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dans2k

New OEM Hardtop Rule G 2

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dans2k
Just needs to be OEM profile, not weight or anything else...

 

AHEM

 

There only OEM copy is carbon and costs $4k - no-ones going to make a cheap OEM copy when people prefer the style of the mugen and you can pick it up for $800 on ebay

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kbrew8991

the market did just get bigger though... jus sayin

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TurboShortBus

Maybe purchasing one of these is in order:

 

advice_home_forSaleSign.jpg?cacheid=2947219579

 

Mark

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Markus

I'd be ticked if the Mugen version was given any sort of exemption. It is different, different is possibly better, and it's not up to NASA rules writers or Tech staff to determine "better enough?". The main point is that since it is different/better - it shouldn't be a free mod.

 

That being said, I'm not so sure I'm thrilled about parts like this being outlawed. Maybe make it a +6 mod so if someone shows up with one they can still run, just maybe in a higher group. I think the points have to be high from a rules perspective so Greg could just write in "non-OEM hardtop, +6". Then everyone will go out and build non-OEM fastback hardtops with built in wings and vortex generators....

 

Ken, didn't your one buddy bring a Boxster with a fastback style hardtop to MidOhio once? Just another example of a car potentially effected by this.

 

- Mark

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kbrew8991

Yeah Sam's Boxster had a Cayman-esque profile hardtop. He didn't hang onto the car long though, but it could affect others.

 

Non-OEM Profile Hardtop at +6 or whatnot would work, that would let people run in a class lower than TTS at least (unless they still point-out...)

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D_Eclipse9916

As you can see, some are better than others, and some have extra aero features. All are better than OEM.

When discussing this rule recently with someone on e-mail, there was a mention first that if we did put a point value to the Mugen top as a waiver, that it would have to be enough points to justify it as a waiver, and that undoubtedly the drivers would complain it is too many points. Then, I later told him that it looked like it would need to be 4-5 points. This idea was considered ridiculous. It is not going to be our problem or expense to put various tops through wind tunnel testing, or take a specific car model like an S2000 or a Miata, and run it with one of our expert drivers both with and without a specific top to determine the "correct" point value. And, if you aren't going to be using the OEM hardtop equivalent, why can't all other vehicles have their tops modified and lowered for aero advantages?

 

Lastly, these are $30K+ cars new. Some of you are now spending $5000 on just the shocks for them. Nobody is requiring you to run a hardtop, but even with a CF hardtop you need adequate roll protection with this car.

 

 

Look at the rear profile of a C5 FRC vs a C5 coupe, with the way the coupe slopes would make a difference in laptimes? is it worth 4-5 points?

 

I agree the Spoon and other "aero" tops should be banned or assessed points.

 

The difference between the mugen style and OEM is marginal at best, of course the manufacturer of any quality JDM tuning parts will tell you X,Y,Z was wind tunnel tested blah blah blah but look at the profiles.

 

The s2000 is the only convertible where the OEM top costs $2500+ USED!

 

I don't see why its a problem to make an alternative approved hardtop available where the OEM top is prohibitively expensive.

There are only a few convertibles that even fall under this rule so there is no chance the rules will get overly complicated.

 

You just dont get it do you? YOUR GIVEN A FREEBIE having a hardtop. YOUR CAR WAS CLASSED WITHOUT ONE. Be happy you have the option to get a hardtop AT ALL for free points and improve your stock car's aero.

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dans2k

As you can see, some are better than others, and some have extra aero features. All are better than OEM.

When discussing this rule recently with someone on e-mail, there was a mention first that if we did put a point value to the Mugen top as a waiver, that it would have to be enough points to justify it as a waiver, and that undoubtedly the drivers would complain it is too many points. Then, I later told him that it looked like it would need to be 4-5 points. This idea was considered ridiculous. It is not going to be our problem or expense to put various tops through wind tunnel testing, or take a specific car model like an S2000 or a Miata, and run it with one of our expert drivers both with and without a specific top to determine the "correct" point value. And, if you aren't going to be using the OEM hardtop equivalent, why can't all other vehicles have their tops modified and lowered for aero advantages?

 

Lastly, these are $30K+ cars new. Some of you are now spending $5000 on just the shocks for them. Nobody is requiring you to run a hardtop, but even with a CF hardtop you need adequate roll protection with this car.

 

 

Look at the rear profile of a C5 FRC vs a C5 coupe, with the way the coupe slopes would make a difference in laptimes? is it worth 4-5 points?

 

I agree the Spoon and other "aero" tops should be banned or assessed points.

 

The difference between the mugen style and OEM is marginal at best, of course the manufacturer of any quality JDM tuning parts will tell you X,Y,Z was wind tunnel tested blah blah blah but look at the profiles.

 

The s2000 is the only convertible where the OEM top costs $2500+ USED!

 

I don't see why its a problem to make an alternative approved hardtop available where the OEM top is prohibitively expensive.

There are only a few convertibles that even fall under this rule so there is no chance the rules will get overly complicated.

 

You just dont get it do you? YOUR GIVEN A FREEBIE having a hardtop. YOUR CAR WAS CLASSED WITHOUT ONE. Be happy you have the option to get a hardtop AT ALL for free points and improve your stock car's aero.

 

I want to be happy but my bank manager says no!

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SNAKBITN

If I was going to run TTB this year with a plus +6 point for non-oem top you would see a 4'' to 5'' chop top on a 98 mustang.This will open the door to all types of new problems.

 

Robert

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kbrew8991

removal of windshield and windshield frame is +7

 

cutting it a bit isn't listed - illegal

 

go for it though

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TurboShortBus
Non-OEM Profile Hardtop at +6 or whatnot would work, that would let people run in a class lower than TTS at least (unless they still point-out...)

 

At which point they need to throw out their TTA-TTF forms, strap to the dyno, and class in TTS based on power to weight. You can't add up points and end up in TTS, even if you start in TTC and slap on fat, non-DOT slicks and rack up a ton of points.

 

 

Mark

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SNAKBITN

Damn MR2 drivers got to ruin everything.

 

Robert

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IGZOSTD

At which point they need to throw out their TTA-TTF forms, strap to the dyno, and class in TTS based on power to weight. You can't add up points and end up in TTS, even if you start in TTC and slap on fat, non-DOT slicks and rack up a ton of points.

 

 

Mark

Thats how my s197 pointed out of TTA (started in TTD**). Once I got the wt. out and thats with a stock engine.Time for the drive line swap.

 

If I was going to run TTB this year with a plus +6 point for non-oem top you would see a 4'' to 5'' chop top on a 98 mustang.This will open the door to all types of new problems.

 

Robert

 

You mean I can't take my 50 Merc with the 4" chop and TT it?

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TurboShortBus
Thats how my s197 pointed out of TTA (started in TTD**). Once I got the wt. out and thats with a stock engine.Time for the drive line swap.

ILLEGAL!

 

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38678

 

(further discussion there, not here)

 

Mark

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Greg G.

Mark, it is legal to "point out" of TTA-TTF because of too many points. What is not legal is failing to submit a TTS/TTU Car Classification Form and Dyno sheet once you do point out of TTA. Steve never said that he hasn't/wasn't submitting both.

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IGZOSTD

Correct. Thanks Greg saved me the response.

Same thing when I run it in ST1. TTS, TTU, ST1,ST2,STR1,STR2 all require class forms to be submitted or You run TTR,SU.

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IGZOSTD

Greg, ,

To make the s2000 crowd and there competitors happy are you going to issue a point hit on the non OE type hard tops.

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Greg G.
Greg, ,

To make the s2000 crowd and there competitors happy are you going to issue a point hit on the non OE type hard tops.

Steve, the S2000 crowd won't be happy with the point assessment that we would be required to give a waiver, and the other competitors won't be happy if there is any waiver--Catch 22 . As I stated in an e-mail to one of them, we were considering a 4-5 point assessment as a waiver in the Appendix for only the Mugen S2000 top. It was not appreciated, so I tabled it, and did not attempt to get it approved. I think that I could get the 4 point assessment approved for just this specific Mugen top, but I don't need to waste my time and upset the rest of the crowd if the S2000 guys don't want it anyway. If we were to change the rule for a point assessment for any non-OEM top, the assessment would have to bump to at least 8-10 points to account for the crazy stuff that someone could do at that point (wings/spoilers/tunnels/diverters/dams/vortex generators/lowering/etc). At this point, this thread has proven to me that we made the right decision in the first place by going to OEM or OEM shape and size only. And, after looking into this a bit more, it turns out that there are "Mugen-like" tops out there being sold, just making this more messy. And, guess what will happen if we do give a waiver for the "Mugen" or "Mugen-like" top for 4 points in 2011, and then Mugen decides to make a fastback top similar to the Spoon and Miata fastback? We delete/revise the waiver after some "smart" competitor goes out and gets the new Mugen/Mugen-like top before we know it exists and have a chance to revise the waiver. Again, more of a mess.

 

We have an S2000 competing in SoCal with no top!

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dans2k

>> and the other competitors won't be happy if there is any waiver

 

People have been running these Mugen style tops in TT for years - how many complaints have you actualy had about this specific style of top?

how many people have complained that this top is a aero advantage since it might slope back around 2" behind the OEM style top?

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Shawn M.

 

People have been running these Mugen style tops in TT for years - how many complaints have you actualy had about this specific style of top?

how many people have complained that this top is a aero advantage since it might slope back around 2" behind the OEM style top?

 

 

So people have been cheating for years? Interesting. Bout time to stop the cheating in TT.

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kbrew8991

Cheating is far too strong a word to use there Mr. Meze. "Had a loophole closed on them" is probably fair.

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wlfpkrcn1
>> and the other competitors won't be happy if there is any waiver

 

People have been running these Mugen style tops in TT for years - how many complaints have you actualy had about this specific style of top?

how many people have complained that this top is a aero advantage since it might slope back around 2" behind the OEM style top?

 

 

Apparently you are having a hard time with this. Lets simplify it

 

The Mugen and Spoon style hard tops are illegal.

 

If you want to run a hard top...BUY A STOCK TOP

If you don't want to buy a stock hard top...RUN WITHOUT A TOP

 

These are your only two options if you want to run TT, and nothing is going to change. Pick either option and go drive your car

 

The other options you have are to run HPDE's with whatever top you want OR step up to wheel to wheel racing

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kbrew8991
step up to wheel to wheel racing

 

To what class? Its also illegal in PT...

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obzezzed350
step up to wheel to wheel racing

 

To what class? Its also illegal in PT...

 

Honda Challenge..

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kbrew8991
step up to wheel to wheel racing

 

To what class? Its also illegal in PT...

 

Honda Challenge..

 

Is the top allowed there?

 

I wouldn't because I'm not a Toyo fan but that certainly beats ST or SU

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Shawn M.
Cheating is far too strong a word to use there Mr. Meze. "Had a loophole closed on them" is probably fair.

 

 

Its either legal or it aint. A toad is a toad, its not a wart all by itself.

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