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dans2k

New OEM Hardtop Rule G 2

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dans2k

2. No aero points for adding a hardtop to a convertible or removal of convertible soft top/frame. Hardtop must be OEM/OEM option or OEM/OEM option shape and size only, and must use a rear window. (i.e., lightweight ok, but no tops with non-OEM aero features).

 

I don't disagree with banning aero tops but a blanket ban on non-OEM hardtops bans the only affordable S2000 hardtop.

This excludes a bunch of people who already have this top and removed their softtop from TT events.

 

 

OEM hardtop, new from honda: $3500, used $2500+

white_oem_med.jpg

 

 

Mugen style hardtop, new from ebay: $800~1200 used ~$1000

silver_mugen_med.jpg

 

I can't realy see that the difference in rear profile between the mugen style and OEM you can seriously disqualify it on aero grounds.

I looked on ebay and most other convertibles I could think of have far more affordable OEM hardtops.

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awdracer

The rules allow for a hardtop of the same size and shape. Does this exist? Are all aftermarket hard tops greatly different in shape. What would disqualify the Mugen hard top?

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SNAKBITN

The top does go further back.Why couldn't there be points added for aero instead of a dq and call it done.

just my .02

 

Robert

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wlfpkrcn1

Run without the hard top. That's free

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awdracer
The top does go further back.Why couldn't there be points added for aero instead of a dq and call it done.

just my .02

 

Robert

 

He may be out of points. The thing to do would be to have someone take measurements and certify that the aftermarket piece has the same dimensions. Also, Robert, I think that both tops extend the same amount to the rear. There is glass on the white car that isn't visible due to the black background.... I think.

 

Are all of the aftermarket pieces advertized to have better aero? I wouldn't assume that all of them would be a points mod right out of the box.

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wlfpkrcn1

 

He may be out of points. The thing to do would be to have someone take measurements and certify that the aftermarket piece has the same dimensions. Also, Robert, I think that both tops extend the same amount to the rear. There is glass on the white car that isn't visible due to the black background.... I think.

 

Are all of the aftermarket pieces advertized to have better aero? I wouldn't assume that all of them would be a points mod right out of the box.

 

If you look close and use the fuel door as a reference point. It looks like the aftermarket meets the body further back (closer to fuel door) or use the bumper cover and where it ends at the wheel well

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SNAKBITN

What he said.How many different style tops are available?They may have to be accessed differently.That would be a pain in the a$$ if there several to choose from.

 

Robert

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TWI

I am not aerodynamics expert but it seems that the big aero benefit from one of the aftermarket tops will be related to (a) the angle of the rear portion and (b) how far back the top extends.

 

Perhaps there is a moderately simple formula that could have the appropriate impact while still allowing the inexpensive aftermarket tops. Say +2 for any deviation from stock profile and +1 for each inch beyond the stock rearmost mounting point that the aftermarket top extends. That would put a moderate penalty on the "near stock" tops like the one pictured above and a significant penalty on the tops that replicate a fastback which are the ones that are designed for a true aerodynamic advantage.

 

I don't have a dog in the fight, but that is my $.02

 

Tal

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dans2k
I am not aerodynamics expert but it seems that the big aero benefit from one of the aftermarket tops will be related to (a) the angle of the rear portion and (b) how far back the top extends.

 

Perhaps there is a moderately simple formula that could have the appropriate impact while still allowing the inexpensive aftermarket tops. Say +2 for any deviation from stock profile and +1 for each inch beyond the stock rearmost mounting point that the aftermarket top extends. That would put a moderate penalty on the "near stock" tops like the one pictured above and a significant penalty on the tops that replicate a fastback which are the ones that are designed for a true aerodynamic advantage.

 

I don't have a dog in the fight, but that is my $.02

 

Tal

 

I think this top should be points free being that any aero advantage of it coming back a few inches over OEM is insignificant.

It seems most other convertibles OEM tops are significantly cheaper than OEM s2000 tops, this is the only cheap option for s2000's.

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wlfpkrcn1

 

I think this top should be points free being that any aero advantage of it coming back a few inches over OEM is insignificant.

It seems most other convertibles OEM tops are significantly cheaper than OEM s2000 tops, this is the only cheap option for s2000's.

 

I disagree. Any aero help is better than none at all. Why should one person be allowed to have it free when others would have to spend points because the don't have a convertible and would have to add a wing or spoiler to add aero.

 

As far as the S2000 having a more expensive top.. That falls into the every frog has it's warts. It sucks, but it is part of racing the car of your choice. We all take points for things other cars get for free. Racing is expensive, and cost should not play a part in how many points you take.

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awdracer

 

If you look close and use the fuel door as a reference point. It looks like the aftermarket meets the body further back (closer to fuel door) or use the bumper cover and where it ends at the wheel well

 

You're right.

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obzezzed350

I agree that a non-oem style hard top should not be a free mod since you are already getting a great zero point option with an oem hardtop, regardless of the cost.

 

If I had to think of a fair point value, I cant see a non oem hardtop creating any where near the aero advantage of a rear wing (+4) but maybe more than a vortex generator (+1). So maybe its somewhere in the middle at +2 or something.

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dans2k

 

I think this top should be points free being that any aero advantage of it coming back a few inches over OEM is insignificant.

It seems most other convertibles OEM tops are significantly cheaper than OEM s2000 tops, this is the only cheap option for s2000's.

 

I disagree. Any aero help is better than none at all. Why should one person be allowed to have it free when others would have to spend points because the don't have a convertible and would have to add a wing or spoiler to add aero.

 

As far as the S2000 having a more expensive top.. That falls into the every frog has it's warts. It sucks, but it is part of racing the car of your choice. We all take points for things other cars get for free. Racing is expensive, and cost should not play a part in how many points you take.

 

The point you are missing is its simply a cheaper than OEM part with no realistic aero advantage over OEM just cheaper

 

Banning all non-OEM tops excludes many drivers who are already using this part and forces anyone with an s2000 who wants a hardtop to spend thousands of dollars.

 

I agree that real "Aero tops" that do give an advantage should take points or be banned.

I don't see why you would ban a top a lot of people already use that is practically the same as OEM just significantly cheaper its a bad rule.

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wlfpkrcn1

I understand it is cheaper. It also does not match the OEM top. Therefore it is a points mod. Regardless of how minimal the aero advantage of the aftermarket top is. It is still better/different that the OE. Therefore not a free mod. If you do not want to buy a factory top and you do not want to take points for body mod/aero, then take off the aftermarket hardtop and run it topless. Running without the hardtop does not cost you any points or out of pocket money. You have $1000 to spend on tires.

 

 

Racing is expensive. Regardless of the car, class etc. Cost of parts does not and should not affect how many points you take. If that were true the guys with Z06 Vettes would have it made. They run the biggest most expensive tires. They have big expensive brakes. They have 2 headers to our one so the should get a break there. Where would you stop giving stuff up based on cost of parts?

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TrackRat

It really comes down to picking your car. I have a mid-engine car. I have another penalty there over any front engine car. Does this give me an advantage? Nope - just the penalty. But it's the car I picked. I you don't like the rules applied to a Stook, go buy another car. Personally, I deal with the penalty I've dealt with my mid-engine car...

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dans2k
It really comes down to picking your car. I have a mid-engine car. I have another penalty there over any front engine car. Does this give me an advantage? Nope - just the penalty. But it's the car I picked. I you don't like the rules applied to a Stook, go buy another car. Personally, I deal with the penalty I've dealt with my mid-engine car...

 

 

yea but mid-engineed vs front engine actualy makes a difference

mid-engineed vs front engine is not a bad rule that was just thought up and pointlessly costs you a bunch of money for no benefit

 

there are cars running the cheaper hardtop that makes no aero difference that this rule simply bans

 

there are a lot of track cars with no softtop and some regions you cannot run without a hardtop

 

asking people to go and buy a $2500 hardtop because you banned their cheap hardtop when it makes no aero difference is stupid!

 

its a bad rule!!

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D_Eclipse9916
It really comes down to picking your car. I have a mid-engine car. I have another penalty there over any front engine car. Does this give me an advantage? Nope - just the penalty. But it's the car I picked. I you don't like the rules applied to a Stook, go buy another car. Personally, I deal with the penalty I've dealt with my mid-engine car...

 

 

yea but mid-engineed vs front engine actualy makes a difference

mid-engineed vs front engine is not a bad rule that was just thought up and pointlessly costs you a bunch of money for no benefit

 

there are cars running the cheaper hardtop that makes no aero difference that this rule simply bans

 

there are a lot of track cars with no softtop and some regions you cannot run without a hardtop

 

asking people to go and buy a $2500 hardtop because you banned their cheap hardtop when it makes no aero difference is stupid!

 

its a bad rule!!

 

Every frog has it's warts as they say. You gotta pick and choose, every car has its advantages and disadvantages. Allowing "exceptions" to certain cars for points rules only makes the system more needlessly complicated. Your car is base classed GIVEN how it is and how "easily" moddable it is.

 

And anyhow, how can you prove that the Mugen Top has absolutely ZERO aero advantage? Looks lto me like it has a "slight" advantage that youd never notice, but its still an advantage, meaning you take points.

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dans2k
Allowing "exceptions" to certain cars for points rules only makes the system more needlessly complicated. Your car is base classed GIVEN how it is and how "easily" moddable it is.

 

I agree but you misunderstand - this is not even a points mod. The new rules have simply banned something that a lot of people already have and makes no difference except costing about $1500 less than the OEM version.

 

What would you think about a new rule so we all have to buy OEM rotors from the dealer at $100 a piece when we can get knockoffs on ebay for $25?

it would be pretty stupid to pay 4 times as much money for the same thing and the hardtop rule is the same

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wlfpkrcn1

I do not have a convertible. I can not change my roof line. You want to change yours for zero points because you do not believe it has an advantage it only costs you money. How much money is acceptable for me to spend to change my roofline on a RX7 without taking points? Nobody cares how much it costs you. You chose to build a S2000 with a $3500 hardtop. Deal with it or don't run a hardtop on NASA TT weekends. This is pointless. If you own a Mugen type hardtop remove it. Why keep harping on the cost. It is not a stock replacement. It does not fit the same as stock. It does not keep a stock roofline. Therefore it should not be accepted as a stock replacement. So the question for you is.... Why is it so important to run a hardtop on a S2000? Why not run topless? The rules allow it so why not pull it off?

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Greg G.

How bout some truth in advertising? Here are the photos of the Mugen from other angles. As well, if you go on the S2000 websites and forums, you can easily find references by owners stating the the Mugen is at least one inch lower than the OEM top, and has been "proven" to have aerodynamic superiority to the OEM hardtop. As well, here is a quote from one website selling it:

"Perhaps the most exciting product available for an S2000, the Mugen hardtop combines leading edge design and manufacturing technology to provide a product that has no equal. In an effort to optimize aerodynamics extensive wind tunnel testing was performed in full scale "rolling road" format."

http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EM&Product_Code=69000-XGS-K0S0

 

King-Motorsports-Mugen-Honda-S2000-Top-1024x768.jpg

Mugen%20Hardtop.jpg

twincamtech_2139_156809632

s2000_top3.jpg

 

Here is the OEM:

l_fb4e34041cf8c437260f9e180afa0f88.jpg

 

 

Here is the Spoon S2000 hardtop:

spoon.ap.hardtop_d.jpg

s2k3.jpg&t=1

 

Here is a Miata Fastback top:

sema_08_1333.jpg

 

As you can see, some are better than others, and some have extra aero features. All are better than OEM.

When discussing this rule recently with someone on e-mail, there was a mention first that if we did put a point value to the Mugen top as a waiver, that it would have to be enough points to justify it as a waiver, and that undoubtedly the drivers would complain it is too many points. Then, I later told him that it looked like it would need to be 4-5 points. This idea was considered ridiculous. It is not going to be our problem or expense to put various tops through wind tunnel testing, or take a specific car model like an S2000 or a Miata, and run it with one of our expert drivers both with and without a specific top to determine the "correct" point value. And, if you aren't going to be using the OEM hardtop equivalent, why can't all other vehicles have their tops modified and lowered for aero advantages?

 

Lastly, these are $30K+ cars new. Some of you are now spending $5000 on just the shocks for them. Nobody is requiring you to run a hardtop, but even with a CF hardtop you need adequate roll protection with this car.

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IGZOSTD

You s2000 drivers would be getting off easy with a 5 point assessment for that Mugen lid. I know you all would throw a fit if I was allowed to lower my roof line and add side dam's for no points. You're beating a dead horse.

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TurboShortBus
Run without the hard top. That's free

+1

 

Note that the following is based on my region's requirement that all convertibles must run with the folding top down. Your region's policy may or may not vary.

 

Did that OEM hardtop automatically come on the base model S2000, or was it an option? If it's the latter, then you should be thanking your lucky stars that it is a 0 point modification.

 

A Spec Miata racer has told me that running without the OEM hardtop in place kills 4 mph in the 100 mph range; another told me that removing the OEM hardtop would add 2 seconds per lap at Sebring. A Camaro-Mustang Challenge driver with a convertible Mustang told me that he was at a disadvantage to the other cars at any speed over 100 mph. With that being said, an OEM hardtop will be a bigger advantage at higher speeds than having the top down, and you're getting it for free.

 

If you want various points exceptions for non-OEM S2000 hardtops, then I'm going to get my "other" Mustang (a 1994 convertible) and ask for various points exceptions for non-OEM hardtops that fit it. Then, the Miata guys will get in line and ask for the same thing. Then, everybody else...do you see what will happen? The rule book section for hardtop aero will be a foot thick. Note that you do not own the only convertible in town.

 

My TTD car is a 2004 Mustang, which is basically a 1978 Fairmont. I picked a turd that was designed in the mid 1970s; I have to live with that, and I'm fine with it. If I felt that there was a major flaw in the car's design that kept me from being competitive, then I would sell the car and start over with something that is more competitive. But, ultimately, it was my choice, just as driving an S2000 was your choice.

 

Rules change, and not always for the better. Ask any 1999-2005 Miata driver what he/she thinks about the 101 lbs that were recently added to that car's base weight.

 

This all goes back to the usual frog/warts analogy. Some things in this world just cost more than others, and that's why I drive an el cheapo Mustang.

 

Mark

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kbrew8991
Rules change, and not always for the better. Ask any 1999-2005 Miata driver what he/she thinks about the 101 lbs that were recently added to that car's base weight.

 

it really sucks when the loophole you're exploiting gets slammed shut in your face eh?

 

Seems to me that it might be worth listing as a points mod since there is such an outcry for it. Shrug.

 

And if I were an S2000 guy I'd be on the phone to Mugen or whoever right this second to see if they'd get to work on an OEM profile one. Just needs to be OEM profile, not weight or anything else...

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dans2k

As you can see, some are better than others, and some have extra aero features. All are better than OEM.

When discussing this rule recently with someone on e-mail, there was a mention first that if we did put a point value to the Mugen top as a waiver, that it would have to be enough points to justify it as a waiver, and that undoubtedly the drivers would complain it is too many points. Then, I later told him that it looked like it would need to be 4-5 points. This idea was considered ridiculous. It is not going to be our problem or expense to put various tops through wind tunnel testing, or take a specific car model like an S2000 or a Miata, and run it with one of our expert drivers both with and without a specific top to determine the "correct" point value. And, if you aren't going to be using the OEM hardtop equivalent, why can't all other vehicles have their tops modified and lowered for aero advantages?

 

Lastly, these are $30K+ cars new. Some of you are now spending $5000 on just the shocks for them. Nobody is requiring you to run a hardtop, but even with a CF hardtop you need adequate roll protection with this car.

 

 

Look at the rear profile of a C5 FRC vs a C5 coupe, with the way the coupe slopes would make a difference in laptimes? is it worth 4-5 points?

 

I agree the Spoon and other "aero" tops should be banned or assessed points.

 

The difference between the mugen style and OEM is marginal at best, of course the manufacturer of any quality JDM tuning parts will tell you X,Y,Z was wind tunnel tested blah blah blah but look at the profiles.

 

The s2000 is the only convertible where the OEM top costs $2500+ USED!

 

I don't see why its a problem to make an alternative approved hardtop available where the OEM top is prohibitively expensive.

There are only a few convertibles that even fall under this rule so there is no chance the rules will get overly complicated.

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kbrew8991
Just needs to be OEM profile, not weight or anything else...

 

AHEM

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