2011 Rules Update & Leadership Team meeting minutes

[nape]

Your points 1-4 are a great reason to not have an AIX class, if it did not exist those people could get in compliance or fun run with AI till they did, either way we would have bigger fields.

 

I come from a motocross background and they started with a few basic classes, after little timmy and the fat old man couldn't win they whined and got thier own classes and then we went from being there a day, to being there all weekend, with less track time.

 

Getting rid of AIX won't get those people into AI. The excuses of "I don't have Toyos", "I don't have a dyno sheet", or "It just doesn't matter to me" won't change, they'll just go run ST or SU instead. Believe me, I've tried to get people to do it in the Midwest but it honestly doesn't matter to them.

 

Changing AIX without anyone whining about it isn't the way to do it. Not only do we not have anyone wishing to fill the void, but we alienate 3 strong competitors.

[T&A Racing]

So has any one who has actually race in AIX in the last year or two thought a hp limit is a good idea. TJ you are right on it again, forcing limits in AIX will not do anything but drive away more cars. It sounds like the guys who actually know how to build an AIX are are find with it the way it is for the most part. Like Chris says if you want to build one let him know and he can help you get it done for a reasonable price, well reasonable for racing I guess.

[gbrown8439]

2 points.

2. What is the fundimental difference between aix and su?

 

Super Unlimited has very few rules. Daytona Prototypes, GT1/Trans Am cars, Open wheel/closed wheel sports racers, NASCAR style cars, and just about anything you can think of can race there.

 

As fast as AIX is getting we would still get our butts handed to us by any competent SU car.

 

So has any one who has actually race in AIX in the last year or two thought a hp limit is a good idea.

 

NO

[D Algozine]

Like many of the other responders, I'm not an AIX racer, but like so many others, I'm compelled to offer up some thoughts. (not sure why)

Firstly, I don't think it's a bad idea to look at ways to draw more AIX racers into the mix. Knowing what it takes, without alienating the current racers may prove to be tough. Perhaps an "Extreme" hp limit is an option. In my opinion 600 hp doesn't seem like enough, but 850-900 sounds pretty good. Keep a minimum weight and a high max HP, but not a HP to weight limit. Perspective AIX racers will know what they need to bring to the table, regarding hp to be competitive, and from my understanding, 850-900 is about where the top guys are currently running. Just offering some thoughts to kick around. If anything is changed, I think 3-4 years notice should be given.

[pbr96]

Slicks for AIX? Seriously...wait, this is suppose to save us money right? Have you priced a set of Michelin slicks because I have! Oh, then we need different wheels because all the slicks really want a 12” width, or they are to small and you burn them off, again, I know because I’ve done it.

 

Stop the insanity, leave it the $#^k alone. No changes for AIX and anyone running ABS add 100lbs to base weight which is not part of the “power-to-weight ratio” and call it good. That’s what was done in the “pro” ranks and it worked good, some people ran ABS and some didn’t. This "tweaking" over months is ridiculous! The frustration, uncertainly and bickering drives more people away than the actually rules do!

 

This is why I usually stay off the boards and work in the shop all night, you can't win a race on a forum.

[robbodleimages]

i am one of those guys that runs aix because not being quite ai legal. i dont have any 18x9.5's right now. i have plenty of good bfg's that i havent used yet and 18" toyos are stupid expensive. as long as i keep a street exhaust on the car it dynos as legal for ai, if i want to do that.

 

i would offer this. if the current mustang gt is at the ai power to weight ratio, where will it be with long tube headers and a tune and an intake and stuff?

 

where would a current camaro with some go fast stuff be? thats over ai legal for sure. i can make my car a quality st2 car if i wanted to, but wouldnt there be more of those kind of cars available to race an ai ish class than current aix cars?

 

my suggestion would be to add an ai class rather than mess with aix. ai 2.0?

[nape]

...you can't win a race on a forum.

 

Quoted for truth.

[nape]

i am one of those guys that runs aix because not being quite ai legal. i dont have any 18x9.5's right now. i have plenty of good bfg's that i havent used yet and 18" toyos are stupid expensive. as long as i keep a street exhaust on the car it dynos as legal for ai, if i want to do that.

 

i would offer this. if the current mustang gt is at the ai power to weight ratio, where will it be with long tube headers and a tune and an intake and stuff?

 

where would a current camaro with some go fast stuff be? thats over ai legal for sure. i can make my car a quality st2 car if i wanted to, but wouldnt there be more of those kind of cars available to race an ai ish class than current aix cars?

 

my suggestion would be to add an ai class rather than mess with aix. ai 2.0?

 

You are one of the guys that fits in my list of 4 excuses well. It would be simple and relatively cost effective (sell the 18x10s and BFGs, buy 18x9.5s and Toyos) to become AI legal yet you refuse to do it. You did it with the AS guys when you had the T1 car, now that you have an old GA car, you want AI to change the rules for it to fit.

 

If a current GT is AI legal out of the box, don't add long tubes, a tune, and an intake. Same thing for the Camaro. If you want to do "race car" stuff to it, plan on running a big restrictor.

[King Matt]

Some guys want to race and will find a class with rules they can compete in. Other guys just want to play with fast toys and as much as they tease you with their indecision and excuses, they will never come race no matter how much you gerrymander the rules to accommodate them. Pandering to them is just a waste of time that aggravates the people who have made the commitment. The leadership needs to have a strategy for a class structure that makes sense and meets the goals they have for American Iron, whatever that may be. I've been following AI/CMC for close to 10 years and I'm not sure I know what that vision is yet, but I think they will eventually get there.

[robbodleimages]

tj, selling stuff for a worthwhile return isnt what it used to be. i would certainly trade a set of my 10's for a equally good set of 9.5's, but thats really not an option. ive tried to sell a set to buy a set and had no interest at all. zip.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Guest

[robbodleimages]

Some guys want to race and will find a class with rules they can compete in. Other guys just want to play with fast toys and as much as they tease you with their indecision and excuses, they will never come race no matter how much you gerrymander the rules to accommodate them. Pandering to them is just a waste of time that aggravates the people who have made the commitment. The leadership needs to have a strategy for a class structure that makes sense and meets the goals they have for American Iron, whatever that may be. I've been following AI/CMC for close to 10 years and I'm not sure I know what that vision is yet, but I think they will eventually get there.

 

who is pandering to who?

[King Matt]

Some guys want to race and will find a class with rules they can compete in. Other guys just want to play with fast toys and as much as they tease you with their indecision and excuses, they will never come race no matter how much you gerrymander the rules to accommodate them. Pandering to them is just a waste of time that aggravates the people who have made the commitment. The leadership needs to have a strategy for a class structure that makes sense and meets the goals they have for American Iron, whatever that may be. I've been following AI/CMC for close to 10 years and I'm not sure I know what that vision is yet, but I think they will eventually get there.

 

who is pandering to who?

 

I'm talking about changing rules in the hope that if you build it, they will come. The only time that makes any sense is when there is a specific group of cars that are disenfranchised for some reason looking for a new home, like the recent moves to place the Mustang Challenge cars in WC, or consolidating Trans AM and GT-1. But changing AIX rules in the hope that some open class guy sitting on the side lines will jump in doesn't make any sense to me. The class is what it is. It may not make a lot of sense the way it is, but to kick the current guys in the balls isn't right either.

[Grizlbits]

Rob, your worried about buying a set of wheels and tires?

 

Try building a $75,000 car then have the class pulled out from under you. My car will not be legal unless I take of the turbo. Then all I have to do is change the gear ratio in the rear end and transmission, the entire exhaust, the pistons, cam, intake, injectors, the entire intercooler, reprogram the entire tune, etc, etc. All for a car that was legal.

 

When asked for reasoning, I was told it was because the guys who left racing in AIX said they could not keep up with the hp. I am willing to wager that most of them have blown up a motor, or such and had expenses that were unexpected. I know I have. I did not plan on getting hit, breaking wheels, motors transmissions etc. Like Greg said, hp is relatively cheap these days. Where am I going with this? Lets look back at the real problem. The guys who left AIX, mostly left racing altogether, not just AIX. So the guys who got out of AIX did so not entirely becasue of the hp. They left racing.

 

There is a four year average with people who race. A lot of people race for 4-5 years, then find a new hobby. Asking these people why they stopped racing, or why they stopped AIX should not set the rules for the class. The active people in AIX (in our area anyway) are in it for the long term. They are building cars to the AIX potential. At least were before this crap about a limit came up.

 

I know AIX did not have a lot of cars at Nationals. But everyone was down. AI had 12. CMC had what 7? CMC2 had 6? STR2 had 3. The PT classes averaged 4 per class. Lets be ralistic. AIX will never have 10 cars per regional race in most regions. It does fill a niche, though. If you force them into SU with the GT1 cars and the radicals, they will get frustrated and quit.

 

AIX is a different animal. If you want limits, you should really be racing AI. Don't pee in our sandbox.

[nape]

tj, selling stuff for a worthwhile return isnt what it used to be. i would certainly trade a set of my 10's for a equally good set of 9.5's, but thats really not an option. ive tried to sell a set to buy a set and had no interest at all. zip.

you also miss my point entirely. thats ok.

 

you seem to thnk i am making excuses because i dont want to race or something. I have an enduro co driver that trades me 8 sticker bfg's to a stint in a 3 hour race. i have tried to sell those tires and the return in this market place is enough to buy 2 toyo 18's. at that point its no longer worth doing the enduro trade, if thats the basis for the deal.

 

When I first got into AI, I ran on 16x8s because it's what I had, they were legal, and I could buy scuffs easy. My next "upgrade" was 25lb 17x9.5 Corvette wheels that I bought for $130/set because they were curbed, scrapped up, and ugly as hell. Most of my wheels now are curbed rashed street car stuff. Sell the BFGs and buy scuffs. I never bought a new tire until I had enough contingency money to pay for them. Before that it was $20-$50 for whatever scuff I could get people to sell then run them until they cord bad. I still buy scuffs when I get the chance, that way I'm not burning up fresh tires at lightly attended events.

 

Talk to any top teams in any form of motorsport and they'll tell you to run the freshest tires you can afford. If you can't afford new ones, buy some junk that's only got a few flat spots in it!

[Grizlbits]

Slicks for AIX? Seriously...wait, this is suppose to save us money right? Have you priced a set of Michelin slicks because I have! Oh, then we need different wheels because all the slicks really want a 12” width, or they are to small and you burn them off, again, I know because I’ve done it.

 

Paul, There is a proposal for the 12 inch wheels in the rear for that very reason. The slicks are more durable for high HP, don't drop after 4 sesions like the DOT's do, and last longer than the 25-30 minutes that the Dot's last. There are also a TON of 18" take offs from numberous series that are cheap as used. Yes brand new ones are expensive, but $ per session compared to DOT's (fast lap to fast lap) will be less expensive.

 

Chris

[robbodleimages]

Rob, your worried about buying a set of wheels and tires?

 

Try building a $75,000 car then have the class pulled out from under you. .

 

i think i said, dont mess with aix. the reason i brought up the wheels and tires is that it seems that i am lazy or somehow trying to make an excuse to explain why i am too chicken or something to race ai.

 

i was simply saying that my car came with three good sets of 18x10's and i have an enduro co driver that pays me in sticker bfg's. and that i dont have the budget in this economy to get ai wheels for this car and the spec tire.

 

when times comes to replace that stuff, i would go ai with it. i am realistic. tj could beat me with my car maxxed out anyway.

 

i fully understand what you are saying.

[robbodleimages]

When I first got into AI, I ran on 16x8s because it's what I had, they were legal, and I could buy scuffs easy. My next "upgrade" was 25lb 17x9.5 Corvette wheels that I bought for $130/set because they were curbed, scrapped up, and ugly as hell. Most of my wheels now are curbed rashed street car stuff. Sell the BFGs and buy scuffs.:

 

TJ, i am with you. Ive tried to sell the BFG's. I sold one set of the $1200 tires for $800. I would buy a set of scrubs right now. 275/35-18 toyo ra1's are not standard fare for sale new or scrubbed. You make it sound so easy. Its not. Thats the point. I am a pretty good shopper for hard to find stuff. 18" toyo mustang tires are hard to find. The last i saw for sale were two that i could only buy if i bought the 2 245/18's that went with them.

[nape]

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/pts/2110393309.html - Two used ones

 

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/pts/2075172257.html - Two new ones for super cheap.

 

The Detroit ad could be a real steal, he said $75/tire in his other CL ad. Offer to pay more plus pay shipping if he doesn't want to ship.

 

As far as tire deals, the last two 275/40/17 RA1s I bought came with two 235/40/17s. Bought them for $125/set with one track day, sold the 235s for $80 net. They were 2006 date code, but who cares? They suck right out of the mold so they'll still be the same in 5 years.

 

How bad do you want to race in American Iron? I want it really bad.

[robbodleimages]

when i get home from this trip, i will call about them both.

[pbr96]

Slicks for AIX? Seriously...wait, this is suppose to save us money right? Have you priced a set of Michelin slicks because I have! Oh, then we need different wheels because all the slicks really want a 12” width, or they are to small and you burn them off, again, I know because I’ve done it.

 

Paul, There is a proposal for the 12 inch wheels in the rear for that very reason. The slicks are more durable for high HP, don't drop after 4 sesions like the DOT's do, and last longer than the 25-30 minutes that the Dot's last. There are also a TON of 18" take offs from numberous series that are cheap as used. Yes brand new ones are expensive, but $ per session compared to DOT's (fast lap to fast lap) will be less expensive.

 

Chris

 

No slicks, no slicks, no slicks, if you want to run slicks, run SU. The tire is one thing that makes sense for AIX. Yes you can buy 18" take offs and depending on the compound run 3-4 sessions or 3 laps! This is one more item that drives the cost up because if someone shows up with stickers every event, you will too, why would you want to run take offs and not be competitive, oh and buy wheels. Again I suggest no changes for AIX.

 

And for anyone without the big horsepower, this is another good argument to leave it alone. If you can't make the tires last 25-30 minutes, why is that my problem when I can. Make 1500 hp for all I care, you still need to balance the tire wear and for someone that has less power, this is actually a good equalizer.

 

It's all about balance and yes some have more than others and it will always be that way. Changing the tire rule to slicks actually increases the separation between the levels of cars in the class.

 

I think slicks are a bad idea just like the horsepower cap. And for the record, I have a tire deal and can get all the free slicks I want, but I don't think it's good for the class.

 

Paul Brown

[svttim]

Slicks for AIX? Seriously...wait, this is suppose to save us money right? Have you priced a set of Michelin slicks because I have! Oh, then we need different wheels because all the slicks really want a 12” width, or they are to small and you burn them off, again, I know because I’ve done it.

 

Paul, There is a proposal for the 12 inch wheels in the rear for that very reason. The slicks are more durable for high HP, don't drop after 4 sesions like the DOT's do, and last longer than the 25-30 minutes that the Dot's last. There are also a TON of 18" take offs from numberous series that are cheap as used. Yes brand new ones are expensive, but $ per session compared to DOT's (fast lap to fast lap) will be less expensive.

 

Chris

 

No slicks, no slicks, no slicks, if you want to run slicks, run SU. The tire is one thing that makes sense for AIX. Yes you can buy 18" take offs and depending on the compound run 3-4 sessions or 3 laps! This is one more item that drives the cost up because if someone shows up with stickers every event, you will too, why would you want to run take offs and not be competitive, oh and buy wheels. Again I suggest no changes for AIX.

 

And for anyone without the big horsepower, this is another good argument to leave it alone. If you can't make the tires last 25-30 minutes, why is that my problem when I can. Make 1500 hp for all I care, you still need to balance the tire wear and for someone that has less power, this is actually a good equalizer.

 

It's all about balance and yes some have more than others and it will always be that way. Changing the tire rule to slicks actually increases the separation between the levels of cars in the class.

 

I think slicks are a bad idea just like the horsepower cap. And for the record, I have a tire deal and can get all the free slicks I want, but I don't think it's good for the class.

 

Paul Brown

 

Just so I understand Paul, you dont want slicks

[05 Ross]

I agree with Paul that allowing slicks in AIX is wrong, people that are reluctant to run AIX because of cost will be further pushed away. Chris's comments about a slick being more durable are only true for a hard compound endurance type slick tyre. Soft slicks are incredably fast and would be the choice of most racers at an important race. I have first hand recent experence with a series that runs soft slicks on 600 rwhp cars, they are $2000 a set, we get 3 or 4 20-30min sessions.

 

Ross Murray (done with AI considering AIX)

[edhunter]

Stop the insanity, leave it the $#^k alone. No changes for AIX and anyone running ABS add 100lbs to base weight which is not part of the “power-to-weight ratio” and call it good. That’s what was done in the “pro” ranks and it worked good, some people ran ABS and some didn’t. This "tweaking" over months is ridiculous! The frustration, uncertainly and bickering drives more people away than the actually rules do!

 

The best post on this thread, IMHO....

[swhiteh3]

Stop the insanity, leave it the $#^k alone. No changes for AIX and anyone running ABS add 100lbs to base weight which is not part of the “power-to-weight ratio” and call it good. That’s what was done in the “pro” ranks and it worked good, some people ran ABS and some didn’t. This "tweaking" over months is ridiculous! The frustration, uncertainly and bickering drives more people away than the actually rules do!

 

The best post on this thread, IMHO....

Ed & Paul-

I wrote up an entire set of rules proposals in 2009 allowing several of the driver aids we're talking about, like ABS, to be used with a weight penalty just as you mentioned here. They were submitted to the powers that be, for the record, in the official rules-change format. The idea was that this "offset" was announced on the sticker on their windshield, along with the power/weight calculation for AI. You could run ABS, with an offset. You could run a set of $5000 remote-canister shocks, with an offset. There were four or five areas at the time where I thought these offsets made sense. You want to run a straight cut gearbox because it's already in the car, fine - take a 100# offset. I was told by a few people it would make things complicated. Hey, if you can't take the weight of your car and do the math to add 100# to that weight - you're probably not smart enough to be racing. This would allow people who want to bring a newer car in to not have to tear their car apart so much, and it works since typically these cars are heavier anyway. My suggestion at the time was that all these "offsets" be the same, so that you would simply have to declare "2" offsets, for instance. A car that is more traditionally legal would need zero offsets... I thought it worked very well to accomodate everyone's arguments.

[Red Tornado]

Some great points.

 

My $.02 if worth even that..haha

 

- Leave AIX a DOT tire based class. Makes driving and suspension matter most. No slicks. And this comes from someone who will be running pzero slicks in WC so clearly would be easiest for me personally but I think goes against all the class has stood for.

 

- AI - penalty weight of no more than 100lbs for abs. Anything more in some of the new heavy cars may just be dangerous. My car would weigh like 3,800lbs than if a 200lb penalty. Forget abs advantage at that weight.

 

- AI power to weight - yes in favor of a 8.7 ratio in both rwhp and trq (make it easy) but not for a few years to be fair to everyone.

 

Last but not least I do appreciate the focus the directors have had and the desire to get feedback. Yes the changes will be change but for the long term it will help the class to do it slow but smartly like they are.

 

Also a random thought is have a group of feedback or expanded assistant directors for rules who have run at least 20 races in AI or AIX over past 3 years. This way you really get the folks who have passion and run the class often.