Ford Racing's Boss 302S Ready to Race AI in 2011

[D Algozine]

Once again my message appears to be getting lost. Must be me.

 

Simplified version

 

S197 Production street car - Great AI starting point. Appears to be very competitive in the rights hands. Great, I have no problem with this. Guys are free to build what ever they want, as long as it meets the rules set. I don't really care how many end up AI cars.

 

S197 Factory Race cars - Before rule changes some parts were not AI legal. AI rule makers changed the rules, so they would be legal. My opinion, bad precedent, bad for other aftermarket companies, bad for the series, and not good for other 98% of the current AI racers who struggled to build there cars to the correct rule set. Swap the illegal parts out of the car and join the AI fun. It's that simple.

Parts in question, Race ABS and $7k race transmission. Sorry but the rest of us knuckle heads built cars to the rule set, so should everyone else, even if its a manufacturer. Or is the message that manufacturer race cars and parts get a pass, or is it just Ford racing that gets a pass? Why deal with any of it? It should have been left alone, perdiod. Ford racing is not Ford the production car manufacturer, so don't attempt to combine the two by calling Ford Racing parts production parts. They are not production parts, they are purpose built race parts. Ford Racing should be treated like every other after market provider. But they apparently are not, why? If you allow one race ABS system, then allow them all, which in my opinion is a bad idea. So, I'm in favor of street production systems only, and put the trans cap back the way it was.

 

edit: sp

Edited December 25, 2010 by Guest

[firehawkclone]

They will not change the rule Dave, In doing so they will run off what they think is a big sponsor. What they don't see on the wall is what's been happening. We will never get any CMC2 cars to step up to AI if they have to buy a ABS system. A aftermarket racing ABS system for a GM car is from Bosch for 10g. And no a corvette system doesnt work On a fbody, so just drop that once and for all. Let's not even have ABS and move on.....

 

We can contact Jerry, Ryan, and John and let them know what we think is a bad direction for AI. And than replace these people that want us to be big budget Race teams with new cars every few years.

 

 

Once again my message appears to be getting lost. Most be me.

 

Simplified version

 

S197 Production street car - Great AI starting point. Appears to be very competitive in the rights hands. Great, I have no problem with this. Guys are free to build what ever they want, as long as it meets the rules set. I don't really care how many end up AI cars.

 

S197 Factory Race cars - Before rule changes some parts were not AI legal. AI rule makers changed the rules, so they would be legal. My opinion, bad precedent, bad for other aftermarket companies, bad for the series, and not good for other 98% of the current AI racers who struggled to build there cars to the correct rule set. Swap the illegal parts out of the car and join the AI fun. It's that simple.

Parts in question, Race ABS and $7k race transmission. Sorry but the rest of us knuckle heads built cars to the rule set, so should everyone else, even if its a manufacturer. Or is the message that manufacturer race cars and parts get a pass, or is it just Ford racing that gets a pass? Why deal with any of it? It should have been left alone, perdiod. Ford racing is not Ford the production car manufacturer, so don't attempt to combine the two by calling Ford Racing parts production parts. They are not production parts, they are purpose built race parts. Ford Racing should be treated like every other after market provider. But they apparently are not, why? If you allow one race ABS system, then allow them all, which in my opinion is a bad idea. So, I'm in favor of street production systems only, and put the trans cap back the way it was.

[robbodleimages]

Once again my message appears to be getting lost. Most be me.

 

Simplified version

 

S197 Production street car - Great AI starting point. Appears to be very competitive in the rights hands. Great, I have no problem with this. Guys are free to build what ever they want, as long as it meets the rules set. I don't really care how many end up AI cars.

 

S197 Factory Race cars - Before rule changes some parts were not AI legal. AI rule makers changed the rules, so they would be legal. My opinion, bad precedent, bad for other aftermarket companies, bad for the series, and not good for other 98% of the current AI racers who struggled to build there cars to the correct rule set. Swap the illegal parts out of the car and join the AI fun. It's that simple.

Parts in question, Race ABS and $7k race transmission. Sorry but the rest of us knuckle heads built cars to the rule set, so should everyone else, even if its a manufacturer. Or is the message that manufacturer race cars and parts get a pass, or is it just Ford racing that gets a pass? Why deal with any of it? It should have been left alone, perdiod. Ford racing is not Ford the production car manufacturer, so don't attempt to combine the two by calling Ford Racing parts production parts. They are not production parts, they are purpose built race parts. Ford Racing should be treated like every other after market provider. But they apparently are not, why? If you allow one race ABS system, then allow them all, which in my opinion is a bad idea. So, I'm in favor of street production systems only, and put the trans cap back the way it was.

 

well....the abs and the transmission. its funny. the abs doesnt work with the toyo tires. it locks up regular and it doesnt have to be hard on the brakes. when any of my sticky tires start getting hard they lock up too. of course the ai program fixes that. i suppose you could force me to spend the money for a whole new module when just the program would do. seems silly when the current program is not an advantage.

 

the transmission. again, i am a low budget participant. for that transmission to be effective I need to run 410 to 455 gears depending on the track. the real advantage is in the 6 racing gears. since grand am mandated the FR500C run a 355 gear the transmission is effectively a 4 speed even on big straightaway tracks like road atlanta and vir.

 

i dont have the budget to be replacing perfectly reliable gearing and the car is just fine the way it is for me.

 

this transmission, btw, is horrible to shift. its like shifting a dump truck. another reason to keep the 355s and reduce the shifting. Lastly, the transmission is discontinued. a left over new one is around $5k. used one's for less.

 

there are things about the ford racing mustang programs for a guy like you to be afraid of, but these two things are not them. Unless you are still campaigning to kill ABS entirely.

 

I didnt miss your point at all. I dont believe the doom and gloom that ford racing is going to kill AI.

but i do understand what you are saying.

 

Like I said, I am small budget and if I have to buy a new transmission kit and buy a new abs module and buy new gearing, i'd just as soon run ST2.

[Glenn]

My bet is keeping ABS (considering the OEM systmes are all over the map performance wise from one platform to another) will be the death of AI. Banning a system (part) that is not policeable is the only real answer. Let tallent be the deciding factor, not one's wallet.

 

As for CMC guys not moving up to AI, get real. CMC guys are largely in CMC due to cost containment. A big money CMC car is in the $10-$15K range. I've been in CMC for 6 years and I've only seen a couple of these. For the most part, $5k is the norm for a CMC car. AI is in the $50-$70K regularly.

 

I also do not know of a single CMC driver who wants his/her ABS back.

[robbodleimages]

i dont have 50-70k in my AI car.

[Glenn]

i dont have 50-70k in my AI car.

 

And I don't have $10-$15K in mine, but they are out there. Same goes for AI..... they are our there, and plenty of them.

[robbodleimages]

i have a friend with a freshly built CMC2 S197 Mustang. I am fairly sure that it didnt cost him any $15k.

 

I am 50. I dont expect to be racing past 60, if that long. an S197 car should be a competitive platform over that period of time. at least for the first half of that time as Ford won't have a new Mustang chassis til 2015. In the long run what i have is very cost effective.

[edhunter]

As a newbie to the AI scene (comp lic. obtained this past fall), I'm in it to have fun. I'm constantly building/tweaking/breaking/fixing a fox body car just because I enjoy it. It's a hobby.... if I blow it up tomorrow, I'll build another one and make it better. I get more satisfaction out of making this POS fairmont-chassis fly. ABS doesn't bother me in the least. If another car outbrakes me because he/she has ABS, then so what. If he/she outdrives me, then I'll applaud his/her efforts and skill, watch their line, and try to get better so I can beat them next time. Yeah, I'd vote for no ABS period just to eliminate a bitching point... but I'm not going to stop this HOBBY because I can't beat someone that has it. I'm not going to retro-fit it in my car either. I'll keep reading, learning, and tweaking what I can to get the most of what I have and how I drive... that I can control. As far as buying a new balls-out racecar, I could tomorrow... but I don't want to. What fun would that be? I just watched the online video of the AI championships from Miller, and the fox-car on the ass of the pro driver in the new car was beautiful! I'd guess the pro driver was the first to congratulate him.....

My opinion FWIW...

Merry Christmas All!

ed hunter

[Aaron B]

I'm in the 50k club, I need all the bells, whistles and technology to make up for what I lack in the skills department

 

AB

[gbrown8439]

Banning a system (part) that is not policeable is the only real answer. Let tallent be the deciding factor, not one's wallet.

 

Yeah, that has made Nascar real cheap hasn't it?

 

As long as you race in a series with different cars in the class someone is going to have an advantage. Deal with it.

 

We are all still at the level where the driver is the biggest advantage. I would bet big $ that almost anyone reading this would benefit more from spending their ABS and transmission money on professional driver coaching.

[firehawkclone]

Atleast NASCAR has a level playing field. Alot of us are very capable drivers with pretty even skills, so adding a advantage like ABS is just that! And the rest of us are not allowed to get a race setup!

 

Not that I would buy the 10g setup.

 

 

Banning a system (part) that is not policeable is the only real answer. Let tallent be the deciding factor, not one's wallet.

 

Yeah, that has made Nascar real cheap hasn't it?

 

As long as you race in a series with different cars in the class someone is going to have an advantage. Deal with it.

 

We are all still at the level where the driver is the biggest advantage. I would bet big $ that almost anyone reading this would benefit more from spending their ABS and transmission money on professional driver coaching.

[UBR]

I would bet big $ that almost anyone reading this would benefit more from spending their ABS and transmission money on professional driver coaching.

Ding, ding, ding... We have a winner!

 

IMO, ABS allows you to be less of a driver.

 

j

[nape]

If you're worried about ABS having an advantage in the dry, you need to work on your braking system to optimize it and your driving to maximize your inputs.

 

If you're worried about ABS in the wet, you have good reason because it's a huge advantage.

 

I'm tired of wasting my breath on ABS arguments because it won't change the feelings of the leadership.

 

The new cars have lots of bells and whistles that will help mid-packers run above their talent level and anyone who can drive at the top will run there.

 

Turn-key race cars don't worry me as much as someone who optimizes the S197 chassis and builds a real race car at the limit of the AI rules. It's a great platform and we haven't really seen what it can do yet.

[robbodleimages]

the limit of AI rules. thats the real thing to fear. not abs. if the money that runs SCCA national competition would jump into AI, it would change everything in ways that would make the abs debate look silly.

 

how many guys here rent race tracks to test tires and brake pad compounds? how many here have the budget to just take a practice day and try 3 or 4 new brake pad compounds and front and rear pad combinations?

 

i dont have the budget for fuel and entry fees to run a race that doesnt pay points if i want to points race for a season, much less test and practice.

[D Algozine]

I get a kick out of the statements that say, this or that high tech gadget doesn't reallly matter. Which I reply, then why did the rules get changed to allow these gadgets. I'm sure Ford Racing spends hundreds of thousands of dollars developing parts that don't matter. If that were the case, then keeping the rules the same, and leaving them out should be no big deal.

If you can afford one of Ford Racings race cars, you can affort to swap in a legal transmission and a stock ABS module.

I'm looking at a Pratt and Miller Engineering ABS system for my new car. I see no reason why it shouldn't be legal. Besides, it's probably crappy like the Ford Racing unit, and is of no value; therefore, it shouldn't matter and no one should care if gets legalized.

[D Algozine]

IMO, ABS allows you to be less of a driver.

 

j

 

Unless it's in the hands of a very capable driver in a very well set up car. I'm sure all those knuckle heads in Grand Am and other Pro series use race ABS systems because it looks good under the hood.

[robbodleimages]

I get a kick out of the statements that say, this or that high tech gadget doesn't reallly matter. Which I reply, then why did the rules get changed to allow these gadgets. I'm sure Ford Racing spends hundreds of thousands of dollars developing parts that don't matter. If that were the case, then keeping the rules the same, and leaving them out should be no big deal.

If you can afford one of Ford Racings race cars, you can affort to swap in a legal transmission and a stock ABS module.

I'm looking at a Pratt and Miller Engineering ABS system for my new car. I see no reason why it shouldn't be legal. Besides, it's probably crappy like the Ford Racing unit, and is of no value; therefore, it shouldn't matter and no one should care if gets legalized.

 

dave, i understand your point of view and i understand that you have strong feelings. i appreciate that. on the other hand i dont understand this stuff. the fr500c abs module on my car is programmed for sticky race tires. when i have old/hard bfg's on that car the brakes lock every lap. i am told this is exactly how they act with toyo's on. its true. the abs program for the boss s only backs that up. yet you want to snark over it? please dont. its not necessary. unless you want to call me a liar?

 

straight forward question. do you think my t56r with a 355 gear which requires only 4 gears to get around road atlanta is an advantage? if yes, tell me how that it is?

[GEORGEWINKLER]

Banning a system (part) that is not policeable is the only real answer. Let tallent be the deciding factor, not one's wallet.

 

Yeah, that has made Nascar real cheap hasn't it?

 

As long as you race in a series with different cars in the class someone is going to have an advantage. Deal with it.

 

We are all still at the level where the driver is the biggest advantage. I would bet big $ that almost anyone reading this would benefit more from spending their ABS and transmission money on professional driver coaching.

 

 

Greg you are right!

The folks that make the most noise have the most to gain in other areas of driving. And should not worry about about ABS or the cars of tomorrow in AI.

 

George

[UBR]

I'm sure all those knuckle heads in Grand Am and other Pro series use race ABS systems because it looks good under the hood.

The Pro series are exactly that. Pro- Racing for money and to keep sponsor money coming in.

 

Is ABS an advantage in the wet? Sure.

Does ABS assist a less talented driver and let them run like "a very capable driver in a very well set up car"? Probably.

That's why you see it in the Pro ranks. The rules allow it. Take advantage of it so you don't have to get the 1 in 10 million driver. You can settle for the 1 in 100,000 and get close to the same results.

 

The car "in the hands of a very capable driver" is one where that capable driver knows about threshold braking and modulating to prevent lock up. With ABS, there's no reason to learn those skills to be fast.

 

That's why I said it allows you to be a less talented driver. 10 years from now when most people grew up racing with ABS it will be us old guys that remember when you had to learn about braking control instead of go to the braking point and stand on 'em as hard as you can, lift and turn.

[D Algozine]

Attempting to clarify:

I'm really not attempting to rally the troups for my cause. You can agree or disagree with me or anyone else. I don't expect anything that is discussed here to change the direction. This isn't a democracy, but we do get to have opinions, which is nice.

So, from my point of view, there are those that think allowing just one platform the ability to readily bolt on a race developed ABS system, that it's of no value, doesn't really help a "really good" driver, and shouldn't matter. Maybe it doesn't in some drivers cases, but it certainly does in others. You are all kidding yourselves if you think a quality race ABS system can't make a huge difference with a skilled person. You're also kidding yourself if you think it only matters in the rain, or you simply don't understand those systems. The effects are magnified in the rain, but they are also there in the dry, especially over a stock production system. You are wrong if you think a race version is only there to prevent lock up. Thats what the stock production versions do. A race version is much better then that. Of course it doesn't mean if you have one, you're going to win. True, but, again used properly, it's a significant advantage.

So, these nearly worthless, highly developed race ABS systems really don't help, need to be made legal in AI because......? I have no idea why. That's the question I've asked since this started a few years ago. Why? The tranmission, I at least understand why, but I think it just makes a mockery of the whole rule system, when rules can be tweaked any time to fit a certain situation. You can't just make an eleventh hour mod because a certain car needs to be legal. Doesnt work that way. At least it shouldn't. And if no one else is fired up about any of this, then I guess it's just me, I must not be that good of a racer if I'm affriad of all this STUFF. However, I still think the flatforms should be as close to equal as posssible.

 

I don't see a good reason not to make any race ABS system available to everyone. That should be fair, shouldn't it?

[tacovini]

Dave,

Give me a call this week. You're starting to sound like a broken record.

I'd love to hear you out, discuss, explain or shed light as much as I can.

 

-=- Todd

[robbodleimages]

dave,

 

i will try and splain this one more time. tell me what about this is either a lie or a mistaken opinion on my part. ok?

 

the racing abs in the fr500c is programmed for racing tires. the programming of the module sees toyos as street tires. the abs does not work with toyos. the brakes lock up all the time. this is sensitive enough when softer hoosiers and bfg's get cyled out to being too hard, they also lock up every lap and without much stress on the brakes.

 

it is NOT an advantage because it does NOT work.

 

the GT500 abs is for street cars and is so tuned for street rubber and therefore it works with toyos.

it is an advantage but is not a racing program.

[Raybob9289]

Dave,

Give me a call this week. You're starting to sound like a broken record.

I'd love to hear you out, discuss, explain or shed light as much as I can.

 

-=- Todd

 

Todd,

I would have to agree with Dave. Why wouldn't the Pratt Miller ABS set up be legal for the GM guys if the Ford Racing system on the FR500 Mustangs are AI Legal? Seems fair to me???

Why does the Mngment of AI lean to the Blue Oval side of things??? I thought we were tryin to create parity amongst the Big 3? Dave has some really good points. I know ABS in the right hands is an advantage. I don't use it because I have always raced with out it but if I built a 5th gen Camaro I'd use the Riley or Pratt Miller set up just like the Grand Am Camaro's..... Its seems only fair???

[gbrown8439]

Attempting to clarify:

I don't see a good reason not to make any race ABS system available to everyone. That should be fair, shouldn't it?

 

I haven't agreed with a lot of your opinions but I'm with you on this one.

Considering how wide open the rules are in general and the amount of money you could spend if you were building a car to the limit of the rules I don't think a race ABS wouldn't be a budget buster. Heck if anything was allowed I bet a lot of people could figure out how to put the Ford system on their car for around $1000.

[stevepoe]

the racing abs in the fr500c is programmed for racing tires. the programming of the module sees toyos as street tires. the abs does not work with toyos. the brakes lock up all the time. this is sensitive enough when softer hoosiers and bfg's get cyled out to being too hard, they also lock up every lap and without much stress on the brakes.

 

 

you must have something else wrong with your system as I don't have this problem. I can stomp it and it will engage and stop as it should. They don't lock up.