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Lemming

Poll: Rule Change; HP/TQ and Min weight on all cars

Shall GTS adopt the following rule?  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. Shall GTS adopt the following rule?

    • Yes
      29
    • No
      4


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Lemming

Shall GTS adopt a new rule that all cars must have a sticker placed on the car that shows declared HP/TQ and minimum weight?

 

I vote yes.

 

 

Sorry, there is no poll feature on my screen. I think I must be on double secret probation for being a PITA

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cwbaader

Tim, why would you even have rules that are not enforced? Chuck

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ianacole

I added the poll for you.

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Lemming
Tim, why would you even have rules that are not enforced? Chuck

 

I can still dream

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JSG1901

In Great Lakes and Midwest, we already do this. So, YES.

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Damon in STL

I would vote yes for the sticker.

 

I would vote no for the minimum weight.

 

When I first read the post I voted "YES". I didn't comprehend the minimum weight part......

 

Damon in STL

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scottbm3
I would vote yes for the sticker.

 

I would vote no for the minimum weight.

 

When I first read the post I voted "YES". I didn't comprehend the minimum weight part......

 

Damon in STL

Damon,

 

Why not the minimum weight. Its just your HP X the lowest ratio number for whichever GTS class you're running ? We already have them in the MW/GL region. Its what tech uses when we go to scales.

 

-Scott B.

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911.racer

Yes, in GL and MW we already have this. Mine shows HP TQ and Min Weight.

 

I can not imagine why anyone would want that to be a secret and I am all about making the job of our volunteers easier. Scales and Dyno.

 

I would exand this requirement to be dyno numbers too. After all, not real hard to figure out what the dyno number needs to be if you have the class and the min weight.

 

Thanks

 

Ed Baus

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KTL

Absolutely yes. It's the foundation upon which GTS is based, so why is there a reluctance to display it?

 

Secondly how is one to know what your stated wt. and HP is if it's not explicity available on your car? Do I have to go to NASA Central and ask for it? I think it's no different than any other rule in the rule book. Meaning, other NASA CCR regulations clearly state what must be adhered to and these regulations are observable or measurable. The HP/WT/TQ numbers should be identified so compliance can be observed.

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Eric W.
Absolutely yes. It's the foundation upon which GTS is based, so why is there a reluctance to display it?

 

Secondly how is one to know what your stated wt. and HP is if it's not explicity available on your car? Do I have to go to NASA Central and ask for it? I think it's no different than any other rule in the rule book. Meaning, other NASA CCR regulations clearly state what must be adhered to and these regulations are observable or measurable. The HP/WT/TQ numbers should be identified so compliance can be observed.

 

There isnt a reluctance to display it. The problem is coordinating, getting them all printed out, etc etc.

 

You can always ask your regional GTS director for the HP/weight numbers. They arent private.

 

If the purpose of this rule is so your fellow competitors can know what you are running, just ask your GTS director at the driver's meeting. It has to be disclosed.

 

If the purpose of this rule is to help with impound procedure, each region has their own way of handling impound. It might help, or it might not help.

 

The rules specifically state a solid ratio that you need to be within for each class. This is clearly displayed on all vehicles, so why do we need to get into the nitty gritty details. Sure it is nice to have, but to start micromanaging and having every little minor detail be spelled out in the rules is unnecessary IMO.

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cstreit911

As Scott has said, we do this on the tech/impound stickers.

 

I actually voted "no". Why?

 

You can ask me any time and I'll show you all the dyno sheets. They are on EVERY car in our region. It's public record.

 

Why make ANOTHER rule for something that isn't necessary. Sure this sticker is a nice to have, but why muck up the rules with it?

 

A vote for "yes" means we should also have a rule stating every single obvious thing that can easily be looked up. It just ain't needed, there are no secrets. I've never had anyone NOT tell me their numbers if I asked them.

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KTL

I guess i'm confused by the question/rule change.

 

1. My comment about rules can be taken the wrong way. I'm not saying every rule should somehow be called-out/displayed on the car. That would be ridiculous and impossible. What i'm saying is this is THE biggest rule of GTS- it's two pieces of information that establish where your car falls in class.

 

Never meant to imply there's a reluctance to display it, because I do indeed understand that it's information that must already be provided at some point, in order for herr director to class you accordingly.

 

2. I'm confused by the question because some people are responding by saying some regions already do it with their impound/tech sticker, so why make it a rule? Simply for consistency I suppose? The sticker has proven to be a useful tool for the regions doing it. So make it mandatory since its a proven winner. Plus, come on, it's not like the GTS rulebook is a manifesto of 100's of pages..........

 

I understand its a PITA to manage the database of info from a director standpoint, so don't do that with the sticker. Hand out blank stickers that people fill in themselves. Or don't even do that. Put a pdf of the blank sticker on the GTS site and make people print it out themselves. Doesn't have to be a decal- use plain paper and tape it on the windshield with clear packing tape.

 

Lastly, what if i'm not class-optimized (silly me, why would I even do that) and decide I want to dump some weight from my car, but I didn't formally state my weight to the director? Example, if I claim 2550 wt., 220 hp, 200 tq. (11.6 = GTS3) on DOT tires, and I come off the track at 2510....... so what. Am I DQ'd? I'm still above 11.0 for GTS3.

 

I don't care either way really and i'm not trying to make more out of this than it really is. It doesn't really change anything because like you guys said, it's not secret information. Unlike my Level 5 eyes-only classified brake pad compound....

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Lemming

The information is not freely available in all regions. I applaud those regions that provide the information on windshields and freely give it out to anyone who asks. However, that doesn't happen everywhere. I suggested last year that a spreadsheet of the information be put up on the GTS website where everyone had access to it. I somehow thought that it was going to be done, but it has not materialized. The centralized information would take care of the situation for all those who want to see the declared numbers as well as being useful to directors when out of region racers show up.

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RSCoupe

In Midwest and Great Lakes regions we don't claim a weight. We just submit the required dyno sheet, and the series director figures out the math. The info on the sticker is mainly to make impound easier/faster, and they appreciate it.

I guess I do agree that it doesn't need to be a "rule" per se.

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scottbm3
I guess i'm confused by the question/rule change.

 

1. My comment about rules can be taken the wrong way. I'm not saying every rule should somehow be called-out/displayed on the car. That would be ridiculous and impossible. What i'm saying is this is THE biggest rule of GTS- it's two pieces of information that establish where your car falls in class.

 

Never meant to imply there's a reluctance to display it, because I do indeed understand that it's information that must already be provided at some point, in order for herr director to class you accordingly.

 

2. I'm confused by the question because some people are responding by saying some regions already do it with their impound/tech sticker, so why make it a rule? Simply for consistency I suppose? The sticker has proven to be a useful tool for the regions doing it. So make it mandatory since its a proven winner. Plus, come on, it's not like the GTS rulebook is a manifesto of 100's of pages..........

 

I understand its a PITA to manage the database of info from a director standpoint, so don't do that with the sticker. Hand out blank stickers that people fill in themselves. Or don't even do that. Put a pdf of the blank sticker on the GTS site and make people print it out themselves. Doesn't have to be a decal- use plain paper and tape it on the windshield with clear packing tape.

 

Lastly, what if i'm not class-optimized (silly me, why would I even do that) and decide I want to dump some weight from my car, but I didn't formally state my weight to the director? Example, if I claim 2550 wt., 220 hp, 200 tq. (11.6 = GTS3) on DOT tires, and I come off the track at 2510....... so what. Am I DQ'd? I'm still above 11.0 for GTS3.

 

I don't care either way really and i'm not trying to make more out of this than it really is. It doesn't really change anything because like you guys said, it's not secret information. Unlike my Level 5 eyes-only classified brake pad compound....

 

 

Just to clarify. You don't declare your weight. You provide a dyno sheet and the class that you run to the director. Your HP/Trq. determines your weight. The weight numbers on the tech sticker in the GL/MW region is your "minimum" weight determined by your most current dyno sheet that the director has. At 220 HP. your minumum weight would be 2420lbs.

 

It's not all that hard to figure out if you take time to read and understand our(GTS) very thin rule set that I'm hoping stays the same....... well there's one part I'd like to see Removed, but that probably won't happen....

 

 

-Scott B.

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KTL

Thanks for the clarification of my off-topic question. I'm about 130 lbs. fat so i've got some things to play with. Look out, here comes the speedhole saw......

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Eric W.
If you look at the dyno cert sheet (http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/GTS-Challenge-Dyno_Form.pdf), it asks for race weight. I've always assumed that this is minimum weight, but guess that it does not have to be (although for most of us it is really close!).

 

I think maybe that form should be amended to say Min. Race Weight. We've never gone by declared weight. You declare HP and minimum weight is calculated from a specific class ratio. Therefore, whatever #s you put on your windshield, IMO, is just doubling of information. You've already declared your class, which is a specific ratio, and that class designation should be on your car. Is the point of this rule so you can read the #s off someone's windshield so you can play with your own calculator?

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Lemming
If you look at the dyno cert sheet (http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/GTS-Challenge-Dyno_Form.pdf), it asks for race weight. I've always assumed that this is minimum weight, but guess that it does not have to be (although for most of us it is really close!).

 

Is the point of this rule so you can read the #s off someone's windshield so you can play with your own calculator?

 

No. The point is that GTS drivers can police their own ranks, especially in the lawless regions Knowing the declared hp/tq and weight of a car will allow competitors a better idea of whether someone is legal or not.

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Eric W.
If you look at the dyno cert sheet (http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/GTS-Challenge-Dyno_Form.pdf), it asks for race weight. I've always assumed that this is minimum weight, but guess that it does not have to be (although for most of us it is really close!).

 

Is the point of this rule so you can read the #s off someone's windshield so you can play with your own calculator?

 

No. The point is that GTS drivers can police their own ranks, especially in the lawless regions Knowing the declared hp/tq and weight of a car will allow competitors a better idea of whether someone is legal or not.

 

But if youre allowed to write in your own #s (as suggested in earlier post) wouldnt that be moot? Someone could just write down any random # and since it is a lawless region, there still wont be any real idea of legality.

 

Does Drew/Chuck keep dyno files or does NASA-SE hold them? I know for MidAtl, I have them all and anyone who asks is free to look at them. Although you will have to trust me caus lately Ive stopped bringing the whole big stack to the track and just print out a spreadsheet before the event

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Lemming

But if youre allowed to write in your own #s (as suggested in earlier post) wouldnt that be moot? Someone could just write down any random # and since it is a lawless region, there still wont be any real idea of legality.

 

Does Drew/Chuck keep dyno files or does NASA-SE hold them? I know for MidAtl, I have them all and anyone who asks is free to look at them. Although you will have to trust me caus lately Ive stopped bringing the whole big stack to the track and just print out a spreadsheet before the event

 

I don't think allowing the driver to write in their own numbers is a good idea.

 

Eric, you are very good about sharing the numbers when asked, NASA-SE is not so accommodating. I still like the idea of a centralized spread sheet with all the information.

 

It is my opinion that NASA-SE is far too trusting of its drivers. Below is a perfect example; someone from out of region asked if his car would be impounded after the 8-hr enduro this coming December. The response is from Jim, NASA-SE Director. Don't get me wrong, I like Jim, but he is far to trusting in my opinion.

 

Impound: unless you show up with a 7,000 hp miata and claim to be in E2 we will believe you. Besides the race is long enough to sort out the cars that are past the ragged edge of reliability. If we need to impound someone we will, but we believe in treating everyone as adults and trust they are 99% honest.

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KTL

My suggestion of filling out your own compliance/impound sticker is simply to take the burden off the series director of also having to be the sticker cop. Since the director is in possession of the dyno sheets & min. weight calculation, it would be foolish for the competitor to fudge the sticker. By doing that, it seems one would be openly displaying the lie?

 

My suggestion here is of course assuming the series director has that dyno documentation. Otherwise, yes, the lawlessness makes a sticker moot because there's no official documentation to adhere to.

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JSG1901
My suggestion of filling out your own compliance/impound sticker is simply to take the burden off the series director of also having to be the sticker cop. Since the director is in possession of the dyno sheets & min. weight calculation, it would be foolish for the competitor to fudge the sticker. By doing that, it seems one would be openly displaying the lie?

 

My suggestion here is of course assuming the series director has that dyno documentation. Otherwise, yes, the lawlessness makes a sticker moot because there's no official documentation to adhere to.

Although I appreciate the idea of somebody else doing some of my work, I would worry about what was on the stickers if they didn't come from me/NASA. Having said that, I've got my share of them wrong this year but there's been no shortage of people willing to point it out for me!

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Damon in STL
I would vote yes for the sticker.

 

I would vote no for the minimum weight.

 

When I first read the post I voted "YES". I didn't comprehend the minimum weight part......

 

Damon in STL

Damon,

 

Why not the minimum weight. Its just your HP X the lowest ratio number for whichever GTS class you're running ? We already have them in the MW/GL region. Its what tech uses when we go to scales.

 

-Scott B.

 

Sometimes I like to just randomly disagree with stuff.....keeps everyone on their toes....

 

Damon

 

p.s. My game plan for next year is to actively de-tune to maximize power to weight. I have a plasma cutter and keep finding things to cut off....my minimum weight may vary from race to race. At the end of the day if a car is put on the dyno....it's weight must fall within the power to weight rules for the class the car is running.

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