Rob O Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 does this mean you're runing TT then rob? Not yet Dan, still in DE3. Well, just started DE3 but it should not be long. I don't plan on running TT too long as I would rather run wheel to wheel in PT or HC. now its cheaper to get a cage than fully prep the car for TT with an OEM top I'm thinking about running H2! We could have a good little group of honda challenge s2000's down here in the south-east I've been thinking the same thing all along. HC is what got me most excited about the NASA program but in 07 and 08 there were a few more cars. I'm working on a few S2000 owners from Nashville but it seems they all want a different class. I think I would have to go H1 if I did HC though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 ok so I was at the track and got to take a look at both tops and basically they are the same height (except the central channel oin the mugen that could be filled) also they extend back the same except the mugen at the side comes back a bit further OEM roofline: Mugen roofline: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 having looked at a few cars with hardtops I realise I'm sitting in my car with a bunch of metal struts and shit sitting about 2" from my head I think its a safety issue cars should be encouraged to use a hardtop rather than making it expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 ok so I was at the track and got to take a look at both tops and basically they are the same height (except they are different) Some parts don't take full advantage of the rules. That's how it is, if its not OEM take points. Go have a beer with everyone who takes points for removing a worthless stock spoiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Go have a beer with everyone who takes points for removing a worthless stock spoiler. or has to take points for their stock fascia or has to take points for their stock side skirts or has to take points for their rear fascia etc etc etc We should change the rules to they fit my case better even if it is to the detriment of everyone else!!!1!!1one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 also they extend back the same except the mugen at the side comes back a bit furtherOK, so they are not the same based on the photos that you provided. One would think that this thread is now complete. having looked at a few cars with hardtops I realise I'm sitting in my car with a bunch of metal struts and shoo-shiddily-diddily sitting about 2" from my head I think its a safety issue cars should be encouraged to use a hardtop rather than making it expensive Note that it is free to put the top down (which is probably the reason why you bought the car in the first place). Go have a beer with everyone who takes points for removing a worthless stock spoiler.Bill got it right! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) I think its a safety issue cars should be encouraged to use a hardtop rather than making it expensiveNote that it is free to put the top down (which is probably the reason why you bought the car in the first place). Go have a beer with everyone who takes points for removing a worthless stock spoiler.Bill got it right! Mark Sure because there is more than one stupid rule then every stupid rule should just be accepted and not debated! Edited May 2, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted May 2, 2011 National Staff Share Posted May 2, 2011 Sure because there is more than one stupid rule then every stupid rule should just be accepted and not debated! Sorry Dan, I just can't resist this one. You're right, why haven't we debated this at all. Let's start a debate now. Also, rules regarding "Non-OEM" parts are only stupid when they effect those calling them stupid, not when they effect his competitor that seeks to gain an unfair advantage with an optional or aftermarket original manufacturer part (Mopar, Ford Racing, Mazdaspeed, MINI, etc. etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Who would have thought that we would have introduced OBL to a head shot before this thread was resolved? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Sure because there is more than one stupid rule then every stupid rule should just be accepted and not debated! Sorry Dan, I just can't resist this one. You're right, why haven't we debated this at all. Let's start a debate now. Also, rules regarding "Non-OEM" parts are only stupid when they effect those calling them stupid, not when they effect his competitor that seeks to gain an unfair advantage with an optional or aftermarket original manufacturer part (Mopar, Ford Racing, Mazdaspeed, MINI, etc. etc.) Yea but people were not seeking an advantage with this top and realy no-one was complaining about them having an advantage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted May 2, 2011 National Staff Share Posted May 2, 2011 Yea but people were not seeking an advantage with this top and realy no-one was complaining about them having an advantage Whether they were seeking an advantage is only known to the competitor. I think that the wind tunnel photos show that there is some advantage, so they did gain an advantage. And, just because you didn't get complaints doesn't mean that I didn't get complaints (I did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Sure because there is more than one stupid rule then every stupid rule should just be accepted and not debated! I'm sure you can't be as short sighted as this thread makes it seem. There is more to a rule set than the S2000 hardtop. Go look at all of the cars classified in the rule set, then think about how many optional parts were available from the factory for each of those cars, then after that think of all the aftermarket parts available for all of the cars, then when that's done try to think of a good reason for having the OEM rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 The rule isn't all that stupid, but I'm beginning to think Dan is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 The rule isn't all that stupid, but I'm beginning to think Dan is hey lets not go there if we start callnig eachother names we could go to page 60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 The rule isn't all that stupid, but I'm beginning to think Dan is hey lets not go there if we start callnig eachother names we could go to page 60 doodie head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Ooooh....Ken, you're in trouble!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Sure because there is more than one stupid rule then every stupid rule should just be accepted and not debated! I'm sure you can't be as short sighted as this thread makes it seem. There is more to a rule set than the S2000 hardtop. Go look at all of the cars classified in the rule set, then think about how many optional parts were available from the factory for each of those cars, then after that think of all the aftermarket parts available for all of the cars, then when that's done try to think of a good reason for having the OEM rule. Of course I don't disagree with rules on OEM parts it means we all choose what to modify and TT doesn't become a spending competition. Without it you have to buy XZY part for $$$'s this way we can choose what to modify. However in the case of mandating OEM hardtops for S2000's (as one of about half a dozen cars actually affected by the rule) makes the OEM hardtop a very expensive "must have" part. Despite what people have said the ebay $799 top is as near as no different (except on quality maybe) and people often choose an OEM top over this part. I thought OEM rules were indispersed with a bit of common sense? for example its ok to use cheap brake rotors you don't have to go to the dealer and pay $140 each? Where is the common sense in this case given this is a very specific rule on an item that increases safety and has been commonly used on many track and TT s2000's for a long time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Despite what people have said the ebay $799 top is as near as no different (except on quality maybe)... ...Where is the common sense in this case given this is a very specific rule on an item that increases safety ... Umm... you totally just contradicted yourself. The $799 top is not made with as much quality as the OEM top, but it increases safety? Sounds like you're really stretching. Of course, I am posting this on page 40, so I'm sure someone just said "Thank you, Captain Obvious!". I would also like to point out it's my first post in the thread too - shocking! I heard we were going to start name calling... I'm in. IBTL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Of course I don't disagree with rules on OEM parts it means we all choose what to modify and TT doesn't become a spending competition. Without it you have to buy XZY part for $$$'s this way we can choose what to modify. However in the case of mandating OEM hardtops for S2000's (as one of about half a dozen cars actually affected by the rule) makes the OEM hardtop a very expensive "must have" part. Despite what people have said the ebay $799 top is as near as no different (except on quality maybe) and people often choose an OEM top over this part. I thought OEM rules were indispersed with a bit of common sense? for example its ok to use cheap brake rotors you don't have to go to the dealer and pay $140 each? Where is the common sense in this case given this is a very specific rule on an item that increases safety and has been commonly used on many track and TT s2000's for a long time? You might have missed this in the rules: "Some parts that are produced by aftermarket manufacturers as generic replacement parts may not require a points assessment provided that: they are the same size and shape, and have the same functional characteristics as the OEM part, and that they provide no significant improvement in performance, longevity, or reliability." Can you see from that language why, based purely on what is written in the rules and not some hatred of S2000s, the rotors you mentioned would be allowed and the top not allowed? The top has a channel down the center of it, a different window, a different slope on the rear and hits at a different part of the body. That does not meet the bold language from the rules. The common sense is not making special rules for each model of car. Everyone has a part they would like to have for no points that they say wouldn't make much difference. The OEM top was not mandated. Take the points and run the aftermarket one, run without one, or run OEM. Your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Despite what people have said the ebay $799 top is as near as no different (except on quality maybe)... ...Where is the common sense in this case given this is a very specific rule on an item that increases safety ... Umm... you totally just contradicted yourself. The $799 top is not made with as much quality as the OEM top, but it increases safety? yes a hardtop will do next to nothing structurally in a rollover: The safety aspect comes from removing the softtop frame that sits a few inches from the drivers head, which greg described as "ginsu knives" in a rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 The safety aspect comes from removing the softtop frame that sits a few inches from the drivers head, which greg described as "ginsu knives" in a rollover I will repeat my suggestion that you should run with the top down if you are worried about this. Down here, convertibles are required to be run with their tops down in order to avoid the hazard that you suggested. After 40 pages of this thread, one would think that you would stop beating this dead horse, but noooooo. And, I see that you're flying the safety flag now (or maybe you did it somewhere else in these 40 pages, but this thread went out of control so long ago that I likely have forgotten it). Don't forget that the installation of one of these can fix all current shortcomings of your car: But, good luck finding a car that has no shortcomings. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 The safety aspect comes from removing the softtop frame that sits a few inches from the drivers head, which greg described as "ginsu knives" in a rollover I will repeat my suggestion that you should run with the top down if you are worried about this. Down here, convertibles are required to be run with their tops down in order to avoid the hazard that you suggested. I am aware of that and I think its realy stupid to mandate a car to run top-down or with a hardtop for safety then make a rule that makes a hardtop cost $2000 more than it needs to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 well spend the extra money or take your points and run the cheap one. - KB, car with a roof shape that can't be changed per TT & PT rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I am aware of that and I think its realy stupid to mandate a car to run top-down or with a hardtop for safety then make a rule that makes a hardtop cost $2000 more than it needs to. Hahaha. Its like spoon feeding a baby who keeps spitting the food out. I notice you ignored the post where I quoted from the rules, but then again your argument kind of falls apart when you actually look at them doesn't it. Here is a basic principle behind the rules: Maximum potential performance is the basis of the points in the rules, not the cost based on currently available products. If you want a cheaper option, get people together and find a manufacturer to make a run of knockoff tops identical to the OEM. Your willingness to source parts has nothing to do with the rules and in my opinion shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 I am aware of that and I think its realy stupid to mandate a car to run top-down or with a hardtop for safety then make a rule that makes a hardtop cost $2000 more than it needs to. Hahaha. Its like spoon feeding a baby who keeps spitting the food out. I notice you ignored the post where I quoted from the rules, but then again your argument kind of falls apart when you actually look at them doesn't it. Here is a basic principle behind the rules: Maximum potential performance is the basis of the points in the rules, not the cost based on currently available products. If you want a cheaper option, get people together and find a manufacturer to make a run of knockoff tops identical to the OEM. Your willingness to source parts has nothing to do with the rules and in my opinion shouldn't. do you realy think me or anyone else with an s2000 would care about this rule if the OEM top wasn't so expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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