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Classing my Turbo Miata in TTB, but it looks like TTS


hustler

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11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note passenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.

 

Here is the applicable rule in the CCR. Expired harnesses are fine for TT, but the passenger harness must be of equivalent quality to the driver. What do you mean by section 10 penalties?

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11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note passenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.

 

Here is the applicable rule in the CCR. Expired harnesses are fine for TT, but the passenger harness must be of equivalent quality to the driver. What do you mean by section 10 penalties?

 

6-point on both sides; I'd rather kill myself than my friends.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf

P 41:

As an added benefit for those that compete on a regular basis (especially those who’s cars require a trailer tow to get to an authorized tech station): In lieu of the usual HPDE vehicle technical inspection as outlined in the NASA CCR Section 11, a driver/owner that possesses a National NASA TT License may opt to follow a tech inspection process similar to that used by NASA racers in CCR Section 16, where the vehicle is issued a NASA TT inspection log book. However, the driver must also be the owner of the vehicle used, and must be competent to perform a vehicle technical inspection. As well, in doing so, the driver/owner takes on the same responsibilities that apply to racers. As such, any driver failing to properly prepare his/her car as required by the tech sheet may be subject to license revocation, monetary fines, disqualification, or other penalties. All vehicles will be subject to random safety inspections while at the track

facility. If at any time, illegal, non-conforming, or outdated safety equipment is found in or on the car, that equipment (in its entirety) will become the property of NASA. Additionally, the driver will be fined $50 for each separate offense, and will lose the privilege to forego the CCR Section 11 HPDE technical inspection process, and the logbook will be revoked. The same penalties shall apply if the driver/owner is found to have inaccurately performed the vehicle inspection, or falsified entries on the inspection sheet.

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What is a good rule of thumb for "wiggle room"? I have very little experience on the dyno (tuned about 10-cars on a Mustang) but I have not seen the dramatic fluctuations with air temps. Is 10whp enough smudge factor? Any thoughts on headroom for hp vs headroom for weight.

 

I think it's a combination of gearing advantage and torque, but this car at 232whp is faster than it should be. Is this a point worthy of consideration for classification? Dan, tell me if I'm out in left-field here.

 

lol, no such thing buddy, it's as fast as it should be given the cars weight, power, tires, etc... there's no such thing as magic!

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With spec C5Z in PTA next year it will be interesting.

 

should be interesting starting from scratch again, one thing to get a car set up fast for 2-3 laps, another for 30-40 mins. chassis set up, alignment, ride height, pressures, everything will be different.

 

I think you can have a healthy debate about which is better in TT(A), base C5 (TTB) or C5Z. For PTA w2w, the base C5 for sure would be the best platform.

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.

 

+2 non oem front sway = 39

+2 non oem rear sway = 41

Why are you taking 2 points for each sway bar? The rule says front, rear or both. Am I missing something?

 

e

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You figure it out Hustler? I've got a headache classing my miata too - wish the calculator was up and running...

I've been dragging my feet on getting the car on scales but everyone wants so much damn money I'm going to drive it on the scale at the city dump and shoot from the hip, then mail my stuff in.

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I've been dragging my feet on getting the car on scales but everyone wants so much damn money I'm going to drive it on the scale at the city dump and shoot from the hip, then mail my stuff in.

If you've got a truck stop anywhere near you with CAT scales it'll only cost $8 to get a certified weigh...

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As an added benefit for those that compete on a regular basis (especially those who’s cars require a trailer tow to get to an authorized tech station): In lieu of the usual HPDE vehicle technical inspection as outlined in the NASA CCR Section 11, a driver/owner that possesses a National NASA TT License may opt to follow a tech inspection process similar to that used by NASA racers in CCR Section 16, where the vehicle is issued a NASA TT inspection log book. However, the driver must also be the owner of the vehicle used, and must be competent to perform a vehicle technical inspection. As well, in doing so, the driver/owner takes on the same responsibilities that apply to racers. As such, any driver failing to properly prepare his/her car as required by the tech sheet may be subject to license revocation, monetary fines, disqualification, or other penalties. All vehicles will be subject to random safety inspections while at the track

facility. If at any time, illegal, non-conforming, or outdated safety equipment is found in or on the car, that equipment (in its entirety) will become the property of NASA. Additionally, the driver will be fined $50 for each separate offense, and will lose the privilege to forego the CCR Section 11 HPDE technical inspection process, and the logbook will be revoked. The same penalties shall apply if the driver/owner is found to have inaccurately performed the vehicle inspection, or falsified entries on the inspection sheet.

 

you're mixing racer and HPDE (which includes TT) sections. Pick one and run with its allowances and requirements

I'm a little confused by your suggestion that TT is included under HPDE. The section I quoted specifically speaks to an outdated harness. Section 10.1 does NOT refer to a difference in HPDE/TT or mention this in any capacity. I also still need clarification on the allowance of a 3-year old belt on the passenger side.

 

I assume that if my belts are considered "too old" I can simply run the stock seat-belt instead? $200 in a harness after all I've spent is starting to make me sick. With the threat of fines and seizures I want to take no chances on interpretation.

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10.1 in the TT rules refers you to section 11.0 in the general CCR for specific safety requirements:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

 

Section 11.0 in the general CCR covers HPDE and TT

Section 15.0 in the general CCR covers Racing

 

you sounded like you were quoting items from section 15.0 in the CCRs above, hence my statement. Now I see that you were not, my bad.

 

you probably want to look at 11.4.8 in the CCR specifically - pg 44 printed, pg 57 in the file

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note passenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side. Note- no four point belt

systems will be allowed after April 1, 2011, regardless of DOT certification or approval.

Edited by Guest
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Thanks Ken, you just saved me $300 with Crow Enterprises. I guess I can put that toward my transponder purchase. I'm taking a road trip this weekend to a Cat scale toward the Oklahoma border...then I have to get to putting huge vinyl numbers on my street car, lol.

 

Trey

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Wouldn't hurt to flip through all of section 11 in the CCR, and to follow up in any other sections it may refer you to (like to section 15 for harness mounting guidelines / requirements)

 

Hope that helps!

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Ok guys, I promise to STFU about this after this post. I finally got the heap weighed, what are safe "buffer" numbers to use so I won't throw a foul on the scales or in case of dyno issue? I used a Cat trucker scale in a pinch, I'll have more reliable numbers in Houston in a couple weeks but I need to get this car classed ASAP so I can get vinyl made.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just weighed at on real scales, and it's a good thing I did...plus the cross weights are UGLY

728 | 588

534 | 578

2425 w/driver, less than 1/4 fuel, no helmet.

 

add 5lb helmet

add 5lb aluminum trailer hitch

(2425+10)/10.25=237whp allowable

2435/233=10.27

 

So lets say I have to put my car on the dyno at an event and I make 238whp. Will NASA recalculate the ratio and take my current weight or look at the HP number alone?

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If you dyno reclass, you have to be at or under your designated HP AND at or over your designated weight. No recalculation of hp/wt will be done and you will be DQ'd unless you have points to make up for the extra HP and/or weight.

 

If you CAN account for your violation with points then you will be assessed a "procedural violation". Then you'll lose your times from that day only. There's a formula in the TT rules for this in 6.5.3.

 

Oh, and you also have to be legal by class rules (hp/wt) as well. Just because you got a dyno reclass doesn't mean that you can NECESSARILY run the maximum HP and minimum weight that you were assigned.

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I just weighed at on real scales, and it's a good thing I did...plus the cross weights are UGLY

728 | 588

534 | 578

2425 w/driver, less than 1/4 fuel, no helmet.

 

add 5lb helmet

add 5lb aluminum trailer hitch

(2425+10)/10.25=237whp allowable

2435/233=10.27

 

So lets say I have to put my car on the dyno at an event and I make 238whp. Will NASA recalculate the ratio and take my current weight or look at the HP number alone?

 

yeah, none of that hp/weight matters when you get reclassed, you have to be under the whp you gave to greg. you have to be over the comp. weight. weight is easy, (DON'T RUN UNDER HALF A TANK!) if you are close in weight. whp = turn down the boost, or richen it up a little? pull timing? you should have followed sixace's recommendations.

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Remember you still have to be legal under the power to weight limits for your class whether classified on points or under dyno re-class

I just weighed at on real scales, and it's a good thing I did...plus the cross weights are UGLY

728 | 588

534 | 578

2425 w/driver, less than 1/4 fuel, no helmet.

 

add 5lb helmet

add 5lb aluminum trailer hitch

(2425+10)/10.25=237whp allowable

2435/233=10.27

 

So lets say I have to put my car on the dyno at an event and I make 238whp. Will NASA recalculate the ratio and take my current weight or look at the HP number alone?

 

yeah, none of that hp/weight matters when you get reclassed, you have to be under the whp you gave to greg. you have to be over the comp. weight. weight is easy, (DON'T RUN UNDER HALF A TANK!) if you are close in weight. whp = turn down the boost, or richen it up a little? pull timing? you should have followed sixace's recommendations.

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What the last 3 people said - go read it again. With a chassis as good as the Miata's you should not be close to the adjusted hp/w limit that comes back from Greg as you'll make time on cars that can't turn in the twisty stuff - it'll balance out if you're driving as well as they are.

 

and hey Ken, why do you keep italicizing or bolding the word adjusted when you talk about hp/w limits in TT, PT, and ST classing? Glad you asked Ken - its because there are ADJUSTMENTS you have to factor in for tire widths, tire type, weight, and a few other odds and ends that make it FAR from a straight up hp/weight calculation.

 

- KB, headed for the looney bin because you people don't listen

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I obviously cannot see the forest for the trees, and I thank everyone for hanging in here with me to help me understand this properly so I don't get the boot.

In order to get an engine swap approved, I request that you submit to me the following information (by e-mail, not PM) so that I can rapidly assess your swap. Incomplete requests will take much longer to process. Most vehicles will need to have certified chassis dyno testing and weight measurement to be classed:

 

1) Engine donor vehicle--year, make, model

2) Engine--model #/name, disp, #cyl, valvetrain/var. valve timing?, hp/tq

3) Receiving vehicle--year, make, model, subtype and trim type (if applicable), curb weight

4) Your car's specific data if available--dyno hp/tq, minimum competition weight (w/driver)

5) Your name, planned series (TT, PT or both), your home region, any other region you plan to compete with in the

near future.

 

Note: Most cars will be now be re-classified based on dyno testing and minimum competition weight.

 

All aftermarket forced induction and modified OEM turbos or superchargers, as well as all cars with aftermarket heads, increased number of camshafts/hybrid engines, and ported rotary engines will need to be re-classed based on their actual chassis dyno hp and competition weight. All FWD and RWD cars need to be tested on a Dynojet brand dynamometer. AWD cars can be tested on a Dynojet, Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, or Dynapack dynamometer, but the number submitted must take into account that the car must be legal on any of the four brands of dynamometers listed above. Note: Mustang and Dyno Dynamics often read 10% or more lower than the others. Compliance testing will depend on what type of dynamometer is available to NASA officials for AWD cars. All compliance testing for 2WD cars will be on a Dynojet.

Thanks.

I also went back and read page 24, section C:

1)Engine swap: All engine swaps must be evaluated for new base classification by the National TT Director on an individual basis, unless a base class for the particular swap is listed above in 6.3 Base Classifications or in Appendix A. The following factors will be taken into account in classing the car: wt./hp ratio, total weight, high torque in the usable rpm range, body style, engine location, drivetrain type, advanced technology/engineering in OEM suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and aerodynamics, and dry sumps (if engine is lowered). Competitors should submit all of the above data to the National TT Director by e-mail with the request for re-classification of the vehicle. Most engine swaps will require chassis dynamometer testing of the competition-ready vehicle and submittal of the Minimum Competition Weight chosen by the competitor. (see section 6.5)

2)Increased number of camshafts, non-OEM (non-stock) head(s)/hybrids, port modified rotary engines, and non-OEM/upgraded/modified turbo or superchargers: engine swap rules with Dyno testing apply—must be evaluated by the National TT Director for reclassification. (see section 6.5 Dyno Re-classing and Testing Procedures) All OEM naturally aspirated vehicles that have been upgraded to forced induction and forced induction vehicles with an upgraded or modified turbo or supercharger must be evaluated by the National TT Director on an individual basis for new base classification based on chassis dynamometer testing and actual vehicle weight as in C.1) above and in Section 6.5 Dyno Reclassing.

After re-classification, modification points will not be assessed for weight reduction or engine. However, if the power output of the vehicle is later increased, the participant will have to get the vehicle re-classified again.

I take 15-points so I should not be up-classed, thanks to running a 225 tire.

 

I apologize for what you've perceived as "not listening." I've hung on every word, but misinterpreted a the re-classing procedure in regards to weight/power. I appreciate you spoon feeding this information.

 

I'm not sure if I should spend my $60 on TTB or TTA vinyl since I have 4-days to "make it happen" or run DE again..I'm a little out of energy at the moment to give a shit anymore.

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