Ford Racing's Boss 302S Ready to Race AI in 2011

[Aaron B]

I think they are building them here in MI?

[pbr96]

No, Tiger is not building the productions cars. That is being done in the Dearborn area.

 

We are just happy to be involved as a supplier on the program and from what I have seen so far, it's a pretty damn good car with real race parts. I know the prototype that we built has surprised me, and real tires are cool too!

 

As for the power to weight being high for AI, you can get a hand held tuner with an AI calibration that puts the power around 340 at the wheels. This isn't a final or confirmed number any means, but the discussions have been that it's easier to tune them down for AI than adding a bunch more for WC or selling the car without enough.

 

I'll be happy to share the info I know, or am allowed to when I can.

 

PB

[Red Tornado]

Yes that is the rumor. You will have a World Challenge GTS une for both power and for the ABS (remeber we will be running pzero race slicks in that series) and an American Iron tune which will cut rwhp and adjust abs for the toyo's.

 

Dean is pretty much building me a duplicate of the Boss 302s but I am sure it will be better and faster

 

It is nice to see the factory support and we should have some big fields this year.

[robbodleimages]

is this going to call for an abs rule change? maybe i missed a change, but currently the ford racing abs module is not AI legal.

[gbrown8439]

is this going to call for an abs rule change? maybe i missed a change, but currently the ford racing abs module is not AI legal.

 

Nope, the FRPP ABS has been legal for a year now.

 

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into newer and older cars within the

vehicle’s parent company is allowed. (i.e. – Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such

as FR500.)

[robbodleimages]

alrighty then. one less thing for me to worry about then.

[D Algozine]

Yes that is the rumor. You will have a World Challenge GTS une for both power and for the ABS (remeber we will be running pzero race slicks in that series) and an American Iron tune which will cut rwhp and adjust abs for the toyo's.Dean is pretty much building me a duplicate of the Boss 302s but I am sure it will be better and faster

 

It is nice to see the factory support and we should have some big fields this year.

 

My understanding of the ABS rules, is that you can use a stock ABS and we are allowed to use the FR500 system. I don't see how modifying or tuning of any system is allowed. Am I missing somehting?

 

 

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into newer and older cars within the

vehicle’s parent company is allowed. (i.e. – Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such

as FR500.)

[robbodleimages]

i would say that "Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such

as FR500" any includes adjustable. its not any except.

[gbrown8439]

It's my understanding that the only difference between the GT500 and the FR500S system is the programing. If Ford is offering the different programs I would think it would fit the rule since it would be a Ford produced piece.

 

Does it really matter if you are changing an ABS module or just the program on the module?

[D Algozine]

It's my understanding that the only difference between the GT500 and the FR500S system is the programing. If Ford is offering the different programs I would think it would fit the rule since it would be a Ford produced piece.

 

Does it really matter if you are changing an ABS module or just the program on the module?

 

I think is does matter. You're either able to modify the system or you're not. If you are able to modify and there are no parameters, then it could be wide open. I don't think we should have open mods on ABS systems. FYI, I raised all these questions and more when ABS and the FR500 system were being debated. Below is the entire Brake section.

 

 

7.8 Brakes

7.8.1 Water cooling or other liquid cooling of brakes is not allowed. Air cooling is both allowed and

recommended.

7.8.2 Brake rotor friction surfaces must be iron with a maximum diameter of 14 inches.

7.8.3 Any OEM Anti-lock brake system (ABS) is allowed which includes ABS valve body and

electronics as delivered from the factory.

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into newer and older cars within the

vehicle’s parent company is allowed. (i.e. – Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such

as FR500. Camaros may use any GM produced ABS unit such as Corvette Z06 etc.

7.8.5 AIX anti-lock brake systems (ABS) are unrestricted but must use units from an OEM or OEM

equivalent. Please consult with your local series director if you have questions.

7.8.6 Non-OEM ABS units or ABS units not available for public commercial sale are prohibited.

7.8.7 Use of a proportioning valve in conjunction with ABS is allowed.

7.8.8 Calipers are unrestricted.

[gbrown8439]

 

I think is does matter. You're either able to modify the system or you're not. If you are able to modify and there are no parameters, then it could be wide open. I don't think we should have open mods on ABS systems. FYI, I raised all these questions and more when ABS and the FR500 system were being debated. Below is the entire Brake section.

 

 

7.8 Brakes

7.8.1 Water cooling or other liquid cooling of brakes is not allowed. Air cooling is both allowed and

recommended.

7.8.2 Brake rotor friction surfaces must be iron with a maximum diameter of 14 inches.

7.8.3 Any OEM Anti-lock brake system (ABS) is allowed which includes ABS valve body and

electronics as delivered from the factory.

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into newer and older cars within the

vehicle’s parent company is allowed. (i.e. – Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such

as FR500. Camaros may use any GM produced ABS unit such as Corvette Z06 etc.

7.8.5 AIX anti-lock brake systems (ABS) are unrestricted but must use units from an OEM or OEM

equivalent. Please consult with your local series director if you have questions.

7.8.6 Non-OEM ABS units or ABS units not available for public commercial sale are prohibited.

7.8.7 Use of a proportioning valve in conjunction with ABS is allowed.

7.8.8 Calipers are unrestricted.

 

Yes, but I'm not modifying it Ford is.

 

Right now you have the GT, GT500, and FR500 ABS module. They are all pretty much the same hardware just different programing in them. You can plug the module into any 05+ Mustang you want and it will work.

Having a different program for the intended use of the car is nothing new and it's perfectly legal.

 

Changing the program wouldn't really be any different than if Ford made two different modules with different part numbers on them, it would just be simpler and cheaper.

[robbodleimages]

at present the frpp unit appears to be an either-or choice in programming. one program is for AI racing and the other program won't work for AI racing. The device is not an advantage.

 

it also appears that one program is for grand am/world challenge racing and the other program specifically for american iron racing. now, maybe its just me, but if ford is sold on doing this by nasa or offered to do this to support NASA/AI racing I dont see NASA then outlawing the part. Its something of a slap in the face.

[D Algozine]

at present the frpp unit appears to be an either-or choice in programming. one program is for AI racing and the other program won't work for AI racing. The device is not an advantage.

 

it also appears that one program is for grand am/world challenge racing and the other program specifically for american iron racing. now, maybe its just me, but if ford is sold on doing this by nasa or offered to do this to support NASA/AI racing I dont see NASA then outlawing the part. Its something of a slap in the face.

 

Not being a techno guy, my interpretation of Chris's statement about tuning the ABS for AI was that an individual or a shop would or could tune the system. This is all magial wizzard stuff to me. I promoted no ABS in AI, so this is miles over my head. Does GM offer such a race system? And if so, where and how much?

[robbodleimages]

i know you are anti abs.

i reread the thread and saw nothing in chris's announcement that referred to abs and nothing later in the thread. paul brown did say that the module was legal. what chris said was that the car would come with a tune for the engine for wc and for ai. that the abs module would come with a tune for wc and for ai. essensial the fr500c program and the gt500 program.

 

i saw nowhere that the abs module would be tunable. i read that you had a choice of two programs.

[D Algozine]

i know you are anti abs.

i reread the thread and saw nothing in chris's announcement that referred to abs and nothing later in the thread. paul brown did say that the module was legal. what chris said was that the car would come with a tune for the engine for wc and for ai. that the abs module would come with a tune for wc and for ai. essensial the fr500c program and the gt500 program.

 

i saw nowhere that the abs module would be tunable. i read that you had a choice of two programs.

 

Look at my post at the top of this page and read the the quote that I included from Chis's post with a few words that I underlined and bold. The words "adjust" and "tune" are used in the same sentence.

You're not going to take me out to the wood shed and make me pick out a switch over that?

[robbodleimages]

ok....my understanding is there are two programs for the brake module. fr500c and gt500.

[gbrown8439]

Look at my post at the top of this page and read the the quote that I included from Chis's post with a few words that I underlined and bold. The words "adjust" and "tune" are used in the same sentence.

You're not going to take me out to the wood shed and make me pick out a switch over that?

 

Yes, and if it's supplied by the manufacturer (Ford) it fits the rules.

I'll say it again, this would not be any different than unplugging a WC module and plugging in an AI module if they decided to make it that way.

[D Algozine]

Perhaps my message is getting lost in translation. I've conceded that I miss understood Chris's statement. I wrongly thought that the system was infinately tuneable and adjustable to whom ever had the knowledge and means. Again, I don't thrive in the technical side.

However, you guys got me back on the soap box. Quick recap. We have a highly developed system, which has the resources of one of the largest automobile companies in the world, with top notch engineers designing, testing and tuning one or more of these ABS systems specifially for racing, that is only applicable to maybe 20% of the current AI cars. Remeber this is amateur racing, not factory backed Pro or semi pro. If you don't have or aren't getting an S197 Mustang, you can't bolt these systems on and take advantage of all they have to offer. Does the AI seies really need to make additional concessions for the S197 car to make it more competitive? I for one would hate for the perception to be that you NEED the new Mustang and all that Ford Racing has to offer in order to win. Simply, I just don't think it's necessary or good for the entire series. It is as much about the perception as anything else.

I read the AI mission statement and I see aftermarket involvement and grassroots ingenuity. Ford has many great parts and certainly is part of the aftermarket, but questionablely higher end race components don't fit the spirit of the series. So, if Ford and all it has to offer can develop and sell an AI legal ABS system, then why not open it up to any race shop or indiviual who has the means? Am I the only one that thinks this?

No this isn't the magic bullet or the end to all non S197 cars, but it's an unecessary advantage.

[robbodleimages]

we all have our points of view. i think the s197 mustang has severely limited the need for aftermarket parts. the suspension work required for an 05 gt is significantly less than a 95 gt. at the same time todd seems to have altered the original path by refining the rules in order to keep costs down.

 

keeping cost down flies in the face of the original aftermarket heavy atmosphere. the 2011 mustang gt is a factory delivered 9.5 to 1 AI package. strip the interior and put in the safety gear and you are ready to go.

 

times change. i am sure maximum motorsports is not happy with this trend. thats life. in 2005 when i started racing a 1999 Mustang or something similar was the competitive platform. in 2011 the 2005 car is as old and available as the 99 car was when i started.

[D Algozine]

Rob,

I totally agree. The S197 is a great platform, and needs very little to become a good AI car. However, the new Camaro and Challenger appear to need some development help to be competitive. Lets work to get those car up to speed. The new Mustang appears to be doing very well without any additional help.

[robbodleimages]

as far as i can tell the challenger is just too heavy. is that basically why the camaro is also not scene with us yet or is it just too expensive so far?

[firehawkclone]

I'll say it again....... It's a mustang rule set being tuned by mustand drivers who are making the rules.

 

This is turning into SM(spec mustang)

[D Algozine]

as far as i can tell the challenger is just too heavy. is that basically why the camaro is also not scene with us yet or is it just too expensive so far?

 

Maybe, I don't really know, but do you think the S197 needs more concessions, or any exclusive parts over any other platform? Its already proven to be one of the best starting platform.

 

Unfortunetly, I think it has much to do with Johns statements;

I'll say it again....... It's a mustang rule set being tuned by mustand drivers who are making the rules.

 

This is turning into SM(spec mustang)

 

These concessions are supposed to be in the interest of increasing car counts, but I really don't think that is going to be the long term effect. One could make an agruement for just the opposite (long term). Equal competition among the various platforms is far more important then allowing a few guys with the means to race the Grand AM or Mustang Challenge cars.

And if you don't think Ford Racing's ABS system isn't a significant advantage, then your uninformed. Watch guys that have it in the heavy braking zones and then watch those guys race in the rain. If your going to allow a race ABS system, then just open it up to any system. Don't make it exclusive to one platform. I suppose it's great that Ford is building some great race parts, but I think it may be great for Ford, and maybe not everything is necessarily great for AI.

Amateur grassroots racing, not factory backed pro racing. Big difference.

[UBR]

I'll say it again....... It's a mustang rule set being tuned by mustand drivers who are making the rules.

I think a lot of this goes back to manufacturer support and interest in road racing. Ford Racing and FRPP are actively involved. There are many others. TRD, BMW- Motorwerks, Mazda. Honda paid the entry fee for every Honda Challenge car at Nats this year.

 

I haven't heard anything from GM Racing.. That's right, there isn't one. And does Direct Connection even exist? If so, what's the last thing they did for road racing?

 

Is AI Ford focused? Absolutely! Because Ford is interested in road racing. Sorry that the other "American" (and that has a very cloudy definition now) manufacturers aren't. Probably out of survival, but GM and Fiat are interested in making commercially attractive cars. Sadly. those cars are pigs and not serious "performance" cars. Ford has a much different focus. At least for the Mustang.

 

j

[robbodleimages]

dave, honestly, I don't care that much. I am doing this for fun. My car is pretty hooked up and I am comfortable with it. Meanwhile I am not going to be beating Dean Martin anytime soon.

 

Meanwhile, I dont have the money to be reengineering the car by changing the brakes and such. I am NOT a person with means. I have no more money invested in my race car than most others have here. That includes the guys that use their own professional skills to do work themselves that I have to pay significant dollars for.

 

Had I not sold it I would have far more dollars invested in a 99 Bondurant Cobra than I have sunk into my 500C.

 

The rules set in general allows people to spend wild amounts of money to reengineer their cars if they want to. Seems to me just leaving a part from the factory on the car is a lot less to ask.

 

But we all have our POV.

 

As to the S197 killing car count in AI in the future. It might kill Fox body car count. But were AI around in the 70's and 80's wouldnt the Fox and SN95 cars have killed off the 1966 Mustang program? Time passes and new and better stuff comes out.

 

The fact that Mustang put Camaro and Firebird out of business for a good while and that an aftermarket grew up around the Mustangs is not my fault. That the S197 is a better developed platform than the Camaro largely because its been a continuing program and the Camaro has not been, is also a fact of life. I can't help it.

 

If you really think the S197 platform is a threat to the health of AI, then create a new class for the current crop of pony cars and leave the Fox, Fbody, III Gen and SN95 cars in AI.

 

Like I said before. I am not here to win. I just want to have a good time. I can race my car in AI or ST2. I have friends in both.

 

Personally I wonder if it wouldnt be more fun to fold AI, ST2, and GTS3 into a single race class. The fields would be awesome. but thats just me.