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Greg G.

2011 Super Touring/Super Unlimited Rules are Posted-12-15-10

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Jaymz

One issue that I have with the dyno testing is that the dyno @ MidOhio this year there was a 5 HP difference between Saturday's dyno and Sundays. I did nothing to change the car for Sunday but add weight to make the car compliant. The weather was pretty close as well.. Maybe 5 degrees cooler on Sunday. I know all of us live and die by the dyno but I have been caught two times by varing dyno results from day to day. Once in 2007 @ Nats and once in 2010.

 

I know people say to not run the car that close to the edge but 5 HP on the dyno is almost 45 lbs. When I added the weight for the Sunday race in Apr 2010 and the car dynoed 5 hp less than what it did the previous day I was then 150 lbs over weight. I don't know the answer but I would like to help with the solution.

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L98Terror
Yes Greg thank you for the clarification,

 

What kind of buffer do you think a competitor should include when they hand in there classification form? We handed in a dyno graph that said 394, but we put 397 on our sticker, our mimimum weight was 3401 but the car should've weighed 3410 with driver and little to no fuel - if the cooler was in the car . So running 10 lbs extra 4 hp low was our buffer, we made a mistake and were rightfully penalized for the mistake, however the car was technically never illegal, we were guilty of a procedural violation in the TT rules.

We didn't have to re-dyno because we already dynoed on our own dime earlier in the morning and handed in our sheet which stated 394 hp was our power level. The officials calculated our hp/wt based on the 394 hp dyno sheet we submitted with our new weight of 3389 and we were not "illegal" but we did violate TT procedure by coming in underweight, hence the loss of that time.

We know what we did wrong and it won't happen again, but this is as good a time as any to dicuss what we feel, as competitors, is an acceptible buffer for both hp and wt.

Our above case was obviously too close, so how close do you cut it without giving too much away? Should we all aim to run closer to 8.8 - 8.75 - 8.71 corrected? No one wants to get DQ'd but no one wants to give up too much either. So what do you guys think?

 

 

 

 

One issue that I have with the dyno testing is that the dyno @ MidOhio this year there was a 5 HP difference between Saturday's dyno and Sundays. I did nothing to change the car for Sunday but add weight to make the car compliant. The weather was pretty close as well.. Maybe 5 degrees cooler on Sunday. I know all of us live and die by the dyno but I have been caught two times by varing dyno results from day to day. Once in 2007 @ Nats and once in 2010.

 

I know people say to not run the car that close to the edge but 5 HP on the dyno is almost 45 lbs. When I added the weight for the Sunday race in Apr 2010 and the car dynoed 5 hp less than what it did the previous day I was then 150 lbs over weight. I don't know the answer but I would like to help with the solution.

 

 

Nobody is going to like my answer but if you read the rules on your 4th dq you are banned from the series forever. The the question you need to ask yourself is how much do you want to sweat? Do you feel lucky, will they enforce the rules today or give you a pass.

 

I can't answer what others should do, I'm pretty sure everyone knows how I feel about this topic but I will share what I do. Some people call it over weight I call it running legal, ST rules don't have a buffer because if they did people would try to run into the buffer and that would be the new standard. You need to create your own buffer, normally I run about 100-150# over my minimum weight, now in my mind that is not underweight that is legal weight, because if you are 1# underweight you have just run one class higher. The rules give you a range not a target you don't get extra points for running right at 8.7.

 

Now at Nationals I try and run it a bit closer but I also make sure I hit the dyno and I go across the scales before going out, now you (I) may get DQed for dynoing to high but to go across the scales low is nobody's fault but our own.

 

You also have to understand that a dyno is not an absolute there is variation for dyno to dyno and from time to time on the same dyno and it depends on all sorts of factors. The dyno at Miller was about 15 RWHP different from my high dyno number (highest of three) to my lowest & if you want to take my absolute lowest to highest the # was even bigger. IMO we all know that and to run without at least a 10 hp or 87# cushion is risky.

 

Now I just thought of this but what I would like to see is more strict enforcement of the rules with that in mind I would also like people treated fairly so maybe we do offer a cushion in ST/TTS(U). It would go something like this: You get a .1 hp/lb or about 35# cushion but if you are caught running within that .1 you won't be penalized per the ST rule for running out of class but you will lose 1 second from all you TT times up until that point (or qualifying) and you will lose 1 finishing position in the race. (caught post race).

 

Just an idea

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Greg G.

Ken, I think you had it right all the way to your last paragraph

 

Any change or buffer allowance, etc. just changes the standard. Lets say you had 30 ST2 racers at the Championships. The driver that crossed the checkers first turned out to be under 8.7:1 based on Dyno testing (lets say the dyno is 4 hp over on a 3175 lbs Vette). That would be about your 35 lbs or .1 lb/hp buffer. What do you think the drivers that crossed the checkers in P3 or P4 (that both ran 50-100 lbs heavy to make sure they were legal) would say after the illegal car got moved to 2nd place on the podium in front of them? Not pretty.

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Vettedoctor

I think we had it easier at Miller because air quality is very similar from day to day, Mid-O is a much bigger crapshoot. It can be 80 and sunny one day and 50 and raining the next, especially in September.

 

Also there is one thing that has always been at the back of my mind when it comes to dyno testing, a cooler engine will make more power than a hotter engine. I believe that the unwritten rule is that a NASA Official can send you to the dyno at anytime throughout a weekend, weather it's first thing in the morning when you get there or just before the beer and bs is ready to flow. But the cars are raced when they are at opperating temp, so can we agree that no car should be dynoed until it's up to operating temp say 170 degree oil temp or something along those lines. The spirit of the rule is that we trying to gauge the cars on track power not trying to "catch" someone offgaurd with a cooler than normal dyno pull.

Plus everyone has enough money in there engines no one wants to start beating on a engine that hasn't had a chance to cool properly. This would also apply to impound, if you're sitting in impound for over an hour and your car has cooled, make sure it's back up to temp before the pull.

This may seem like common sense stuff but a set temp would be nice for conformity.

 

It would be nice if we could just come up with a gentlemans agreement that we should run a 5 hp and 40 lb buffer. This would basically come to a .2 buffer this way if you dyno "high" you would still be legal because you're running a little extra weight. This way if you show up at Mid-O and pay to put the car on the dyno early, you should make all the adjustments that you need to make to be in that range. If you have done that I find if very unlikely that you will be found illegal. IMO it doesn't matter what your local dyno shows, if there is a dyno at the track that is the only one that matters. Get it dynoed, factor in your buffer and go race.

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jrgordonsenior

I don't understand the need for any type of buffer. The rules are simple and easy to apply especially now that Greg's clarified a few things. Dyno your car, weigh it at the track, and choose the parameters you're willing to risk.....

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Red Tornado

Greg, question on the new WC Pzero compound. I know it isn't readily available yet but I am assuming it will likely be like VRL and Grand-am slicks. Will it be reviewed and perhaps given similar relief if shown to be more like a dot than a true slick?

 

Will make it really easy for some of us running both series to move over.

Thanks

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Greg G.
Greg, question on the new WC Pzero compound. I know it isn't readily available yet but I am assuming it will likely be like VRL and Grand-am slicks. Will it be reviewed and perhaps given similar relief if shown to be more like a dot than a true slick?

 

Will make it really easy for some of us running both series to move over.

Thanks

Yes, we will need to review them, but at this point, there is no plan to include them in 2011. If this quote on the World Challenge website is correct, then I doubt that we would approve them as DOT equivalents:

 

"Teams and drivers, representing the GT, GTS and Touring Car classes, came away from the test with grins ear to ear. The move from a street-legal tire to the P Zero racing slick enable World Challenge competitors to experience marked improvements in grip and speed. Teams participating in the test included 2010 Team Champions K-PAX Racing and RealTime Racing. World Challenge teams were realizing three to four second improvements over base tire comparisons."

 

While we would assume 1-2 seconds a lap for a jump to a lower treadwear DOT tire from the R888, 3-4 seconds is approaching the level of a true slick. If we find that this tire is "between" the performance levels of an R6/A6/Z214 C91, etc. and a true slick, then we will not approve it as a DOT equivalent. The VRL Hoosiers and the Grand Am Continentals are no better than a DOT R6/A6/Z214 C91, etc.

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Red Tornado

All sounds good. Looking forward to running some ST2 next year.

 

I will be running my car with both ra1's and the pzero's on sometimes even the same wknds so should find out quickly how good they really are.

 

I am spoiled with long life of Toyo's and Hoosiers so I hope they aren't like real slicks because then they won't last at all.

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