2011 Rules Update & Leadership Team meeting minutes

[AIX9]

It seems strange to me that AIX people say no slicks, no abs, no traction control and then turn around and say they dont want any HP limits. This is EXTREME as I keep hearing so why are there limits on anything. Oh yeah thats right to control costs because we can all afford 1000hp engines and then having to upgrade everything else in the car to take that kind of horsepower. We can still be an extreme class with an 800 or 700 hp limit. Unlimited engines and budgets belong in SU. Maybe hp/wt ratio of 5-1 or 4-1. Cant please everyone and there is no perfect solution. And we cant blame the guys who built these 1000hp+ monster motors because they worked within the current rules. But thats just me.

[Glenn]

Something in AIX needs to change..... cause I don't see any growth going on.

 

The only AIX cars here in Tx are those who don't want the hassle of a dyno. Most are 100% AI legal except a dyno sheet. So from here where I stand, AIX is dead. I would rather see limits put in place than see the class disapear all together.

[tacovini]

Good dialog guys. We should have something out for you very, very soon. We have finished slogging & sloshing thru the debates and the final rules are being reviewed by HQ. I will put out a "State of the Union Address" to coincide with the rules to explain where we were, how we got here (what took so long) and where we are going. As I did last year, I'll give a narrative "Director's Cut" to explain some of the thoughts of the rules changes and non-changes.

 

Thanks for your patience folks....we are going to open up silly season a lot earlier this year!

 

-=- Todd

[svttim]

Good dialog guys. We should have something out for you very, very soon. We have finished slogging & sloshing thru the debates and the final rules are being reviewed by HQ. I will put out a "State of the Union Address" to coincide with the rules to explain where we were, how we got here (what took so long) and where we are going. As I did last year, I'll give a narrative "Director's Cut" to explain some of the thoughts of the rules changes and non-changes.

 

Thanks for your patience folks....we are going to open up silly season a lot earlier this year!

 

-=- Todd

 

Todd, do you get any sleep at all

[marshallmosty]

Good dialog guys. We should have something out for you very, very soon. We have finished slogging & sloshing thru the debates and the final rules are being reviewed by HQ. I will put out a "State of the Union Address" to coincide with the rules to explain where we were, how we got here (what took so long) and where we are going. As I did last year, I'll give a narrative "Director's Cut" to explain some of the thoughts of the rules changes and non-changes.

 

Thanks for your patience folks....we are going to open up silly season a lot earlier this year!

 

-=- Todd

Todd,

Thanks for this... and allowing me to chew on your ear for 30 minutes the other day... My car is on the trailer and "ready" for 2011... We will see what she puts on the rollers next weekend.

[D Algozine]

It appears that the 2011 rules are in the can, but I wanted to comment on Scott and Chris's remarks regarding ABS and weight penalty. I'm not sure the stock ABS systems warrants a penalty. I think the race ABS systems should get added weight. The race systems are a significant advantage over the stock, and therefore; a huge imporovement over non ABS. I'm assuming that the rule set that Scott references are pro series where all ABS systems are purpose built race systems. The inclusion of the race system has further complicated matters. Now you should evaluate the level of each system.

[Grizlbits]

Dave, the problem with the Ford ABS systems is that they look exactly alike. I know they have a different number on them. However, the stock system can be reprogrammed to use the race setups (not that anyone who works at Ford races and has access to these kind of things ).

 

I agree the stock ABS is not that much of an advantage in the dry. If it isn't that big of a deal, it should be no big deal to take it out of your car. If it is, they will be put the weight in and suck it up. Watch the video from Nat's and Deans' car. He didn't pass much on the straightaway; but the braking zone is a different story. Watch the video. Advantage Ford Racing ABS. So you want to pass Dean and you don't have the Ford racing ABS? Good Luck!

[supermac]

Dave, the problem with the Ford ABS systems is that they look exactly alike. I know they have a different number on them. However, the stock system can be reprogrammed to use the race setups (not that anyone who works at Ford races and has access to these kind of things ).

 

I agree the stock ABS is not that much of an advantage in the dry. If it isn't that big of a deal, it should be no big deal to take it out of your car. If it is, they will be put the weight in and suck it up. Watch the video from Nat's and Deans' car. He didn't pass much on the straightaway; but the braking zone is a different story. Watch the video. Advantage Ford Racing ABS. So you want to pass Dean and you don't have the Ford racing ABS? Good Luck!

 

A great argument to getting rid of ABS completely, it is just too hard to enforce. Probably impossible.

Get rid of it. For the record my car has it and I will gladly pull it out!

We as a series just don't need it.

It creates uneeded friction between the haves and the have nots.

[svttim]

Dave, the problem with the Ford ABS systems is that they look exactly alike. I know they have a different number on them. However, the stock system can be reprogrammed to use the race setups (not that anyone who works at Ford races and has access to these kind of things ).

 

I agree the stock ABS is not that much of an advantage in the dry. If it isn't that big of a deal, it should be no big deal to take it out of your car. If it is, they will be put the weight in and suck it up. Watch the video from Nat's and Deans' car. He didn't pass much on the straightaway; but the braking zone is a different story. Watch the video. Advantage Ford Racing ABS. So you want to pass Dean and you don't have the Ford racing ABS? Good Luck!

 

 

And here i thought Dean was a good racer

[Grizlbits]

And here i thought Dean was a good racer

 

Dean is an excellent and talented racer. That being said, it will be hard to pass him because his ABS will not allow him to make big mistakes under braking. I don't believe I saw him make any mistakes anywhere else either.

[D Algozine]

And here i thought Dean was a good racer

 

Dean is an excellent and talented racer. That being said, it will be hard to pass him because his ABS will not allow him to make big mistakes under braking. I don't believe I saw him make any mistakes anywhere else either.

 

Chris,

Definately agree, Dean is incredibility talented.

I would go one step further and say, it isn't necessarily about not making a mistake under braking. It's more about getting 99% out of the tires and brake system on nearly every corner. That is unlikely to be achieveable with a stock system. A stock system prevents luck up, but doesn't make the adjustments that the race system do. I'm pulling this out of my a$$, but doesn't a race system modulate each corner indivually about 100 times per second, and makes the correct adjustment every singel time? I got my a$$ kicked a few times under heavy braking by Dean in 09 nationals. Same with Rusty, I am assume he had the same system. Yah, may be the drivers, but I saw several others get kicked also. Still they may be just that good, but I'm pretty sure those systems helped.

[robbodleimages]

the abs in dean's car was a street car/gt500 abs not the racing abs.

 

the "race system" ford has is the gt500 abs programmed for stickier tires. thats all the difference there is.

dave, race systems may make the adjustments that you are talking about, but the ford system isnt like that.

 

correct me if i am wrong, but activating the abs creates slower, not faster lap times.

[Glenn]

the abs in dean's car was a street car/gt500 abs not the racing abs.

 

correct me if i am wrong, but activating the abs creates slower, not faster lap times.

 

Faster lap time for guys who can't threshold brake w/out it. If Joe Dumb Shit knows all he has to do is just stand on the brakes from his braking marker to turn-in, he knows he will be able to run X lap time. If his ABS system is more advanced than the other guys (who is doing the same), guess who is a "better" driver?

[Grizlbits]

correct me if i am wrong, but activating the abs creates slower, not faster lap times.

 

Uh, yeah, I am sure that's why he installed it. Maybe he put it on to drive the resale of his cars up when he sells them. You know, like car dealers add rustproofing and pinstriping to make more money.

 

Talk to anyone who uses the new systems. Actually, that may be hard. Most of them know it is such an advantage they keep it pretty quiet online.

 

That is sarcasm if you didn't notice.

[nape]

I don't believe I saw him make any mistakes anywhere else either.

 

Pffft, you can't see the forest from the trees. He made the ultimate mistake, he races a Ford.

 

Old Pontiacs: No fuel injection, no ABS, no rev limiter, no problems.

[tacovini]

Good discussion, good debate however I think you guys will find that the answer will still not lie in the 2011 AI ruleset.

I spent most of today trackside gathering contacts/info/data with a Pratt & Miller ABS Camaro, and more info is still needed before any firm decisions or changes are made.

I'm off to Daytona this week and will continue to work the ABS issue with some of the insight learned, for both the Ford and the Chevy camps (Chrysler too if they are there!)

 

As my mother would say...."Fight nice, Boys!"

 

-=- Todd

[svttim]

Just read a bit on the Pratt and Miller system. Interesting, they lost a wheel sensor and the care was undriveable.

[supermac]

Any ideas on cost for this system? What does the Ford system cost?

I don't see how this is going to even out, if someone would layout a plan that is fair for both sides, great. I do not believe that is possible.

Get rid of ABS or add a significant weight penalty, say 200lbs?

In my mind telling me to go buy a system deigned for completely different car and completely different tire that is probably gonna cost at least 5k is not a viable solution.

I would have just as much luck trying to make the Fr500 system work on my car.

I realize that Ford or the guys who have chosen to drive them are not at fault but when you have factory developed ABS and Aero. These cars become a serious advantage.

It will be the fault of NASA if the don't do something to stop Spec FR500?

And no Todd the sky is not falling, I sat down with four top GM racers last night including the only guy who has come close to these guys (Tommy) and we are completely discouraged about this.

Tommy is considering a new mustang, is that the direction you want this heading? A died in the wool GM guy switching?

[Grizlbits]

Any ideas on cost for this system? What does the Ford system cost?

 

The Ford system is less than $1000 in parts I believe. But then you have to get a sensor and tone ring on each corner of your car. It is in the Ford racing catalog if you need better numbers. The hard part may be the tuning with master cylinder sizes and balance of masters versus caliper piston area to keep them balanced.

[supermac]

Any ideas on cost for this system? What does the Ford system cost?

 

The Ford system is less than $1000 in parts I believe. But then you have to get a sensor and tone ring on each corner of your car. It is in the Ford racing catalog if you need better numbers. The hard part may be the tuning with master cylinder sizes and balance of masters versus caliper piston area to keep them balanced.

 

Is that a stand alone system? Or does it require being tied into the mustang computer?

And what do you think it would cost to have someone put the sensors and tone rings on my car and then balance the master cylinder and calipers? These are things that are above my pay grade. So I would be forced to first find someone with the knowledge to do it then pay them to do it!

Not getting after you Chris, just pointing out some other costs involved in that system.

[stevepoe]

I sat down with four top GM racers last night including the only guy who has come close to these guys (Tommy) and we are completely discouraged about this.

Tommy is considering a new mustang, is that the direction you want this heading? A died in the wool GM guy switching?

 

 

no offense but that is total b.s. TJ In his old firechicken can give the new 5.0 with abs a run for the money any day . At nationals a older fox mustang coupe from CA was all over dean giving him all he could handle. I mean on the bumper and was a solid 2nd place car had he not been dq'd for a oversight of a 10" wheel he was running.

 

What your saying is just not true .

 

I've watched personally both times at nationals with the coupe and in great lakes events with TJ and if TJ continues to think outside the box as he does I look for that firechicken to be on the podium Someplace at nationals in 2011 .

 

AI is not for the cheap anymore. That is why we have cmc2

Edited January 4, 2011 by Guest

[stevepoe]

Is that a stand alone system? Or does it require being tied into the mustang computer?

And what do you think it would cost to have someone put the sensors and tone rings on my car and then balance the master cylinder and calipers? These are things that are above my pay grade. So I would be forced to first find someone with the knowledge to do it then pay them to do it!

Not getting after you Chris, just pointing out some other costs involved in that system.

 

 

it can be made to be stand alone. it doesn't need anything from the ecu.

[supermac]

I sat down with four top GM racers last night including the only guy who has come close to these guys (Tommy) and we are completely discouraged about this.

Tommy is considering a new mustang, is that the direction you want this heading? A died in the wool GM guy switching?

 

 

no offense but that is total b.s. TJ In his old firechicken can give the new 5.0 with abs a run for the money any day . At nationals a older fox mustang coupe from CA was all over dean giving him all he could handle. I mean on the bumper and was a solid 2nd place car had he not been dq'd for a oversight of a 10" wheel he was running.

 

What your saying is just not true .

 

I've watched personally both times at nationals with the coupe and in great lakes events with TJ and if TJ continues to think outside the box as he does I look for that firechicken to be on the podium Someplace at nationals in 2011 .

 

AI is not for the cheap anymore. That is why we have cmc2

 

TJ has never been to Nationals, I was refering to nationals, so it is not BS.

I do not believe someone who was DQ for non compliance should be brought up in the conversation, there is no telling how he would have finished given a completely legal car. And I saw the video, I wouldn't call what I saw, as being "all over Dean"

I believe TJ is one of the few people that could make a mustang set up work, "IF" it could be made to work on a GM.

I was saying that the money and time involved to make a comparable GM system "work" is not even close to equal.

 

Don't make it a money deal Steve, I found a flood damaged GT for 3500 that I could easily make into a FR500 for less than 30K. It is not about money it is about building competitive fields and cars (from all makes).

Like I said Tommy is considering a Mustang, he should, and I am encouraging him to do so.

If seeing all Ford podiums at Nationals is the goal, then great, NASA is succeeding, I don't believe that is what they or anyone for that matter is after? After 5 years and all Ford podiums I guess the results speak for themselves.

[D Algozine]

I sat down with four top GM racers last night including the only guy who has come close to these guys (Tommy) and we are completely discouraged about this.

Tommy is considering a new mustang, is that the direction you want this heading? A died in the wool GM guy switching?

 

 

no offense but that is total b.s. TJ In his old firechicken can give the new 5.0 with abs a run for the money any day . At nationals a older fox mustang coupe from CA was all over dean giving him all he could handle. I mean on the bumper and was a solid 2nd place car had he not been dq'd for a oversight of a 10" wheel he was running.

 

What your saying is just not true .

 

I've watched personally both times at nationals with the coupe and in great lakes events with TJ and if TJ continues to think outside the box as he does I look for that firechicken to be on the podium Someplace at nationals in 2011 .

 

AI is not for the cheap anymore. That is why we have cmc2

 

Everything you said may be true, however, Putnam has only one real breaking zone in the whole 1.8 mile track, and it's not even a heavy brake zone.

[stevepoe]

I sat down with four top GM racers last night including the only guy who has come close to these guys (Tommy) and we are completely discouraged about this.

Tommy is considering a new mustang, is that the direction you want this heading? A died in the wool GM guy switching?

 

 

no offense but that is total b.s. TJ In his old firechicken can give the new 5.0 with abs a run for the money any day . At nationals a older fox mustang coupe from CA was all over dean giving him all he could handle. I mean on the bumper and was a solid 2nd place car had he not been dq'd for a oversight of a 10" wheel he was running.

 

What your saying is just not true .

 

I've watched personally both times at nationals with the coupe and in great lakes events with TJ and if TJ continues to think outside the box as he does I look for that firechicken to be on the podium Someplace at nationals in 2011 .

 

AI is not for the cheap anymore. That is why we have cmc2

 

TJ has never been to Nationals, I was refering to nationals, so it is not BS.

I do not believe someone who was DQ for non compliance should be brought up in the conversation, there is no telling how he would have finished given a completely legal car. And I saw the video, I wouldn't call what I saw, as being "all over Dean"

I believe TJ is one of the few people that could make a mustang set up work, "IF" it could be made to work on a GM.

I was saying that the money and time involved to make a comparable GM system "work" is not even close to equal.

 

Don't make it a money deal Steve, I found a flood damaged GT for 3500 that I could easily make into a FR500 for less than 30K. It is not about money it is about building competitive fields and cars (from all makes).

Like I said Tommy is considering a Mustang, he should, and I am encouraging him to do so.

If seeing all Ford podiums at Nationals is the goal, then great, NASA is succeeding, I don't believe that is what they or anyone for that matter is after? After 5 years and all Ford podiums I guess the results speak for themselves.

 

yes TJ didn't make nationals but do some research on the national championship winning car vs TJ'S Times in the great lakes region . His is right there with him without abs.

 

 

Keep in mind that iT's probably a 5-1 ratio of non ford vs ford in AI and has been that way since I've been around it since 2003. And that was way before abs was a factor. Ford has always been the dominate car Count in AI .

 

I wasn't trying to make it a money deal I was just saying that the average cars running in ai now days are more money then years past. AI is evolving and getting more reconized . The competition is way more then years past and is only going to get better. Showing up with a average car is just going to get it done anymore without talent and a lot of thinking outside the box.

 

2011 nationals will probably go to a mustang again . watch great lakes this year and mid ohio track records. It's going to drop again and again . I look to see 12-15 ai cars every race this year in our region.

 

knowing who is building cars and of the people I know that are building they are all building mustangs and bringing talent along with them.

 

also keep in mind that is just is not the car . Dean is a veteran driver with pro racing in his resume along with the know how of what works and doesn't work. That itself is huge .