kbrew8991 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think that if you can get your friends to come out they'll find that yeah, maybe one tiny rule did change for the worse in their eyes, BUT, new management is making things better for everyone and that includes us TTers as well. Do you think last year we would've ever had a pair of special TT-only sessions where half the classes went out just to ensure that everyone would have TONS of clean clear track time to show what they've got? Keep working with us little regional people, and we'll keep pushing for the changes you guys need to make the ruleset work for everyone. That might mean some comprimises when it comes to items like this though, but its not the end of the world or a holocaust either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Or, like I was told for 3 years of tracking a vert but refused to listen until I finally caved and now I offer the same advice to people that track verts and refuse to listen: Buy a car with a roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 If this thread makes it to 30 pages will you let them have a line in the aero section for non-OEM shape hardtops so they can at least run 'em? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 24, 2011 National Staff Share Posted February 24, 2011 Maybe But only if: 1): We can get to 30 pages without us being compared to fascist dictators and genocidal maniacs by some Equus asinus out there. 2): If "they" ask for it again by e-mail. The last time it was offered I received more than one less than polite and complimentary e-mail. Points would be assessed conservatively, especially for fastback tops if we even permitted them. I would also have to convince NASA executives because at this point, they said to just forget about it, stop wasting my time, and let the drivers run with the current options they have (No top, OEM hard top, soft top in the regions that allow them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixace Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Damn. All these years I thought "SS" meant "Super Sport" (ducking). As a miata driver, I have a horse in this race. My .02 is make aftermarket, "non oem shape HT" a point line item, not outright ban. 3pts, 5pts, whatever. Plan your build around it. It's a can of worms for sure (envision molded in aero, etc.), but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater by saying oem tops should get points too. (Do the c5 z06's have removable ht's?). I'm curious about those regions requiring converts to run top down. Reasoning? Do they then require arm restraints? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 24, 2011 National Staff Share Posted February 24, 2011 The soft top metal frame parts can quickly turn into Ginsu knives in a rollover Yes, convertible drivers should be wearing arm restraints if they like their arms, hands, fingers. There is no plan to make OEM hard tops on convertibles a points assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The soft top metal frame parts can quickly turn into Ginsu knives in a rollover Ginsu knives, kabob skewers, etc. Yes, convertible drivers should be wearing arm restraints if they like their arms, hands, fingers. Should is the operative word here. There are currently no convertible/arm restraint requirements in the HPDE section of the CCR, which governs TT. Of course, that's not to say that you can't opt to buy a $30 set of arm restraints for added safety, but it's not like you will be turned away at HPDE/TT tech inspection if you don't have them. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Yes, convertible drivers should be wearing arm restraints if they like their arms, hands, fingers. Should is the operative word here. There are currently no convertible/arm restraint requirements in the HPDE section of the CCR, which governs TT. Of course, that's not to say that you can't opt to buy a $30 set of arm restraints for added safety, but it's not like you will be turned away at HPDE/TT tech inspection if you don't have them. Mark Some tracks require them. Barber comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bars Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Maybe But only if: 1): We can get to 30 pages without us being compared to fascist dictators and genocidal maniacs by some Equus asinus out there. 2): If "they" ask for it again by e-mail. The last time it was offered I received more than one less than polite and complimentary e-mail. Points would be assessed conservatively, especially for fastback tops if we even permitted them. I would also have to convince NASA executives because at this point, they said to just forget about it, stop wasting my time, and let the drivers run with the current options they have (No top, OEM hard top, soft top in the regions that allow them). Please define "us" Scratch that, doesn't matter. "You guys" are right, "we" need to shut up and deal with it. Sorry it took so long for "us" to understand. Who do we think we are? The nerve of us. If we can't afford the 3k hardtop, we need to buy another car, like a mustang or vette. Or just run hpde like "you guys" said. Man we're dumb. Sometimes it takes us a while to learn our place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 25, 2011 National Staff Share Posted February 25, 2011 Please define "us" Scratch that, doesn't matter. "You guys" are right, "we" need to shut up and deal with it. Sorry it took so long for "us" to understand. Who do we think we are? The nerve of us. If we can't afford the 3k hardtop, we need to buy another car, like a mustang or vette. Or just run hpde like "you guys" said. Man we're dumb. Sometimes it takes us a while to learn our place. "Us" would be those of "Us" who started the series from scratch, developed it over the past 7 years, brought it to the stage of multiple National Championships, brought it to all NASA regions including those that resisted it for years, helped bring literally thousands of drivers into the series, administrate the series at over 150 events per year with no pay, come on these Forums to help educate those seeking assistance, and now get compared to slaveholders and Nazis by YOU! My TT and PT Directors neither deserve your comparison to slaveholders or Nazis or your oh so humerus sarcasm above. Perhaps the next time you decide to touch a keyboard you should read the entire thread, and if you want to continue to post on these Forums, I suggest you re-calibrate immediately. I'm not going to lock this thread due to one person. I'll just delete him from the Forums. It has been said numerous times that there was an offer made by "us" to make a points assessment for the non-OEM hard top from the beginning. Those that requested the waiver by e-mail (which is the only way to either request a waiver or request a rule change) to run a non-OEM top without an assessment declined the offer and thought that it was ridiculous. Since then, the NASA Executives decided not to offer it again. Only today was there another request. It is not a matter of who is right or wrong, it is a matter of what the rules say. A huge loophole was closed in the 2011 revision whether you agree or not. If we lose a few drivers who are unwilling to adjust, but save hundreds of others who would consider themselves at a huge disadvantage due to a loophole, then so be it. The adjustment at this time for those with convertibles is 1) run with the top down, 2) run with an OEM top, 3) run with an aftermarket top that is the OEM top shape and size. The fourth option was for a points assessment, but was declined by those requesting the reconsideration of the rule. Any points assessment for a non-OEM top would have to be conservative, meaning that it would have to be more points than the owner (but not necessarily his competitor) will think is too many points. This is because the rule can potentially be exploited, just as we have seen done by various manufacturers of aftermarket parts and/or drivers building their own parts, and there is going to be a substantial argument (already made here) that those without convertibles will want to modify, remove, or replace their tops with non-OEM tops. "We/Us" think that is a very valid argument, which is one reason why the fourth option will either remain off the table, or will have a decently high points value to ensure that this does not become a modification that every one of the thousands of TT and PT owners needs to do to remain competitive. BTW, these Forums are for discussion, education, and disseminating information, not for writing or re-writing rules. Requests for rules revisions are only accepted by e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettedoctor Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Just in case anyone doesn't feel like reading through 24 pages of repetition here are the cliff notes. Can I run an aftermarket top for no points? No But it’s almost the same thing as the OEM top Almost doesn’t count, never will! But an OEM top is really expensive So what, no one ever said racing is cheap! So what am I supposed to do? Top up, Top down, OEM top Nazis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 It has been said numerous times that there was an offer made by "us" to make a points assessment for the non-OEM hard top from the beginning. Those that requested the waiver by e-mail (which is the only way to either request a waiver or request a rule change) to run a non-OEM top without an assessment declined the offer and thought that it was ridiculous. I didn't mean to be rude I just wrote the first thing that came to my mind when you said the top might get 7 points. Since I don't run one I didn't see it was my place to be the guy who said ok to 7 points for it. I think its rididulous I am the only one who sent an email! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
949Racing Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I think its rididulous I am the only one who sent an email! You are not the only one who sent an email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixace Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 It has been said numerous times that there was an offer made by "us" to make a points assessment for the non-OEM hard top from the beginning. Those that requested the waiver by e-mail (which is the only way to either request a waiver or request a rule change) to run a non-OEM top without an assessment declined the offer and thought that it was ridiculous. I didn't mean to be rude I just wrote the first thing that came to my mind when you said the top might get 7 points. Since I don't run one I didn't see it was my place to be the guy who said ok to 7 points for it. I think its rididulous I am the only one who sent an email! Alot of us are passionate and have considerable investments involved and change is hard to take sometimes. For example, I recently flipped out when I received my new classification with the new miata base weight change. I tilted pretty hard and knee-jerked by canceling my entry to my regions upcoming event. I eventually calmed down, unbunched my panties, and through several emails came to an understanding. Do I like it? Not really. Do I accept it? Sure. Still gotta have my fix so I'll make some lemonade. Voicing passionate opinions and views is healthy and productive. But it's a line that can be crossed in a second and difficult to recover from. A fine president once said "you will catch more files with a drop of honey than with a gallon of gall". Great view to have. But when the red mist comes, you find yourself in the wall more often than not. Learn from it, rebuild, move on as a better person. Preachy soapbox mode off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 OK boys and girls, we still have 6 more pages to the finish line, don't DNF. No Man Hugs please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hustler Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvetthead Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bars Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 what wrong with my bedazzled lighter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I was curious how close these tops were to each other. After looking at them, I think points for anything not OEM (or exact copy of OEM if available like we have for drivetrain/suspension/exhaust components) would be the most reasonable rule. These tops are quite a bit different on the sides and the back and a regional TT director should not have to make a judgment call if these changes make a difference or not. And to help Greg get to 30 pages: What kind of aero points would you take for the channel in the middle of this hardtop, which doesn't appear to be in the factory hardtop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob O Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 That channel in the replica top is "part" of the reason the replica manufacturer "claims" "lower than OEM". I think the very rear of the replica top starts the decline toward the trunk a little bit earlier than OEM and reach toward the trunk an inch further as well. Over all, not OEM EXACT I will agree. Look at pics of both tops from the exact same view and "black out" the OEM glass, so it doesn't apear to be a straight 90 degree drop, and you will see there is very little difference. After all, they mount to the front windshield frame in the exact same place as well as the rear of the car. You can even use the factory mounting hardware. Sorry fellow S2000 owners, and all convertable owners for that matter, that I am just now jumping in here. Shame on me. I'm still in DE and did not feel my 2 cents would mean anything to the powers to be. I will be sending an email to Greg today in hopes that eventually we can use this type top with points added. I was just going to pay my way out of this purchase mistake but now I'm tired of searching the boards, ebay and craiglist for a used OEM top that is priced reasonable. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 its pitifull realy to watch people try to justify banning a top thats practically the same as OEM because they couldn't be botherred to write a proper rule to deal with real aero tops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 its pitifull realy to watch people try to justify banning a top thats practically the same as OEM because they couldn't be botherred to write a proper rule to deal with real aero tops it's been layed out how to get your knockoff tops approved, your posts like that probably won't help though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 its pitifull realy to watch people try to justify banning a top thats practically the same as OEM because they couldn't be botherred to write a proper rule to deal with real aero tops I don't think anyone in this thread is intent on banning the tops. Most who don't currently own an aftermarket top are arguing that you have to take points for them (as was suggested by Greg). Sure you might not be taking full advantage of the benefit of the points, but that is your choice. Just like everyone taking points for a factory option spoiler or air dam. That's how most of the rules are set up. Parts with gradations in points are for points which are easily discernable (compression, shock features, etc). I'm taking points for additional attachment points for my cage. Just because I don't think it does much doesn't mean it should be points free. I understand that on some cars it can make a huge difference to the stiffness of the car and so there are points assigned to it. I made my choice and I deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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