National Staff Greg G. Posted December 15, 2010 National Staff Share Posted December 15, 2010 The 2011 PT and ST Rules are posted (see below releases). TTA-TTF classing will be identical to PTA-PTF classing, and TTS and TTU classing will be identical to ST2 and ST1 classing. TT Rules are scheduled to be posted next week. The 2011 NASA Performance Touring Rules (v 6.1) have been approved and were released and are posted online. NASA has attempted to make improvements to the series as we continue with our goal of providing as much “rules stability” as possible. This series continues to be one of the fastest growing competition series within NASA, and the changes and upgrades to the rules should help to foster continued growth. We are seeing some great racing both regionally and at our National Championships, and we look forward to many years in the future. http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/performance_touring_rules.pdf (If you do not find the 2011 Rules at that link, you must clear the cache on your browser. If that does not work, then clear the history on your browser as well.) The 2011 Performance Touring Car Classification Forms will be posted next week. The 2011 NASA Super Touring and Super Unlimited Rules are now posted and can be downloaded here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Super-Touring.pdf (If you do not find the 2011 Rules at that link, you must clear the cache on your browser. If that does not work, then clear the history on your browser as well.) The 2011 Super Touring and STR Car Classification Forms will be posted next week. There are not many changes to the rules for 2011, but a few highlights are: 1) All Dyno graphs must show decreasing power for 300 rpm from the peak horsepower level, or the car must reach the rev-limiter during the Dyno testing. 2) Distinction is made between Regional and National penalties for vehicle non-compliance 3) Some specific floorpan modifications are listed in Appendix A Also, note that I am the National Super Touring Director again, and all correspondence should be directed to me or your Regional ST Director until further notice. Thanks and enjoy your off-season builds, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbow Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 Greg - you may want to look at the following and clean up the wording. It talks about suspension and engine mods in the same "free" mods section: Ride height adjustment (must still take points for springs and torsion bars above) limits listed above. (Note: 0.020” overbore with OEM rods and overbore pistons will yield an increase in displacement of approximately 1.1% for most engines.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 4hrs late on that one, I PM'd him about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 Under the No-Points modification section, the following is listed as part of one of the allowances: Hardtop must be OEM/OEM option or OEM/OEM option shape and size only, and must usea rear window. (ie., lightweight ok, but no tops with non-OEM aero features). Is this a PT-only rule or will it translate into TT rules as well? What was or is the basis for this exclusion? If it is a complete exclusion, why not a point assessment? Has a non-OEM hardtop for convertibles manifested itself for a competing car other than the S2000? If I'm reading the rule in PT correctly, and I believe I am, then only OEM or OEM knock-offs are permitted. Speaking solely with regards to the S2000, that eliminates the use of Spoon or Spoon-type and Mugen or Mugen-type tops. They are two vastly different designs, but not directly of OEM shape, thereby negating the use of either type. Respectfully, Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbow Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 That reminds me I need to ask a question about the stock halo on my corvette if I decide to extend the rollbar so its more than 2" over my head. If I do that part of the stock body work has to go (I'm a real tall guy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 ... Has a non-OEM hardtop for convertibles manifested itself for a competing car other than the S2000? Yes, carbon fiber knockoffs are available for the Miata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 ... Has a non-OEM hardtop for convertibles manifested itself for a competing car other than the S2000? Yes, carbon fiber knockoffs are available for the Miata. In a shape or design other than one mimmicing the OEM style? We're not talking about oem-style replacements here. I'm referring to non-oem-style replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 17, 2010 Author National Staff Share Posted December 17, 2010 There are plenty of other convertibles out there, and there are plenty of companies willing to make whatever they can sell. Our rule that allowed "hardtops" for No-Points without stating the restrictions was just a temptation for competitors to violate this rule, and get very upset after they spent thousands of dollars on an illegal part. If a performance modification is not specifically allowed by the rules, it is prohibited. A permitted item cannot be modified to perform either a prohibited function, or the function of an item that would otherwise be assessed points under the modification rules. Many of these tops have aero features build into them that are not defined under the Aero section, or worse yet, are defined but the competitor thought he could take no points. Even though "hardtops" were No-Points, there was never the intention to allow hardtops with additional aero features above and beyond the OEM style hardtop. We do not require the OEM hardtop because we allow for lighter weight tops. Coming up with a blanket point assessment would be impossible without making it cost so many points that nobody would get it anyway. There are just too many variations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackRat Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 ... Has a non-OEM hardtop for convertibles manifested itself for a competing car other than the S2000? Yes, carbon fiber knockoffs are available for the Miata. CF hardtops are available for the MR2 Spyders as well. That's what I have on mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Thank you, Greg. Your explanation definitely makes sense and seems fair. For the record, I've had my spoon-style hardtop long before I decided to go TT'ing. In fact, I sold my oem hardtop to pay for the one I currently have, which is just over 14#. It has never been my intention to break, or even bend, ANY rule, nor am I upset after spending a couple grand on the top a couple of years ago. What is to my dismay is that since the top is not air-tight, it is not reasonable to use it on the street. Now illegal (or always has been) for this type of competition- the type that I have been trying to help promote(TT) along with Jon, the market value of said top will decrease to almost nothing because the possible buyers will be significantly reduced- not NSA's problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) could there be a line added in the aero section for a non-OEM shape hardtop for whatever points its worth? There are alot of variations in other modifications and in how those modifications affect every listed car... Edited December 17, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Coming up with a blanket point assessment would be impossible without making it cost so many points that nobody would get it anyway. There are just too many variations. If a point value were assesed, albeit incredibly high, then affected folks could still compete with a roof over their heads. Some regions experience very cold temps, rain, and/or sweltering heat. They would inevitably be bumped up a class, but they could still compete. Conversely, I can understand not wanting to open a new can of worms, too. Not being argumentative; just discussing. Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 I don't see much aero benefit in the Mugen s2000 knockoff it just costs about $2k less than OEM. It makes me crazy the price of OEM ones here.. you can find one for $800 in UK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 There is a company making Miata hardtops that are much more of a fastback shape - they extend to the rear of the car. The manuf says it has aero advantages, who knows? Also the one year at MidOhio Nationals there was a Boxster there with an aftermarket hardtop designed to mirror the look of a Cayman. Once again who knows if there were any advantages or not. Speaking of hardtops, the rules do a much better job clarifying that the rear window must remain in the hardtop - can be lexan or glass but has to be there. This is a rule I'm guilty of having broken at a couple of events...oops... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted December 17, 2010 Members Share Posted December 17, 2010 Speaking of hardtops, the rules do a much better job clarifying that the rear window must remain in the hardtop - can be lexan or glass but has to be there. This is a rule I'm guilty of having broken at a couple of events...oops... Your evil plans have thusly been thwarted!!!! Haaa!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Doing A point assessment shouldn't be very difficult. As an example only, where the rear of the roof meets the deck of the body an assessment could be given for how far to the rear the modified profile extends, say 10'' past stock +2, 20" past stock +5 . To be frank, I don't think such a high penalty should be given. Look at the early Mustang's. The coupe is lighter, F/B sleaker, but the chart shows no difference in points. Maybe if a Honda 2000 with a fastback hard top and a wing, now that might be different. The front valance would be a good example. You take the point hit because it's not a stock profile, no guarantee it's any better than stock. +5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 18, 2010 Author National Staff Share Posted December 18, 2010 Thank you, Greg. Your explanation definitely makes sense and seems fair. For the record, I've had my spoon-style hardtop long before I decided to go TT'ing. In fact, I sold my oem hardtop to pay for the one I currently have, which is just over 14#. It has never been my intention to break, or even bend, ANY rule, nor am I upset after spending a couple grand on the top a couple of years ago. What is to my dismay is that since the top is not air-tight, it is not reasonable to use it on the street. Now illegal (or always has been) for this type of competition- the type that I have been trying to help promote(TT) along with Jon, the market value of said top will decrease to almost nothing because the possible buyers will be significantly reduced- not NSA's problem at all. It is still legal in the higher classes such as TTS and TTU, and ST. BTW, just got an e-mail about a Miata "fastback" top that has a built in rear spoiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 18, 2010 Author National Staff Share Posted December 18, 2010 I just see this as a huge can of worms (and so does NASA). Lower TT and PT classes should have OEM body styles, with add-on's like wings, splitters, etc. If we threw on a point assessment, it would be based on the wildest possibilities, not necessarily what is actually available today. However, even what is available now may get you 10 or more extra points. I doubt we would have competitors saying, "Thanks for the 10/12/14 point assessment, at least I can drive in the next higher class". Instead, I'll get the e-mails telling us where to go with that point assessment. And, I'm not really interested in getting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 Again, thank you for your response. I had more of an asterisk's worth of points in mind as being harsh, but if those in the know thought it equated to a Hoosier R6 tire over a stock tire, so be it. I can tell you that it does not decrease lap times nearly as much as switching from RA-1's to R6's, let alone a generic street tire. In the same breath, I understand the need to have enforcibility. A single aero product can have an effect and points are assessed. Effectively combining aero products can definitely yield greater results than the sum of the individual points, and thusly I could understand the concern. Based on your add'l post- that someone just mailed you that Miatas also have that type of top- I'll assume that the S2000 folks were the offenders. I would like to offer for thought the following: our chapter requires that convertibles run top down, regardless of weather, unless a hardtop is present. Would one think that running top down and running with a hardtop are aerodynamic equals? Of course not, but the guy who spends $2k-3k gets that advantage in our region without being assessed points. Personally, I do not have a dog in this fight. I plan to continue promoting TT's and helping the Mid-A as long as I'm in the US. I just want to fully understand the logic and rationale so as to be able to disseminate it to those it might affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 I think that's smart Greg , Ban them in TTA and down. No point in a Pandora's Box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 hopefully this can be something that is continued to be looked at in future off-seasons to find a reasonable solution that allows the kind of modification freedom people have come to expect from the TT/PT/ST rulesets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 how about 500 bucks in your local directors had to get a pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 make it an even grand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 can we have a points assesment or a pass for Mugen style s2000 tops everyone runs? any aero advantage over OEM is slight everyone runs them because they are cheap ($1000). OEM even used go for $2500+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 can we have a points assesment or a pass for Mugen style s2000 tops everyone runs?any aero advantage over OEM is slight everyone runs them because they are cheap ($1000). OEM even used go for $2500+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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