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dans2k

New OEM Hardtop Rule G 2

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speedengineer

hey why not I think we can get to 30!

 

I don't know why people copy mugen but I think most people think the mugen looks better.

It might be tricky to copy the glass on the OEM one I dunno, realy I wish they would knockoff some OEM copies...

 

but why speculate anymore, FormulaRedline offerred to test, why not let him test?

 

Well, let me say that I don't think the Mugen top will really help all that much, and as a fellow S2000 TT competitor (with an OEM top) I wouldn't care if guys are running the Mugen top against me.

 

That said, I don't know if we can fully prove it using FormulaRedline's acceleration test. People are arguing that it affects both drag and downforce. There would be no easy way to measure any advantage in downforce from straight line testing. Granted, I'm not saying there is much of a difference, but we would have to be able to prove that there isn't to keep them all satisfied...

 

Perhaps somebody should break out a CFD program and run a 2D analysis...

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Greg G.
Didnt Greg mention that they were considering a +4 or +5 special assessment for the Mugen top but it was politely refused?

Yes. But now that we find that it isn't even really the Mugen top that is desired, how would a Rule or waiver be written to prevent the eventual evolution into a fastback style? At this point, NASA National has decided that this can of worms can stay in this thread, instead of the TT/PT Rules.

 

I hope that didn't decrease the chances of hitting 30 pages...

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dans2k

whats wrong with something like the new honda-challenge rule:

 

"S2000 may utilize any composite “hardtop” that does not extend rearward of the centerline of the trunk."

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kbrew8991

can you run with the soft top up?

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awdracer

 

 

I hope that didn't decrease the chances of hitting 30 pages...

 

Say the word. I can make it happen.

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Karl
can you run with the soft top up?

 

only at some tracks

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Michael Alsip
how would a Rule or waiver be written to prevent the eventual evolution into a fastback style?

 

I don't know... let me take maybe... 14 seconds and type this hugely game-changing rule out.

 

"Any convertible hard top that does not extend past the original front trunk line is allowed. Any non-OEM hard top that extends past the original front trunk line is assessed point based on rule XX. The purpose of this rule is prohibit hard tops that offer significant aerodynamic advantages."

 

How'd I do?

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kbrew8991

and now go car listing by car listing and research if any of the convertible versions of said cars would gain alot under said rule. If they will it needs to be more points as mod points are set by the best-case scenario gain.

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IGZOSTD

I don't know... let me take maybe... 14 seconds and type this hugely game-changing rule out.

 

"Any convertible hard top that does not extend past the original front trunk line is allowed. Any non-OEM hard top that extends past the original front trunk line is assessed point based on rule XX. The purpose of this rule is prohibit hard tops that offer significant aerodynamic advantages."

 

How'd I do?

 

Thats just wonderful but, you still haven't addressed the lower roof line .

 

whats wrong with something like the new honda-challenge rule:

 

"S2000 may utilize any composite “hardtop” that does not extend rearward of the centerline of the trunk."

 

You really must be naive to think that a 1 inch lower roof line, side dams and a slightly flatter rear window which reaches back just a little more doesn't affect the Aero much. Guys tape body seams and have to take points.

My neighbour builds some of the worlds finest custom cars, he wins just about every show his cars are in. They have to get the glass made in Sweden when they do a custom curved windshield or back-lite ( thats the rear window ).

Some of them are 7000 bucks. Thats why the smaller rear window in the non OE tops.

 

Body shop sponsor is free

 

I'm with you on this one Eric. Lower the front window, and modify the fast back to promote more air over the wing. Oh, don't forget the 1/2" dam. Hell while I'm at it how about a channel job, oops thats NOT PERMITTED

 

Just doing my share for 30

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Shawn M.
Hey Shawn, looks like you even got a bigger can out before opening.

 

 

I didnt open it, Greg did!

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awdracer
how would a Rule or waiver be written to prevent the eventual evolution into a fastback style?

 

I don't know... let me take maybe... 14 seconds and type this hugely game-changing rule out.

 

"Any convertible hard top that does not extend past the original front trunk line is allowed. Any non-OEM hard top that extends past the original front trunk line is assessed point based on rule XX. The purpose of this rule is prohibit hard tops that offer significant aerodynamic advantages."

 

How'd I do?

 

Not too well. You're going to need a wind tunnel to define "significant". One thing that TT'ers miss is that any rule change here would bleed over to PT where the DRAFT is a huge issue. A 1" lowering of a roof line decreases the size of the hole that a car punches in the air which makes it harder to pass. If we change this rule then it's going to be open season for any convertible to start wearing an aero top... which would be another advantage for public enemy #1 in PT.... the Miata.

 

Seriously, though. If you s2000 guys have this big of a hard-on for hard tops, you're going to have better luck lobbying an aftermarket vendor to produce an exact replica of the stock piece than you will lobbying Greg to change this particular rule. Otherwise, HC beckons.

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Michael Alsip
Thats just wonderful but, you still haven't addressed the lower roof line.

 

Greg was asking how to address the fastback problem, not the lowered roof line, but... I'd imagine it would take another 14 or so seconds to add in another small clause.

 

"Any convertible hard top that does not extend past the original front trunk line is allowed. Any non-OEM hard top that extends past the original front trunk line is assessed point based on rule XX. Also, any hard top that lowers the roof line such that the windshield or its frame is now the highest point on the car should be assessed points based on rule XY. The purpose of this rule is prohibit hard tops that offer significant aerodynamic advantages."

 

You refer to people taping edges, but you see this more in spec classes than you do the heavily subjective PT/TT classes. Why? Because it's a lot easier to take a couple of the free mods and make up for the aerodynamic losses (mind you, they are EXTREMELY small) than it is to scrape duct tape residue off your $3,000 hard top.

 

I'm not particularly sure what your neighbor building custom cars has anything to do with an S2000 hardtop, especially since the weight penalty of larger glass can be offset by a carbon fiber OEM-style top. The weight advantages are not on trial here.

 

Unfortunately you must be very naive to think that the advantages of going from an OEM top to Mugen top is going to make any sort of noticeable difference. If we are to take every single manufacturer's description as gold, we'd probably have a lot of free modifications that were illegal as well.

 

My opinion is that you make a hard top a free modification subject to the rules above. Make a blanket rule that says that any hardtop that seeks to have an aerodynamic advantage is to be assessed an ungodly amount of points, similar to non-DOT tires. Sure, some people might do it, but they're not going to be in the front running of the class it puts them into.

 

Rather than making the entire S2000 contingency go out and purchase new hard tops that are going to perform identical to the Mugen top, it would be much wiser for the rules committee to seek to make this sport easier to be a part of. This is supposed to be entry level motorsports, people. This is not Formula 1. The goal is to promote motorsports, right? If you're trying to push people away from the series... Congratulations, mission accomplished.

 

Threads like these that pick at tiny differences only show the bitter side of motorsports and typically reveal those who are better at finding flaws in the rules than they are at driving. I won't point any fingers, but it never ceases to amaze me that the same people are always a part of the discussions that nerf the S2000. Seems like some of you all need to invest in a new car rather than trying to figure out how to hold back those who are doing well.

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Michael Alsip
Not too well. You're going to need a wind tunnel to define "significant". One thing that TT'ers miss is that any rule change here would bleed over to PT where the DRAFT is a huge issue. A 1" lowering of a roof line decreases the size of the hole that a car punches in the air which makes it harder to pass.

 

You know what else makes a car harder to pass?

 

-Sunroof removal and replacement with a carbon fiber blocking plate.

-Weight savings from a lightweight battery

-Weight savings from air conditioning removal

-Power gain from an A/C delete pulley

-Weight savings from lexan windows

-The extra 80 horsepower that an FI car gets from a reflash that an NA car doesn't

-More power generated by higher specific energy outputs and advanced timing from better fuel

-Power gain from an air filter change

-Power gain from shaving a head and decking a block to raise the compression a half a point

-Not having to shift because you can rev higher with your blueprinted engine and non-OEM valve springs and retainers

-Accelerating faster out a corner due a final drive change

 

I could go on and on, but the common theme here is that all of these FREE modifications are going to make a car harder to pass as well. You're splitting hairs here, dude. Don't you all realize that?

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awdracer

Michael, point missed.

 

Everything you listed is specifically covered by Greg's magic HP/WT formula (Let's not go that route, I already went 30 pages with that one and still feel the same way) or free mods.

 

Besides, all of those changes that you listed are available to ALL cars. This is an S2000 issue and we are talking about an advantage for ONE car and NASA isn't going to allow that advantage for that one car.

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kbrew8991
Seems like some of you all need to invest in a new car rather than trying to figure out how to hold back those who are doing well.

that made me alot. Well done!

 

Yeah, I'm really tired of S2000s beating me down in F.

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wlfpkrcn1
Threads like these that pick at tiny differences only show the bitter side of motorsports and typically reveal those who are better at finding flaws in the rules than they are at driving. .

 

 

Lets test your theory and really make this a 30 page thread

 

Lets say Scott and his twin brother Sam build TTE SER Sentra's. Both drivers have dead nuts equal skill and time behind the wheel and they are interchangeable. Both will prep their cars to be classeed using the same number of points. Are you ready? Here is a hypothetical list of mods they are taking points for.

 

10-Tires

1- cold air intake

1- under drive pulley

2- header

2- exhaust

1- cat conv removal

3- limited slip

3- shocks

2- springs

2- sway bar

2- brake calipers

 

Here is how they build their cars.

 

Scott builds his car by the classification sheet-

Buys used worn out Hoosiers from the throw away pile

Cold air intake of ebay

Header from JC whitney

Local exhaust shop puts on a exhaust with cheap muffler

Cheapest LSD he can find is 2 spring loaded plates that fit between the spider gears (yes they are available for under $100)

KYB AGX from Kragen

Eibach pro spring kit

Suspension technique sway bar for "racing"

Brake calipers from a 200sx (cause you have to have those)

 

He now has a prepped TTE SER Sentra. Good job Scott!

 

 

Sam reads the rules and builds his car-

 

Brand new Hoosier tires

Custom built air intake to maximize cold air and flow into engine

Factory designed race header with 2.5" pipe into a proper race muffler

Kaaz LSD diff with un updated final drive ratio

Custom valved double adjustable Koni's with coil overs

Multiple spring rates to balance the car

Speedway sway bars

Brembo 4 piston calipers

 

While building the car Sam completely stripped the interior. Seam welded the car. Pulled all the factory glass and installed lexan, Carbon fiber hood and fenders, Lightest wheels he could find, lightest flywheel, he also added a bigger oil cooler and radiator, rebuilt the engine to the maximum allowed spec without taking points and bolted in lead to match the weight of Scotts car

 

Sam kicks Scotts ass at the track and Scott accuses his brother of cheating. He knows he is equally as fast as Sam and they took the same amount of points. They both followed the rules. How could Sam be that much faster. It was as if he transformed his SER into a Miata. It was very bad scene....

 

The moral of the story- You need to read and understand the rules. If you you understand the rules and build a proper car, you have an advantage over someone of equal skill in an under prepped car. It is the tiny differences on the track that make up for tenths and hundreths of a second on the track. This should be a bigger concern in TT because you live and die by the clock. Wheel to wheel adds another element that can't be equated. It's about passing and beating the guy, not how fast your lap was when you did it

 

Seems like some of you all need to invest in a new car rather than trying to figure out how to hold back those who are doing well.

We should all change to Miatas, Integras and S2000! Those guys are the only ones that know how to prep cars. Think of what we could all learn.....

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IGZOSTD

New Race, first on to pg. Win's. s2000 competitors award +7pts win or lose.

 

Michael, No bitterness, hostilities, Get it. Its about whats right.

 

REALLY, you took all of 14 sec. for this ruling, REALLY.

 

point 1. xy chromosomes. significant aero advantage. Right back to OE or OE profile 100%.

 

point 2. Taping gaps. Well if you would observe some cars with Horse Power. you would see some 600hp and up and I mean UP taping the gaps with very thin clear tape. I've even seen guy's cover the whole front of the car with rolls of clear film.

 

point 3. Custom Cars. Just a matte of cost. That has nothing to do with it. again REALLY.

 

point 4. Free mods, this is like the Lefty Loosie deal ( political jab) equality for every one.

 

point 5. points hit , this is a dead issue as this was rejected. Done Deal

 

point 6. The entire s2000 contingency?

 

point 7. The bitter side is showing. AA hour.

 

This is cheap entertainment

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dans2k
This is an S2000 issue and we are talking about an advantage for ONE car and NASA isn't going to allow that advantage for that one car.

 

no not asking for an advantage just hoping the problem with aero tops can be addressed by the rules without banning similar to oem more affordable tops

 

what if it was OEM miata hardtops that cost $2500 used?

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awdracer

Wolfpack, you're cracking me up.

 

My car is sam's except I have a Nismo LSD instead of the quaife, a 3" exhaust instead of a 2.5" and I'm currently designing a 43" 1.25DIA solid speedway engineering bar installation to take advantage of the new rules change about sway bar mounting. That's funny that you mentioned the Speedway bar in your post.

 

By the way, did that new swaybar rule come about because you unknowingly installed an illegal swaybar on your car and then posted pictures of it on this forum? Now THAT was entertainment!! Talk about "ruh-roh"!

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wlfpkrcn1
Wolfpack, you're cracking me up.

 

My car is sam's except I have a Nismo LSD instead of the quaife, a 3" exhaust instead of a 2.5" and I'm currently designing a 43" 1.25DIA solid speedway engineering bar installation to take advantage of the new rules change about sway bar mounting. That's funny that you mentioned the Speedway bar in your post.

 

By the way, did that new swaybar rule come about because you unknowingly installed an illegal swaybar on your car and then posted pictures of it on this forum? Now THAT was entertainment!! Talk about "ruh-roh"!

 

Just wanted to make sure we could get to 30 pages.

 

Sway bar has always been legal. It was the strut tops that caused a stir

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awdracer
Wolfpack, you're cracking me up.

 

My car is sam's except I have a Nismo LSD instead of the quaife, a 3" exhaust instead of a 2.5" and I'm currently designing a 43" 1.25DIA solid speedway engineering bar installation to take advantage of the new rules change about sway bar mounting. That's funny that you mentioned the Speedway bar in your post.

 

By the way, did that new swaybar rule come about because you unknowingly installed an illegal swaybar on your car and then posted pictures of it on this forum? Now THAT was entertainment!! Talk about "ruh-roh"!

 

Just wanted to make sure we could get to 30 pages.

 

Sway bar has always been legal. It was the strut tops that caused a stir

 

Was it? I don't have the pictures but I seem to remember the bar passing through the passenger compartment. Did it maintain the stock mounting points? I can't remember.

 

With mine, I can build a mount off the frame rail and the bar will pass under the spare tire well and I'll use Speedway's 10 deg arms to get past the lower control arms. An ITA ARRC winner did something similar and I've wanted to copy it for years... but couldn't.

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wlfpkrcn1

I don't run a rear bar. just a front speedway bar.

The issue was my trimming of the front strut tops for the installation of a simple camber/caster plate. Let's not hijack the thread.

 

Damn those Mugen type hard tops!

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dans2k
I don't run a rear bar. just a front speedway bar.

The issue was my trimming of the front strut tops for the installation of a simple camber/caster plate. Let's not hijack the thread.

 

Damn those Mugen type hard tops!

 

no-ones forcing you to read this thread and make stupid comments if you don't want to discuss hardtops anymore you can leave

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wlfpkrcn1

I was getting back on track

 

At this point it amusing to hear the "pro" Mugen style arguments. I doubt Greg is going to allow ALL cars to drop and slope their roof line. If you give it to the S2000, you give it to everyone including those without convertibles.

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dans2k

The roof height is the same, if you wanted to modify your roof to come back an inch or two like the top I don't care.

But I think there is no valid reason you are just saying it for purposes of argument.

 

As far as I know no-one ever complained about this Mugen style top and the extra 2" slope/roofline...

People complained about aero tops, spoon and miata fastback tops.

 

Why not just deal with them and leave us an affordable hardtop option like all the other convertibles have?

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