, though. Note that, with the Hoosiers, buying that first set of tires costs significantly more than a set of RA1s, and the tire life is greatly decreased compared to RA1s. If you can continue to manage winning, then the tires are free after you buy the first set; if not, then you will go broke buying more tires while trying to catch the winners, which could be discouraging to some people on a budget.

 

Hijack off, back to the thread...

 

Mark

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robbodleimages

1. I hate Toyo tires.

2. Free tires for a mid pack racer like me is a waste of conversation.

3. BFG's R1 lasts nearly as long as the Toyo fast speed wise. Better than the Hoosier by far. The new Goodyear DOT should be good too. I can live with the toyo except for the price of 18" tires.

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1. I hate Toyo tires.

2. Free tires for a mid pack racer like me is a waste of conversation.

3. BFG's R1 lasts nearly as long as the Toyo fast speed wise. Better than the Hoosier by far. The new Goodyear DOT should be good too. I can live with the toyo except for the price of 18" tires.

 

 

The price is way out of line for 18" tires

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robbodleimages

I have to say that with an S197 Mustang that needs 18's and the lenth of time that the BFG runs competitive lap times, its cheaper to run St2 on BFG's than AI on the spec Toyo. It shouldnt be that way.

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Stay with Toy Ra1s please. Anything else will just kill the regular racers budget. These are the only tires I know that will keep similar lap times with many heat cycles compared to new. Hoosiers, bfgs, etc are all junk after a weekend.

 

hoosiers - $1000 set min, good for one weekend if you want to be competitive, times 7 weekend events is $7000 year to have good rubber.

 

toyo ra1 - $1000 set, good for multiple weekends, will run similar lap times with many heat cycles as new, can possibly run all season on one set, but lets say you buy two sets thats still only $2000 year.

 

hoosier $7000 yr

toyo $2000 yr

 

no brainer, toyo.

 

granted contingency plays a part but for most people it is not a large part. so please dont ruin a good thing and stick with toyos.

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mcmmotorsports

Someday, when I grow up, I would love to come run AI, but if AI switches to Hoosier that dream will never come to fruition.

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robbodleimages
Stay with Toy Ra1s please. Anything else will just kill the regular racers budget. These are the only tires I know that will keep similar lap times with many heat cycles compared to new. Hoosiers, bfgs, etc are all junk after a weekend.

 

hoosiers - $1000 set min, good for one weekend if you want to be competitive, times 7 weekend events is $7000 year to have good rubber.

 

toyo ra1 - $1000 set, good for multiple weekends, will run similar lap times with many heat cycles as new, can possibly run all season on one set, but lets say you buy two sets thats still only $2000 year.

 

hoosier $7000 yr

toyo $2000 yr

 

no brainer, toyo.

 

granted contingency plays a part but for most people it is not a large part. so please dont ruin a good thing and stick with toyos.

 

I think the point I and others have been making is that the BFG holds its lap times as well as the toyo.

The only way you are getting longer life out of an RA1 is to run it at full or near full tread at the beginning which is not competitive with guys running a closely shaved tire.

 

Regular racer? If by that you mean on a budget, I am a small budget racer. The Toyo is $50 a tire more expensive than a BFG at 18" than at 17".

 

Not for next year as there is a contract, but in the future a change should be considered. Other mfc are building longer life into their tires with the new BFG, a new BFG design coming and a new Goodyear DOT on the market. Yes, the hoosier has limited heat cycles, but the BFG is nothing like the Hoosier.

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Tires are a big part of any racers budget. being 25 and just buying a house, they are a huge part of mine. If we switch to a tire that is more expensive, or doesn't last as long, I'm out. No question about it. If we were to make a switch in tires it should be set a season in advance so people can plan for it, but I agree with Al (blown5.0) and keep the ra1's.

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GEORGEWINKLER

I have been running BFG tires for 3 years in the Mustang Challenge,and Toyo's this year in AI.It has been my experience that the BFG tire is a better tire all the way around and overall less expensive to run than toyo.

The traction stays the same untill the cord shows(if you can wear it out),You don't have to grind rubber off you just payed for and wait for the tire to come around after a few sessions!

I would like to see some tire options available for AI?

I believe that if BFG would be a option, racers would find it to be more overall cost effective and a SAFER.

 

George Winkler

American Iron #14

Mustang Challenge #12

World Challenge #27

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robbodleimages

" If we switch to a tire that is more expensive, or doesn't last as long, I'm out."

 

and...if the tire is not more expensive and does last as long? i think that is the point.

 

if i shave my RA1's so that they are competitive the first weekend, they last no longer than than the good laps in my BFG's. the difference is that when the ra1's are done, they are corded. the bfg's are just slower and can still be used.

 

for me, the toyo route is more expensive than the bfg route. today i am in the minority. in coming years those on 18's will become an increasing percentage of the ai grid and we will be at the cross roads. 275/35-18 is $140 a tire more expensive than the 275-40-17. That adds up to $560 per set of 4.

 

That is a serious penalty. The BFG is $50 less expensive than the toyo at 18".

 

Its easy for me. I can race ST2. I'd rather not do that. George like me has run both. I can back up what he says.

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sundialracing
" If we switch to a tire that is more expensive, or doesn't last as long, I'm out."

 

and...if the tire is not more expensive and does last as long? i think that is the point.

 

if i shave my RA1's so that they are competitive the first weekend, they last no longer than than the good laps in my BFG's. the difference is that when the ra1's are done, they are corded. the bfg's are just slower and can still be used.

 

for me, the toyo route is more expensive than the bfg route. today i am in the minority. in coming years those on 18's will become an increasing percentage of the ai grid and we will be at the cross roads. 275/35-18 is $140 a tire more expensive than the 275-40-17. That adds up to $560 per set of 4.

 

That is a serious penalty. The BFG is $50 less expensive than the toyo at 18".

 

Its easy for me. I can race ST2. I'd rather not do that. George like me has run both. I can back up what he says.

 

Interesting that any of us that has run both Toyo and BFG thinks that BFG is a better more cost effective way to go...

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Well I think toyo and nasa have a multi year deal so we'll be on RA1s for a few years but this is a good discussion, maybe better in a seperate thread since this will not be a part of the 2011 rules.

 

Personally I dont care the brand tire so long as we are all on the same ones, the cost is affordable and they last a season (if your really on a budget as I am). And the Ra1s have well proven this so why wreck a good thing, as the spec tire and pwr/wght is the main key to door to door racing in AI.

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robbodleimages
Personally I dont care the brand tire so long as we are all on the same ones, the cost is affordable and they last a season (if your really on a budget as I am). And the Ra1s have well proven this so why wreck a good thing, as the spec tire and pwr/wght is the main key to door to door racing in AI.

 

Who is running for a championship on one set of tires all season?

affordable. They are $335 a tire for me. Not so affordable.

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TurboShortBus
Who is running for a championship on one set of tires all season?
My brother won the 2009 FFR national championship on a set of RA1s that he ran in the 2008 national championships, as well as several regional events for 2009. Granted, this was with a 255 mm RA1 on a 2400 lb FFR car, not a 275 mm RA1 on a 3000 lb AI car. YMMV, but something like this is possible, depending on the level of competition in your region and your driving style.

 

affordable. They are $335 a tire for me. Not so affordable.
Are 18" wheels mandatory, or did you choose them?

 

Mark

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robbodleimages

1. i'd like to know how many guys at the nationals that held any desire for a podium were running on tires with a full season on them.

 

2. I, George Winkler and Brett Mars who have posted in this thread have S197 Mustangs. 18's are the standard. All three of us have the standard ford racing brembo brake kits. the only 17's i am aware of that clear those brakes r the Cobra R R58 and they dont fit the S197 chassis. The only racing wheels made for the S197 are 18's. The only guy that I know that runs 17's on an S197 is Robin Burnett who has custom made wheels.

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Personally I dont care the brand tire so long as we are all on the same ones, the cost is affordable and they last a season (if your really on a budget as I am). And the Ra1s have well proven this so why wreck a good thing, as the spec tire and pwr/wght is the main key to door to door racing in AI.

 

Who is running for a championship on one set of tires all season?

affordable. They are $335 a tire for me. Not so affordable.

 

I won the MW Championship last year on pair of 275/35/18 RA1s that I bought from a guy in MI who had them in his basement for 3 years after he bought them from LG Racing who used them as rain tires in World Challenge. Tires had '05 date codes and 5-6/32nds left when I got them. I ran them in 6 events* on the front and had to get rid of them when I flat spotted them to the cords on a start. Total cost = $150 shipped.

 

Just picked up a pair of 275/40/17s with 4 grooves on them for $50. '05 Date codes, last run in '06. Can't wait to use them, they're right in the sweet spot.

 

When I get NEW tires (AKA when I win enough Toyo Bucks), I tell them to shave to 5/32nds and leave extra rubber on the edges so they last longer.

 

*Qualify and Race on "good" tires. Practice on whatever old stones are mounted.

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robbodleimages

TJ

 

Congrates on your championship. I saw you won two races as the only car in class and a 3rd when the only other car was dq'd. I saw a 4th win with only two cars in class. This is why I asked how many nationals entries ran their race on very old tires.

 

Edit: After looking at your results on my laps its also obvious that you and your car are seconds ahead of any you are racing against. I saw one race where Audrey was inside a second on you. Otherwise from what I saw, you have whatever AI field shows up totally covered. It makes your tires much less of an issue. You are not worried about someone with a little tire advantage beating you.

 

I will say that I am impressed

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sundialracing

how about 10" wide wheels?? You can buy used FR500C ones pretty reasonable and the new BossR wheels are a steal!!

 

How much faster are 10's than 9.5's?? I know I'm a hack, but I don't see any faster lap times when I tried 10's.

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