TT -> 2011 rules speculation! (Joke Thread-outrageous ideas)

[kbrew8991]

Spec Tires suck - if I wanted to deal with that I'd have an SM or SE30 already

 

Street Tires can indeed be competitive if:

1.) the car owner picks the parts/car properly

2.) if the credit for street tires is selected correctly

 

You're on some crack if you don't think they're close already at +/- 0 pts - see item #1 btw, don't bitch that its not competitive/fair/whatever if you're not doing the legwork to test and get it right

 

Maybe I'm the one on crack - anyone want to fund my build so I can prove it?

[Varkwso]

How about making TT a Spec Tire group and everyone has to Run RA-1's or 888's and get Toyo to come on board and support Regional events and Championships like they do race groups.

 

If your gonna dream.

 

Hoosier is a better deal then Toyo. CMC I never got a tire due to numbers.

[STRINGER]

ok ok ok...all my joking aside.

 

Hoosier is a good thing for sure. Would be nice to see Toyo come on board too.

[sperkins]

How about leaving the rules alone for a year or two so we don't have to spend money just to stay where we are?

Amen brother. I've spent way too much time and money to start over because of a squeaky wheel or two.

[drivinhardz06]

Up the maximum no-points class tire by 20mm and set the class minimum treadwear at 100. I know that knocks out the magic donuts (A6, R6 and C91), but it would bring some of the expenses down by having tires that last more than 10 heat cycles.

 

Are you saying all 100 TW tires would be assessed different points, or the same points? My issue with the same points is TW is a vague number that varies between various donut makers and in no way reflects lap time capability. And if you assess them at various points, aren't we back to square one in trying to "equalize" the various tires by ranking them by points?

 

I actually love the "pick your points" of the PT set-up (which of course TT follows). IMHO it makes it as much a shop nerd activity as it does a driver activity. Obviously nobody racing PT is going to want to run on street tires and are any of the NASA (not F1) rules ever put in place to reduce costs? It's racing, I just figure it's always going to be absurdly expensive. If you can't beat the other guy with $1300 in tires, you'll just spend that $1300 somewhere else I see you're point though, but I think it would be easier to swallow if there weren't contingency programs where Hoosier is throwing around free tires (and you don't have to finish 1st to win a lot of tires).

 

At the end of the day, I think the PT/TT rules are pretty cool, and pretty fair. But echo'ing the above, keeping things fairly much the same from year to year would be nice, especially for those of us that are right on the edge of bumping into an unlimited class based on base classing, and have a good bit invested in the current sandbox we have.

 

BTW a question I have always wanted to ask, I have heard the standard "the classes are split in a way so that each class is supposed to be 2-3 secs/lap faster than the previous". So is one to assume the pts are broken down to try to represent those 2-3 secs? Ie, 10 pts would be 1-1.5 sec (generally)?

[cmchopeful]

How about -21 pts for tracking an automatic

With an auto, a manual valve body, a ratchet shifter, and a bigass fluid cooler, you can pretend you have a sequential gearbox!

 

Mark

 

Looked into that idea a while back and it would be nice to get some engine braking. Brakes in this beast are expensive not to mention that it throws off others behind me when I stand on the brakes early. I'll look into that again.

 

On the street tire topic, I can tell you from running them off and on for a couple of years that on streets my times put me mid-pack TTE when on streets. Currently Dunlop Star Spec with 200 TW.

 

We can't get rid of the R-comp tires in TT, but I do like the idea of a credit I could take when I can't haul my R's to the track.

[Vinny]

Up one class for whining on the forums.

[kbrew8991]

Up one class for whining on the forums.

actually I can see that catching on!

[BlkGt3]

Up one class for whining on the forums.

actually I can see that catching on!

 

Ken,

 

That would put you in TTU++

 

Rules stability is good. Street tires 180 or better could go 20mm larger but messing with points opens up a big can of worms.

 

Peter

[philstireservice]

How about leaving the rules alone for a year or two so we don't have to spend money just to stay where we are?

 

Agreed.

 

Spec tire for TT? Go with Toyo and throw Hoosiers continued generosity out the window? Crazy talk!

 

 

Exactly...cause the Hoosier Tire contingency is an absolute gift !!!

[drivinhardz06]

Street Tires can indeed be competitive if:

1.) the car owner picks the parts/car properly

2.) if the credit for street tires is selected correctly

Maybe I'm the one on crack - anyone want to fund my build so I can prove it?

 

I love out the box thinking as much as anyone, but this would be a tough engineering challenge. There is nothing that can affect lap time more than tires, and street tires going up against A6/C91/V710, etc would be a tall mountain. For a car already at the hp/weight limit, I dunno where you could spend your points enough to get that time back. We are talking several seconds a lap (up to 5-6 IMHO). Maybe if the street tire credit is a hp/weight bump and you are on a hp track like RA or VIR. Also maybe on a lower hp car that's % of lap at WOT is more to begin with. On a high hp car, you simply can't stay in the throttle enough on street tires to even come close to how much engine duty cycle you can run while on a fresh set of R comps.

 

Good discussion though, maybe should be it's own thread

[kbrew8991]

you're thinking TTA-TTB car where I'm thinking TTE-TTF car. The higher the class / more horsepower / heavier the car the tougher it'll be I agree.

 

I guess I see too much autox stuff and keep thinking how easy it'd be to adapt some of the stuff that works. When you see a POS 1989 Civic or POS 1992 Miata pull 1.0-1.1g on 195 width street tires where more well prepared cars on Hoosier As are only in the 1.2-1.4 range on the same surface it starts gears turning in my head though at least

[boomn29]

I love out the box thinking as much as anyone, but this would be a tough engineering challenge. There is nothing that can affect lap time more than tires, and street tires going up against A6/C91/V710, etc would be a tall mountain. For a car already at the hp/weight limit, I dunno where you could spend your points enough to get that time back. We are talking several seconds a lap (up to 5-6 IMHO).......

 

You can tell the SpecZ06 guys pretty easy!

Not all cars are at the hp/weight class ratio limit right from the factory; just the SpecZ06's. The rest of us actually have some upgrades/points that we have to choose from and 2 of our choices are HP and weight to help work on our ratio.

 

If someone ran street tires, I'm sure it's in an effect to increase their ratio and push it closer to their class min.

 

Now am I for a negative for streets; not really. I could try it; and I do. I'll show up on streets to save HC's, use them as rain tires, run them in other series (Redline Street) etc. One of the biggest differences my data has shown is braking! Of course I'm running a similar sized street which ends up actually measuring quite narrower than Hoosiers.

 

But even on a 2 mile course, I've seen as much as 3-4 seconds difference with all else the same. Depends on if it's a technical course and/or how hard the braking zones are. Both will increase the advantage for Hoo-Hoo's.

[FormulaRedline]

How about leaving the rules alone for a year or two so we don't have to spend money just to stay where we are?

^This and...

I do think that, if tire points changes are on the docket, it would be great if the 2011 rules came out before the December 15 deadline to cash in our tire contingency forms.

...this^

 

Let's make as few changes to the rules as possible and get that information out yesterday! Help us out, Greg...tires are expensive and I'd like not to waste the contingency ones on sizes/compounds I won't be able to use. Not to mention that I'm already itching to start working on the car for next year!

[sperkins]

I can see it now. If the pw/wt ratio is lowered for street tire use, some wild eyed crazy guy is going to use all available points for horsepower. 170mph headed into 10A at Rd Atl on stock brakes and street tires.

[obzezzed350]

I can see it now. If the pw/wt ratio is lowered for street tire use, some wild eyed crazy guy is going to use all available points for horsepower. 170mph headed into 10A at Rd Atl on stock brakes and street tires.

 

Only has to make it do one lap...

 

(coming from the guy who thinks your TT time for the day should be some average of your top 3/5 laps on the day or something)

[kbrew8991]

with no cage, seat, harness, driver protection, head/neck restraint, open face motorcycle helmet

 

can't save everyone from themselves....

[FormulaRedline]

(coming from the guy who thinks your TT time for the day should be some average of your top 3/5 laps on the day or something)

You must either run on huge tracks or have lower event attendance than we've been having up here, then. I had events this year where I didn't get a single non-traffic lap the entire weekend, never mind three to five. I'd prefer to keep TT as a test of driver skill, and I guess setup skill as this threads indicates, than the luck of the draw for how consistently the drivers you are gridded by (or who are so slow you are lapping them by the 2nd hot lap) chose to drive. I really like your idea assuming it's actually averaging clean hot laps, but that just not a practical reality. We'd have to split TT into two groups, each with as much track time as they currently have, and I don't see that happening.

 

Not that it's really the topic of discussion in this thread...but just wanted to point out how that idea might not work so well in some regions!

[brkntrxn]

I can see it now. If the pw/wt ratio is lowered for street tire use, some wild eyed crazy guy is going to use all available points for horsepower. 170mph headed into 10A at Rd Atl on stock brakes and street tires.

 

And that is different from today how?

 

Oh wait, you are talking about us well-prepared TT professionals and not HPDE/lapping drivers. Sorry.

[obzezzed350]

Its a thread about ridiculous rule proposals...though I dont think its ridiculous. It would never happen. Here in Florida, we grid the cars before the session with the fastest guys out first. It usually allows for clean hot laps, at least in the beginning of the session. Aside from your situation where you didnt get one clean lap, 3/5 solid hot laps in a day over 4 sessions (5 now in the SE I believe) should be easy to do.

[FormulaRedline]

Its a thread about ridiculous rule proposals...though I dont think its ridiculous. It would never happen. Here in Florida, we grid the cars before the session with the fastest guys out first. It usually allows for clean hot laps, at least in the beginning of the session. Aside from your situation where you didnt get one clean lap, 3/5 solid hot laps in a day over 4 sessions (5 now in the SE I believe) should be easy to do.

You guys aren't different, we do the same here. I thought they did timed grids everywhere? We just have that many people, especially at the Midwest/Great Lakes cross-over events. When you put 40 cars on a track that run times from 1:15 to 1:30 or 43 on a 1:30 to 1:45 track, you just don't get clean laps. Especially since guys that are running near identical lap times can be running them in completely different ways (i.e. S2000 fast in the corners vs Corvette fast on the straights). You have to spread out to not catch each other in the wrong spots and so the fast cars catch the end of the train within a couple of hot laps.

 

Additionally, light cars on skinny tires are ready to go quick out of the gate while the high HP wider tire cars ahead of them may need a hot lap to get enough heat into the tires. It doesn't make sense for the skinny tires cars to pass the wider tired cars, because they'll just catch them the next lap. This leads to even more room needing to be left between the cars, exacerbating the problem.

 

It's really all just some basic queuing theory where any given car's lap time is random variable. Given the wide variance, we just don't have the capacity at some races to have a decent probability of a clean lap. Are your region's tracks that big and your car counts that low? How many sessions of what duration do you run for TT?

[obzezzed350]

Our counts vary based on the track. We have 15 TT cars + a few HPDE4 cars this weekend but had 20+ cars in TT/HPDE4 last month at Sebring. Both obviously lower than your region. Our tracks range from 3.4 miles at Sebring (2:25-2:40/lap), 2.4 miles at Homestead Miami (1:35-1:50/lap), and 2.2 miles at PBIR(1:25-1:40). I see your point, I just dont think one lap should determine a winner.

[TurboShortBus]

Here in Florida, we grid the cars before the session with the fastest guys out first.

Well, we try to, but it doesn't work when most TT drivers arrive at the grid after the session has started.

 

The one time I ran a Road Atlanta with NASA-SE with 30-something cars, the TT grid process was smooth and drama-free. They also had 2-3 dedicated grid workers, not just the TT director who is trying to grid cars, compete in TT, and ensure that timing and scoring are working.

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

support staff can make you look like a hero or a zero

[TurboShortBus]

I just dont think one lap should determine a winner.

Unfortunately, in regions with tons of cars and shorter tracks, one clean lap per day is all you might get.

 

Mark