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2011 Rules Silly Season - Closed


tacovini

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TurboShortBus
Modular Ford may also be this way.

My bone stock 4.6L 2V made 235 rwhp and 272 rwtq. These aren't exactly AI-compatible numbers, but it still has more torque than hp.

 

Mark

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robbodleimages
Modular Ford may also be this way.

My bone stock 4.6L 2V made 235 rwhp and 272 rwtq. These aren't exactly AI-compatible numbers, but it still has more torque than hp.

 

Mark

 

true of that motor perhaps. the 4.6L 4v makes more hp than tq. the cammer makes more hp than tq. the new boss 302 motor is 440hp/380tq. modular fords make their hp at between 6 and 7k rpm's. this is why they are down on torque. the boss 302 intake will create and flat tq band but the number is still low compared to the hp.

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my ls1 makes 345 hp and 358 tq with the ls2 cam and headers with a y pipe. Worked perfect. It is now 3 seasons old and a little lower on both, but still more tq than hp

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robbodleimages

i suppose i could see allowing a driver to choose which way he wants to choose a motor, more hp or more tq.

 

most of the tracks that i run, the hp is more valuable than the torque. there are regions where the track selection is the opposite.

 

i dont know....i am fine with it like it is.

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Ok a few thoughts after a few beers>>>>always dangerous.

 

Number of races run past season to input factor needs to be weighed.

 

AI and dash. Yes asking for a "dash" to be added is dumb in my mind. There is only a few of these guys so let them be is my thought. Just grandfather as in new cars built beyond x date must have...

give it a few years and everyone will have a dash.

 

Seperately, don't screw with power to weight.

This is from a guy who always has 20rwtrw under limit at least so changing would help me but be consistent and fair. Also fbodies (yes I raced them for years and am a fan) have a leg up...but don't they need it??

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bluebandit48

im game for a little extra hp..

 

 

im all for dashes too.. i dont want to see your wires all hangin out there like that!! Cover up!!!

 

sorry.. toyos suck.. 2 seconds a lap faster on BFGs and they last just as long.. oh dont forget to mention guys.. the mustang challange BGFs that we are comparing our toyos to are only a 245!! whats that? yes a 245.. smaller than CMC.. yet they are faster!!

 

after extensive tire testing..

Hoosier R6.. slower than BFG, faster than toyo

Hoosier A6.. Fast.. Wears out kinda quick on heavy cars

BFG R1s.. Good Grip, Fast, Can run more than 2 races on. not bad pricing

Toyo RA1s.. had vibration from shaving.. few burnouts solved problem.. lasted a while.. kinda pricey for our 18s..

Pirelli Grandams tire.. Fast as hell.. sticky as hell.. still recovering from price tag shock..

 

BFGs seemed to work the best even though they had a width disadvantage.

 

my two pennies..

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Someone please explain to me how making everyone one in the series, buying two, three(?) sets (don't forget your rains) of a new tire is cheaper? I think that we should all think way, way, way back to --- LAST YEAR. Anyone remember the 888? The savior for all? Did anyone spend less that year? I think not. How is the BFG in rain? Not a lot of history there that I know of. Those of you in Arizona or Cali were it doesn't rain may not care; but those of us in the Midwest deal with a lot of events in wet weather.

 

TOYO is not the fastest tire, but it is stable for the series. The series needs stability. There are a lot of cars out there that could just skip events if they need to buy tires for the next event. A lot of people are tight on money with the economy, the race budget is the first to suffer. Lets think big picture, keep our eye on good, fair, competition and not make it worse.

 

All statements said as a competitor, not as a director (yet).

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Leave the power to weight alone.

 

My car made 298/304 (2920-2940lbs actual post race) at the beginning of the season and has run within a couple tenths or reset the track record at every track it's been to this year. If you're SECONDS off the leaders or the track record, horsepower and torque are not what you're missing.

 

im all for dashes too.. i dont want to see your wires all hangin out there like that!! Cover up!!!

 

Dash doesn't make any difference. This is amateur racing. If I have to put a dash in the car, I'm mounting all the wiring ON the dash so it's easy to work on. If I wanted something pretty, I'd buy a 'vette, wax it, and cruise on Sundays. It only has to pass 50/50 on the track, but the rules want us to have it show car pretty on the inside? I hope no one is offended by my cracked hood, torn bumper covers, aluminum rivet patches, 1/2" panel gaps, body panels that have been hammered out, rattle can touch up jobs on whole body panels, or the 20' of duct tape we use each race.

 

This may be NASA Pro Racing, but I don't care how fast you drive, Ganassi, Andretti, Roush, or Hendrick are NOT going to call you on Monday to give you a job offer.

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robbodleimages

"Number of races run past season to input factor needs to be weighed."

 

I am not sure what you mean by this.

 

BFG 245 is probably the same width as the Toyo 275 which is very narrow.

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robbodleimages
Someone please explain to me how making everyone one in the series, buying two, three(?) sets (don't forget your rains) of a new tire is cheaper? I think that we should all think way, way, way back to --- LAST YEAR. Anyone remember the 888? The savior for all? Did anyone spend less that year? I think not. How is the BFG in rain? Not a lot of history there that I know of. Those of you in Arizona or Cali were it doesn't rain may not care; but those of us in the Midwest deal with a lot of events in wet weather.

 

TOYO is not the fastest tire, but it is stable for the series. The series needs stability. There are a lot of cars out there that could just skip events if they need to buy tires for the next event. A lot of people are tight on money with the economy, the race budget is the first to suffer. Lets think big picture, keep our eye on good, fair, competition and not make it worse.

 

All statements said as a competitor, not as a director (yet).

 

Just from a personal perspective, I would recommend a move away from the Toyo in the future unless they are willing to provide and 18 at a competitive price or at least at a competitive price for nasa racers. I realize that its not something that will happen next season, but as more cars run 18's this will become an issue.

 

i see your points. they make perfect sense. in my case, i am invested in 3 full sets of 18" wheels and a full compliment of 14" brakes. this is how my car was equipped. this set up is AI approved. I am more than willing to play more money for the 18" tire. Hoosier, BFG, Kumho and so on the average increase in price is about $25 from 17 to 18. The Toyo quoting SASCO Tire is 247 for the 17 and 380 for the 18. That has the Toyo about $25 cheaper than the BFG at 17 and more than $100 more expensive for the 18. Thats a pure penalty.

 

Its a concern. I can run ST2 with my current package without changing anything. Right now that is probably the fair thing for me to do. Change myself rather than force everyone else to change. But time for 18s being the median size is coming.

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roadracerwhite
Someone please explain to me how making everyone one in the series, buying two, three(?) sets (don't forget your rains) of a new tire is cheaper? I think that we should all think way, way, way back to --- LAST YEAR. Anyone remember the 888? The savior for all? Did anyone spend less that year? I think not. How is the BFG in rain? Not a lot of history there that I know of. Those of you in Arizona or Cali were it doesn't rain may not care; but those of us in the Midwest deal with a lot of events in wet weather.

 

TOYO is not the fastest tire, but it is stable for the series. The series needs stability. There are a lot of cars out there that could just skip events if they need to buy tires for the next event. A lot of people are tight on money with the economy, the race budget is the first to suffer. Lets think big picture, keep our eye on good, fair, competition and not make it worse.

 

All statements said as a competitor, not as a director (yet).

 

Well said!

 

"Number of races run past season to input factor needs to be weighed."

 

I am not sure what you mean by this.

 

BFG 245 is probably the same width as the Toyo 275 which is very narrow.

 

I think what he means is one race, one vote; In other words if you have not run all year, you get no influence in the rules and the more races you have run the more your vote would count. For example, since i run in CMC2, I have no business deciding AI rules.

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robbodleimages

ah, i see. as chris knows me that was directed at me. nice. since the nasa doc held my license til may and i only ran in aix over the tire issue i should shut up. point taken.

 

i talk about this issue because it weighs on whether i race AI or not. i would think that would be of value particularly since i am not new to AI. i wont take part in this discussion further.

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ah, i see. as chris knows me that was directed at me. nice. since the nasa doc held my license til may and i only ran in aix over the tire issue i should shut up. point taken.

 

Doesn't your car have the FR500C transmission in it anyway? I thought I remembered you saying you picked up a few cheap last year. Technically, that trans has a ~$8000 retail price, which makes it illegal for AI ($4500) or AIX ($6500). I doubt most AIX competitors would complain, but it's a black and white rule.

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robbodleimages
ah, i see. as chris knows me that was directed at me. nice. since the nasa doc held my license til may and i only ran in aix over the tire issue i should shut up. point taken.

 

Doesn't your car have the FR500C transmission in it anyway? I thought I remembered you saying you picked up a few cheap last year. Technically, that trans has a ~$8000 retail price, which makes it illegal for AI ($4500) or AIX ($6500). I doubt most AIX competitors would complain, but it's a black and white rule.

 

yup. i have two. they are T56's. the current retail price for one is around $5k. see frpp. so, i imagine you can buy one retail for $4500. you can upgrade your t56 with the same parts. is it legal to build a t56r from a 6060 but not legal to buy one? in fact, my spare T56R has been changed into a 56R/6060 hybrid. is that legal or illegal?

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if you dont race here, then you....forget it.

its always interesting to see what's going on in other NASA series - sometimes you can pick up on some great ideas that will help your own. Sometimes you see pitfalls to avoid.

 

Back to lurking!

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roadracerwhite

 

I think what he means is one race, one vote;

Since when were the rules ever decided by a vote of the competitors?

 

your right!

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T&A Racing

 

I think what he means is one race, one vote;

Since when were the rules ever decided by a vote of the competitors?

 

your right!

 

 

Guys we get a vote, every time we spend our money for an event, stop spending some one will listen and make changes. Remember NASA is a for profit business which means we are the customers and customers vote with money.

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I think what he means is one race, one vote;

This is great if you want a rule set that benefits the existing racers at the expense of future racers.

 

If I was on the sidelines deciding if I wanted to go full time racing next year and wasn't allowed to have my suggestions heard or any say (vote) in changes, I would be reconsidering my options.

 

This sounds like another amature race organization that keeps the rules so locked down to benefit the existing membership. They just allowed that new fangled fuel injection last year... You know, we don't need any of that new (30 year old) technology messing with our series.

 

j

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firehawkclone
I think what he means is one race, one vote;

This is great if you want a rule set that benefits the existing racers at the expense of future racers.

 

If I was on the sidelines deciding if I wanted to go full time racing next year and wasn't allowed to have my suggestions heard or any say (vote) in changes, I would be reconsidering my options.

 

This sounds like another amature race organization that keeps the rules so locked down to benefit the existing membership. They just allowed that new fangled fuel injection last year... You know, we don't need any of that new (30 year old) technology messing with our series.

 

j

You also don't want to drive out the current. I know this isn't easy…

 

Despite want most here think, I can not up grade( as in a corvette ABS, which is still not equal) to keep up with the new cars racing parts. However it's easy for them to remove it like CMC/2.

 

I don't like to blur the line between 2 and us. Let's distance are selfs with HP/TQ and tires sizes.

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You also don't want to drive out the current. I know this isn't easy…

I totally agree. That's why there should be an equitable way for existing and potential drivers to have input, inlcuding voting, on rules changes. Constructive, objective discussion by past, current and future racers will make for a stronger series.

 

Now, if you think there's a chance for car chiefs to vote, let me know. Afterall, we're the ones that keep these things running and put them back together when you tear them up.

 

j

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Now I know that I am a very small fish in the sea but I like to think that I represent all the other small fish in the big sea that want to come play in American Iron. I represent the person that does not have big money in their car or the means to put big money in their car, the person that runs on used tires but can still be competitive, the person that doesn't own his or her own business or high up on the corporate food chain, I am your average every day American Joe.

 

My idea is different, might be radical to some, but I will explain how I think the club could benefit from it.

 

In a nut shell my idea is kind of like an old ALMS series rule, give the privateer a little advantage over the manufacture backed teams. Now I know there is no real factory backed teams in AI, we are all privateers however I believe there is a group of people out there that want to get into AI but fall somewhere between AI and CMC and don't have the budget to build a full on AI car. I guess what I am trying to say is I think it would be fun to give people that want to run AI with cars that are not prepared to the same levels as the tops dogs in class (full on front and rear racing suspensions, areo etc) a little more of sporting chance. Maybe give them a little HP advantage but keep the same weight. I just feel by making that change would open up the AI door to a new group of people and quite possibly our car counts per event could increase. I know there are a ton of people out there that are deterred by the thought of building a car on a budget that cant even be street driven anymore just to never be competitive against someone with a bigger wallet. Some will say build a car for CMC instead, however CMC is for Camaros, mustangs, and firebirds, that leaves A LOT of other cars that fit the definition of eligible AI cars out of the lower ranks.

 

So here's how it would fit:

 

---------->a) Willl decrease series cost because… Cost of building an AI race car would be cheaper.

---------->b) Will increase series growth because… More cars in AI means more money for NASA in entrance fees both in yearly membership, HPDE classes and AI entry fees.

---------->c) Will improve competition because… More cars participating in events.

 

Idk it was just a cool new idea that popped in my head. Maybe the pain caused by my wisdom teeth coming in is clouding my judgment lol.

 

Shane

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Now I know that I am a very small fish in the sea but I like to think that I represent all the other small fish in the big sea that want to come play in American Iron. I represent the person that does not have big money in their car or the means to put big money in their car, the person that runs on used tires but can still be competitive, the person that doesn't own his or her own business or high up on the corporate food chain, I am your average every day American Joe.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is I think it would be fun to give people that want to run AI with cars that are not prepared to the same levels as the tops dogs in class (full on front and rear racing suspensions, areo etc) a little more of sporting chance. Maybe give them a little HP advantage but keep the same weight. I just feel by making that change would open up the AI door to a new group of people and quite possibly our car counts per event could increase. I know there are a ton of people out there that are deterred by the thought of building a car on a budget that cant even be street driven anymore just to never be competitive against someone with a bigger wallet.

 

Shane, not having a suspension bought out of a catalog or a big dollar wing/splitter doesn't give you any less of a chance. The question is how bad do you want it? Tweaking setups, analyzing performance, and spending a lot of time at the drawing board doesn't cost a whole lot but it can pay big dividends.

 

I run a stock k-member, stock a-arms, stock spindles, re-valved Koni SAs, and a 3rd link rear suspension that I put together myself reading Carroll Smith books and doing a lot of research. My aero is a $100 dirt track spoiler with 6" cut off each side and a hunk of roll plastic from a circle track shop. How did I get an idea what would work? Reading Competition Car Aerodynamics a couple times and analyzing whatever stock car aero data I could get my hands on.

 

The fact I've come to realize in racing is that someone will always have a bigger wallet and you can't hold it against them if you're all playing within the same rule set. Can't be sore about it, just figure out how to build a better mouse trap and beat 'em on a budget.

 

Get your seat time squared away before you spend more money on the car (except safety). When you're starting out, seat time is worth more speed then another 10-20 HP ever will be.

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