kbrew8991 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 the previous wording indicated ANY hardtop was fine. Now that isn't what was meant but don't blame them for following what it said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 13, 2011 National Staff Share Posted January 13, 2011 Yep, the car that Honda Challenge did their testing on to allow the S2000 into H2 had a Mugen or Mugen knockoff hardtop on it. That is how they were able to approve it for H2. They never tested with the top off, or with an OEM top for comparison. They just went to the faster option from the start, and decided what they would and would not allow to make the car legal in H2. The Spoon top is not legal. PT and TT obviously work differently. We start from base models, and when you add a part that has an advantage over a competitor without that part, you take points. Or, NASA decides that it is just too much of a problem to approve the mod, AND it is NOT a NECESSARY MOD due to other options available (OEM top, OEM knock-off top, no top). And, to answer Dan's question above, yes, we did get complaints that there were S2000 drivers using non-OEM tops. We also got questions from drivers whether they could cut their top off and add some aero features like the Mugen and Spoon, and we had others that were concerned when they heard that there were both Miata and S2000 drivers that were planning on purchasing and/or bringing out those cars with the fastback tops under the existing rules in 2010. When we have a rule that is the same for years, and we decide to make a change, it isn't because we have nothing better to do than fiddle with something that isn't broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 To what class? Its also illegal in PT... Honda Challenge.. Is the top allowed there? I wouldn't because I'm not a Toyo fan but that certainly beats ST or SU Hey watch it Ken Brewer!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormulaRedline Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't feel like going into a diatribe that people aren't good to read anyway because they've made up their minds, but I did want to put in my two cents to support Dan's point. This is a reactive rule justified to penalize a few taking advantage but hurting a lot of loyal NASA customers abiding by the spirit of the rules and looking for affordable alternatives. The Mugen-style tops do not have a clear advantage over the OEM style ones. I wouldn't yet say it's none, but it's certainly not worth a ban and no where near the points penalty of the existing aero mods (wing, splitter, or even proper canards). I have a degree in aerospace engineering from MIT and currently work for Boeing. If you want to hear a more detailed analysis, I'd be willing and qualified to give it, but I fear that my current ownership of a Mugen top would color the judgment of those reading it. Alternatively, I'm sure I could perform an experiment where I borrow an OEM top and test it back to back with the Mugen, logging acceleration data with a DL-1. However, this would ideally be done at a controlled track to reach meaningful speeds, so it might not be in time for the start of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't really want to hear the detailed analysis but I'd like to hear the premise for your experiment. My feeling is that the way an aero modification affects a car on a race track can't be measured with a simple acceleration experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dont open it!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't feel like going into a diatribe that people aren't good to read anyway because they've made up their minds, but I did want to put in my two cents to support Dan's point. This is a reactive rule justified to penalize a few taking advantage but hurting a lot of loyal NASA customers abiding by the spirit of the rules and looking for affordable alternatives. The Mugen-style tops do not have a clear advantage over the OEM style ones. I wouldn't yet say it's none, but it's certainly not worth a ban and no where near the points penalty of the existing aero mods (wing, splitter, or even proper canards). I have a degree in aerospace engineering from MIT and currently work for Boeing. If you want to hear a more detailed analysis, I'd be willing and qualified to give it, but I fear that my current ownership of a Mugen top would color the judgment of those reading it. Alternatively, I'm sure I could perform an experiment where I borrow an OEM top and test it back to back with the Mugen, logging acceleration data with a DL-1. However, this would ideally be done at a controlled track to reach meaningful speeds, so it might not be in time for the start of the season. Some is more than none. Therefore it is worth points or banning. Actually what you need is a wind tunnel to measure the effects of the top change. It's not just acceleration that is the issue. It is downforce, drag etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 I think its pretty clear the mugen style is not going to be a significant benefit over OEM I guess some people complained about the spoon style hardtops so they decided the easiest thing was to ban everything not OEM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't feel like going into a diatribe that people aren't good to read anyway because they've made up their minds, but I did want to put in my two cents to support Dan's point. This is a reactive rule justified to penalize a few taking advantage but hurting a lot of loyal NASA customers abiding by the spirit of the rules and looking for affordable alternatives. The Mugen-style tops do not have a clear advantage over the OEM style ones. I wouldn't yet say it's none, but it's certainly not worth a ban and no where near the points penalty of the existing aero mods (wing, splitter, or even proper canards). I have a degree in aerospace engineering from MIT and currently work for Boeing. If you want to hear a more detailed analysis, I'd be willing and qualified to give it, but I fear that my current ownership of a Mugen top would color the judgment of those reading it. Alternatively, I'm sure I could perform an experiment where I borrow an OEM top and test it back to back with the Mugen, logging acceleration data with a DL-1. However, this would ideally be done at a controlled track to reach meaningful speeds, so it might not be in time for the start of the season. Some is more than none. Therefore it is worth points or banning. Actually what you need is a wind tunnel to measure the effects of the top change. It's not just acceleration that is the issue. It is downforce, drag etc.. I think the issue is more not wanting to try and make a rule to ban aero tops so we'll ban all aftermarket tops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Some is more than none. Therefore it is worth points or banning. Actually what you need is a wind tunnel to measure the effects of the top change. It's not just acceleration that is the issue. It is downforce, drag etc.. Quit stealing my thunder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 But... No. but... No. rinse. Repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dont open it!!!! I can't help it. I thought this thread was dead so jumped in for some tech chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I think the issue is more not wanting to try and make a rule to ban aero tops so we'll ban all aftermarket tops This is where you are completely wrong. If the aftermarket is the same shape and dimensions as the stock. In other words if the after market top is an exact replica then it is legal. THE MUGEN TOP IS NOT A REPLICA OF THE STOCK HONDA TOP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 14, 2011 National Staff Share Posted January 14, 2011 OK, I'm starting to wonder if this will be one of the 30 page threads Want more fuel? The actual Mugen hardtops cost MUCH MORE than the OEM hardtop!!!!! The cheaper ones are just that, cheaper knock-offs that copied the Mugen shape and size. Mugen fiberglass hardtops go for about $3000 new Mugen carbon fiber hardtops go for about $6500-$7000 new. http://twincamtech.stores.yahoo.net/mugs2har.html http://www.nengun.com/mugen/s2000-hard-top Questions that could add a few more pages here: 1) If those making the Mugen knock-offs can make them and sell them cheaper, why can't they make a cheap OEM knock-off carbon-fiber or fiberglass top? 2) Why did they knock-off the Mugen top to begin with, instead of the OEM top? Could it possibly be that the Mugen "style" shape and size actually were wind tunnel tested and designed to offer superior aerodynamic performance, just as some of the vendors clearly state on their websites? 3) Would Mugen actually design and manufacture an expensive part like this without it having performance advantages? They aren't exactly known for building junk. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Just to through another log in the fire (this one soaked in gas). In my younger days I raced dirt track motorcycles and all the Honda guys would salivate over the Mugen parts. Mugen had a direct working relationship with Honda and I'm sure they still do. Thats a lot of resources available to Mugen. The Mugen Honda's were no match for an Ossa or a Bultaco. We sort of went trough this a few years ago with the front fascia. If you Honda competitors want to run this roof go to TTS where the aero mods are open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Damn it Greg!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Hey Shawn, looks like you even got a bigger can out before opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Just let me know when it's legal to channel and change the slope of my roof. I have an awesome body guy ready to start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The most important thing that I learned from this thread is that you can buy worms in a can. Who knew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The most important thing that I learned from this thread is that you can buy worms in a can. Who knew? lol reptile food! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRINGER Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I am sure someone knows the wind tunnel stats on this hard top. I would be willing to bet points could be assessed based on wind displacement figures from the company. I would bet they have done the research and have the answers. Just saying. Its a popular car model with a variable hard top mod. Why not explore possible points instead of saying its not legal? All It takes is an email to the designers to get the info you need. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Didnt Greg mention that they were considering a +4 or +5 special assessment for the Mugen top but it was politely refused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 OK, I'm starting to wonder if this will be one of the 30 page threads Want more fuel? The actual Mugen hardtops cost MUCH MORE than the OEM hardtop!!!!! The cheaper ones are just that, cheaper knock-offs that copied the Mugen shape and size. Mugen fiberglass hardtops go for about $3000 new Mugen carbon fiber hardtops go for about $6500-$7000 new. http://twincamtech.stores.yahoo.net/mugs2har.html http://www.nengun.com/mugen/s2000-hard-top Questions that could add a few more pages here: 1) If those making the Mugen knock-offs can make them and sell them cheaper, why can't they make a cheap OEM knock-off carbon-fiber or fiberglass top? 2) Why did they knock-off the Mugen top to begin with, instead of the OEM top? Could it possibly be that the Mugen "style" shape and size actually were wind tunnel tested and designed to offer superior aerodynamic performance, just as some of the vendors clearly state on their websites? 3) Would Mugen actually design and manufacture an expensive part like this without it having performance advantages? They aren't exactly known for building junk. Have fun hey why not I think we can get to 30! I don't know why people copy mugen but I think most people think the mugen looks better. It might be tricky to copy the glass on the OEM one I dunno, realy I wish they would knockoff some OEM copies... but why speculate anymore, FormulaRedline offerred to test, why not let him test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Just let me know when it's legal to channel and change the slope of my roof. I have an awesome body guy ready to start hey if you want to give your body guy money to pull your roofline back a few inches thats fine with me! let us know how that works out for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Body shop sponsor is free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.