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Greg G.

2011 Super Touring/Super Unlimited Rules are Posted-12-15-10

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Greg G.

The 2011 NASA Super Touring and Super Unlimited Rules are now posted and can be downloaded here:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Super-Touring.pdf

(If you do not find the 2011 Rules at that link, you must clear the cache on your browser.

If that does not work, then clear the history on your browser as well.)

 

The 2011 Super Touring and STR Car Classification Forms will be posted next week.

 

There are not many changes to the rules for 2011, but a few highlights are:

1) All Dyno graphs must show decreasing power for 300 rpm from the peak horsepower

level, or the car must reach the rev-limiter during the Dyno testing.

2) Distinction is made between Regional and National penalties for vehicle non-compliance

3) Some specific floorpan modifications are listed in Appendix A

 

Also, note that I am the National Super Touring Director again, and all correspondence should be directed

to me or your Regional ST Director until further notice.

 

Thanks and enjoy your off-season builds,

Greg G.

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IGZOSTD

Greg, so this new dyno rule would keep a competitor from using a RPM module to limit HP, correct.

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Balroks

I was curious about that too, I know of a few people who claim, having drive-by-wire or electric throttle, that the ecu can be told to "rev limit" at an exact rpm in each gear. So if they hit that rev limit....nothings different rule wise?

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kbrew8991

read the published rule again, the word "or" is important.

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Balroks

Exactly why I wanted to make sure based on the first poster's response.

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IGZOSTD

Yes thanks Ken, I missed that, I can tune my retard any way I like also. So as long as it matches the dyno set up I would be good.

American Push Rod V8's LG

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Greg G.

Many cars will have aftermarket ECU's that can have a rev-limit programmed into it. The problem is that we have had drivers in both big bore cars and F.I. cars that go to the Dyno, and they tell the Dyno operator that the "redline" is XXXX rpm. Then, we see a graph still heading north, yet the Dyno operator is afraid to push it past that point because the competitor is "claiming" that XXXX rpm is the redline. I rejected one Dyno that was submitted to me for a 3rd Gen RX7 with a turbo that had "redline" at 6500 rpm, with a hp graph heading north at about 40 degrees and suddenly the test is stopped.

 

So, either the Dyno graph clearly shows that the max HP has been reached, or the rev-limit gets hit--no more of this, "but I never take it above XXXX rpm...."

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IGZOSTD

Got it Greg. at first I read it as 300RPM after peek and hit the limit. Not that I can't read just reading fast sometimes catches me runnin over the crank.

Well I've been trying to map out the best way to run in 2 different pwr/wt classes haven't had the thing on the dyno as of yet. Looking at RPM controlled retard, Rev limit or possibly a smaller carb. The timing stuff is cheaper as it's currently part of my engine package. Throwing wt. in would only be for small adjustments.

Thanks

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jrgordonsenior
Many cars will have aftermarket ECU's that can have a rev-limit programmed into it. The problem is that we have had drivers in both big bore cars and F.I. cars that go to the Dyno, and they tell the Dyno operator that the "redline" is XXXX rpm. Then, we see a graph still heading north, yet the Dyno operator is afraid to push it past that point because the competitor is "claiming" that XXXX rpm is the redline. I rejected one Dyno that was submitted to me for a 3rd Gen RX7 with a turbo that had "redline" at 6500 rpm, with a hp graph heading north at about 40 degrees and suddenly the test is stopped.

 

So, either the Dyno graph clearly shows that the max HP has been reached, or the rev-limit gets hit--no more of this, "but I never take it above XXXX rpm...."

 

Great rule Greg, it makes sense.....

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kbrew8991
Great rule Greg, it makes sense.....

agreed, hope other NASA series adopt it!

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jrgordonsenior

Greg,

 

Since you're taking over as the ST Director for 2011 could you please take a moment and help clarify how the weight/HP rules are applied at an event. I don't want to be DQ'd for missunderstanding the rules.

 

It was my understanding as a newby last year in ST2, that if you were protested or inspected by officials, you were weighed and then sent directly to the dyno (obviously when available). Your dyno results then had to be complaint with your class parameters based on your inspected weight. So if your inspection weight was 2800 lbs. and you're running ST2 without any modifiers, your WHP had to be 322 or less (2800/8.7).

 

Here's my question and I can't find a definitive answer in the ST rules:

 

Say you're latest/current dyno shows 310 whp and you fill out your classification sheet accordingly. 310 rwhp allows you a minimum weight of 2697 (310 x 8.7). You're inspected at qualifying and weigh 2800 well above your minimum, but the subsequent inspection dyno comes in at 315 whp. You're still well within class parameters (315 x 8.7 =2740 lbs.), but you're not complaint with your classification sheet.

 

Can you be DQ'd based on the above scenario?

 

 

The ST rules don't address this issue directly and I'm concerned how different regions may interpret. I'm planning on running both Arizona and Nor Cal in 2011 along with So Cal hence my concerns.....

 

"Any car exceding the minimum “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio for its declared class, or otherwise found to be non-compliant with the rules for its declared class, will be penalized in accordance with the NASA CCR and these rules".

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IGZOSTD

jr, I believe as long as you stay within the class rules pw/wt, To run ST2 the dyno sheet and scale's are to prove you haven't exceeded the class limit. The first event is Feb. and I will put everyone on the scales to verify compliance with your sheet.

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jrgordonsenior
jr, I believe as long as you stay within the class rules pw/wt, To run ST2 the dyno sheet and scale's are to prove you haven't exceeded the class limit. The first event is Feb. and I will put everyone on the scales to verify compliance with your sheet.

 

Steve that's what I had thought too. There's a thread on Arizona's website that was initially about Trackmate monitoring devices. The question was raised about being complaint with your classification sheet and their perspective was you could be DQ'd for being under weight or over power based on the classing sheet regardless of compliance. They didn't say they would, but said they could and I'm uncomfortable with that degree of flexibility. Someone also mentioned that Greg G. DQ'd some one at Miller under those circumstances (class compliant, but outside their classification sheet). http://forums.nasaaz.com/showthread.php?t=4450

 

This is competitive racing and I imagine most competitors strive to be on the edge of compliance. The rules as I've read them don't appear to support that ruling but I'd like Greg G. to clarify. As I said previously, I'm planning on running in multiple regions in 2011 and it would be benefical to operate with consistant rules enforcement....

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IGZOSTD

I was not aware of this procedure. After reading through some of those posts I can understand the situation better. Keep in mind that policing these matters is no easy task. Even if your car is not running on the edge of breaking out of class, a bump in power output is going to raise the flag.

I'm sure Greg will respond to this and clarify any indescrepencies.

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Holster Maker

Post race dyno checks are always based on your post race wt.

No matter what your sheet states!

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Falcon

For those regions that will be using the Traqmate for HP compliance, how strictly will those readings be interpreted? There can be some wide variances in those readings (20 - 25 hp).

 

Not every region has a dyno available for compliance testing.

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jrgordonsenior
For those regions that will be using the Traqmate for HP compliance, how strictly will those readings be interpreted? There can be some wide variances in those readings (20 - 25 hp). Not every region has a dyno available for compliance testing.

 

From the new rules:

 

"Traqmate GPS data acquisition monitoring will be used in 2011 as an additional method of non-invasive compliance testing, but not as the sole reason for disqualification".

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Falcon
For those regions that will be using the Traqmate for HP compliance, how strictly will those readings be interpreted? There can be some wide variances in those readings (20 - 25 hp). Not every region has a dyno available for compliance testing.

 

From the new rules:

 

"Traqmate GPS data acquisition monitoring will be used in 2011 as an additional method of non-invasive compliance testing, but not as the sole reason for disqualification".

 

 

I've been following the thread here and over on the AZ forum, and, like you, I wonder about various region's flexibility in terms of enforcement.

 

That brings up something else, can't the ST director's of each region download the data from the Traqmate units (or any other data collector) many racers have already installed and use that for compliance testing? Is there a difference between the test units used at Nat's vs those everyday units installed in race cars?

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Vettedoctor

We got one of our TTS times thrown out at Nationals in 2010 because we were under weight after one run. We had one of the connectors on our Kool-Suit break off and ran without the cooler in the car for the first run so that the epoxy could dry. I didn't add any additional weight and we came in 11 lbs light. The time for that session was thrown out, it was Saturday morning so we still had several more sessions to go, but that was our fastest time of the weekend and it was tossed out. (Would've put us into 2nd in TTS)

The thing is we dynoed earlier in the day so even though we were legal hp/wt wise we still lost the time. We dynoed at 393 in the morning (397 on our sheet) we weighed in at 3389 and should've weighed 3400. - 8.72 adjusted - We came on on empty, and with the cooler in the car the least the car could've weighed was 3410. We put in buffers on both ends but still got the time thrown out. So I think it depends on the situation.

There are a few ways you could look at things.

One way is either you are legal or you are illegal adjusted hp/wt is really our one big rule so if you are legal there then you should be legal.

But you are responsible for what you put on your sheet, so you shouldn't go over on power or under on weight.

We were under weight and penalized for it, our car was technically legal, but not compliant with our sheet. So if you are going to run close then you have to make extra sure you know where you are at all the time.

I would think that if this happened in Qualifying then your time would be tossed, if it was a race who knows? I'm curious as well.

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Greg G.

At any event where dynamometer testing (or GPS compliance testing once it is approved) is not

available, Super Touring Officials will use the maximum chassis Dyno horsepower level from

the certified Dyno report submitted with the ST Car Classification Form along with the actual

vehicle weight after competition to calculate the “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio for that vehicle.

Alternatively, at their discretion, Super Touring Officials may have the vehicle sealed and

transported for off-site Dyno testing at a later date. At events where Dyno testing (or GPS

compliance testing once it is approved) is available, Super Touring Officials at their option will

use either: a) the maximum chassis Dyno horsepower level from the certified Dyno report

submitted with the ST Car Classification Form along with the actual vehicle weight after

competition to calculate the “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio for that vehicle; or b) the results of

Dyno testing either requested by Super Touring Officials or performed due to a protest at the

track to calculate the “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio.

 

So, if you go underweight at the scales based on the Dyno you submitted with your ST Car Classification Form, you are not legal, and will likely be D/Q'd. ST Officials do have the option to Dyno the car and see if it is still legal (i.e. it puts down less horsepower than on the Dyno that was submitted). However, why should they? The competitor submitted the Dyno sheet, and the competitor knew what the Minimum Weight HAD TO BE to be legal. If the competitor knew the car was underpowered, then he/she should have had the car re-Dyno'd before the competition/race, and should have submitted the new Dyno and weight. Why should ST Officials waste NASA money or Dyno time to see if the competitor can get lucky on the Dyno? So, in most cases, there will just be a D/Q if the car goes under the Minimum weight based on the Dyno sheet submitted.

 

TT and PT have Procedural Violations built into their Rules for the case where someone puts down the Minimum Weight, goes under that weight, and then it turns out that the car is still legal for the class (after we waste the time and resources of the Officials to deal with it). ST does not currently have that rule. So, the TTS car was penalized using that rule. Technically, he could have just been D/Q'd period, based on the above paragraph, because the Dyno he had submitted and the Minimum Weight on the Form based on that Dyno was over his weight on the scales. But, then again, the car turned out to still be just within the 8.7:1 ratio AFTER it was Dyno'd again. He got lucky, and we do try to be fair to everyone, so we didn't D/Q him from the entire event.

 

So, what about the situation when an ST competitor purposely submits a Dyno sheet that he knows is not accurate (i.e. the car puts out more power than that Dyno sheet states). If we Dyno the car, then we should weigh the car first. If the Dyno results, combined with the actual weight of the car calculate out to be a legal combination that is over the ratio limit, then the car is legal, regardless of whether the Dyno numbers produced would make the weight listed on the form illegal. However, the higher Dyno sheet will then be used to calculate the new Minimum Weight going forward. So, what do we do about this competitor? We use GPS to determine when we want to Dyno the car, even if it requires sealing it, and taking it to the Dyno the week after the event. Once we legalize GPS without Dyno backup, we will not see competitors attempting to submit low Dyno sheets and run light.

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IGZOSTD

Thanks for the clarification Greg.

I hope this puts the competitors at ease, and all makes perfect sense.

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Greg G.

One more thing. While we won't be using GPS by itself to D/Q competitors, NASA reserves the right to request a tear down of any vehicle that we suspect is using electronics to run higher power on the track than on the Dyno.

 

That should put all of the legal competitors at ease.

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Vettedoctor

Yes Greg thank you for the clarification,

 

What kind of buffer do you think a competitor should include when they hand in there classification form? We handed in a dyno graph that said 394, but we put 397 on our sticker, our mimimum weight was 3401 but the car should've weighed 3410 with driver and little to no fuel - if the cooler was in the car . So running 10 lbs extra 4 hp low was our buffer, we made a mistake and were rightfully penalized for the mistake, however the car was technically never illegal, we were guilty of a procedural violation in the TT rules.

We didn't have to re-dyno because we already dynoed on our own dime earlier in the morning and handed in our sheet which stated 394 hp was our power level. The officials calculated our hp/wt based on the 394 hp dyno sheet we submitted with our new weight of 3389 and we were not "illegal" but we did violate TT procedure by coming in underweight, hence the loss of that time.

We know what we did wrong and it won't happen again, but this is as good a time as any to dicuss what we feel, as competitors, is an acceptible buffer for both hp and wt.

Our above case was obviously too close, so how close do you cut it without giving too much away? Should we all aim to run closer to 8.8 - 8.75 - 8.71 corrected? No one wants to get DQ'd but no one wants to give up too much either. So what do you guys think?

Edited by Guest

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jrgordonsenior

Thanks Greg for the clarification....

 

Joel your car was DQ'd under TT rules which are different than ST rules. Based on what Greg posted, I don't believe you would have been DQ'd in ST as you were class legal....

 

FWIW, I dyno'd on Wednesday at Miller too just to be sure and was surprised to come in 8 HP more (280 vs 272). Consequently I added an additional 80 lbs. to remain complaint. I was pissed, but I'm glad I found out before getting dyno'd after the first qual race and getting DQ'd. My new/identical factory reman motor just dyno''d at only 267 unfortunately, but I want to dyno it again in Arizona before the races. Any suggestions for a Dynojet near PIR?.....

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Balroks

Gotta take in everything to consider. Since i use e85 and I never know what i'm getting from location to location, add in the turbo, temp, elevation, humidity etc, all affects dyno numbers. So for a safe number I would say around 15hp less then max. But as in a previous post said, the art is on the edge. So if you've got the support to make adjustments on the fly, by all means, but most of us don't so better to play it safe and not get DQ'd.

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