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New OEM Hardtop Rule G 2


dans2k

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Dont you start!

 

(my Z is E85 powered!)

I'm not starting anything! I run e85 in my STi.

 

It'd be nice to see e98 or other blends included in the rules (even if they were for points). That way people at least get the option of running it, instead of "it's not in the rules, so it's illegal."

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Dont you start!

 

(my Z is E85 powered!)

I'm not starting anything! I run e85 in my STi.

 

It'd be nice to see e98 or other blends included in the rules (even if they were for points). That way people at least get the option of running it, instead of "it's not in the rules, so it's illegal."

 

Do you ever have tune issues with the blend? We have to throw it on the dyno and retune a little before every event because the ethanol content can vary.

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Dont you start!

 

(my Z is E85 powered!)

I'm not starting anything! I run e85 in my STi.

 

It'd be nice to see e98 or other blends included in the rules (even if they were for points). That way people at least get the option of running it, instead of "it's not in the rules, so it's illegal."

 

Do you ever have tune issues with the blend? We have to throw it on the dyno and retune a little before every event because the ethanol content can vary.

 

It's not in the rules, so unfortunately you can't run it. It's a Flex Fuel gauge that will tell you ethanol % in your fuel, you just have to pirate a Flex Fuel sensor from a flex fuel vehicle or buy one new. It has a voltage output you could run to a standalone on a correction table that could eliminate the need to retune. Or you could find the K table value that worked with a certain % ethanol and just tweak that value based on ethanol %.

 

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.htm

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Do you ever have tune issues with the blend? We have to throw it on the dyno and retune a little before every event because the ethanol content can vary.

Checked with the distributor and they claim it is 85% all year round. I've never actually tested it, but my AFR always seems in line.

 

It's not in the rules, so unfortunately you can't run it. It's a Flex Fuel gauge that will tell you ethanol % in your fuel, you just have to pirate a Flex Fuel sensor from a flex fuel vehicle or buy one new. It has a voltage output you could run to a standalone on a correction table that could eliminate the need to retune. Or you could find the K table value that worked with a certain % ethanol and just tweak that value based on ethanol %.

 

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.htm

Here's a cheaper alternative to testing ethanol blends:

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_28&products_id=1624&osCsid=f12c4034b91d3825f89860653cb050b9

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I have read that it can go down to E70 in the winter, and as high as E90 in the summer. I have one of those testers, its been collecting dust in the garage.

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  • 1 month later...

Wow, just getting a good look at this thread now. I'd like to start by saying I'm glad I don't live in NorCal. How hard is it to just make a simple rule stating every inch lower or rearward from the oem top adds .5 points. I'm pretty sure that would cover it. All other mods made get points as usually including molded in rear wings, vortex gen, modified a pillar, etc.

 

As an example if the Mugen copy is 1" lower and 2" rearward it would be 1.5 points. If a Miata fastback is 24" longer it gets 12 points plus wing points. Make a nice rule that will cover everyone and let the racers use good judgement and protests work out the rest. Banning anything in TT is not the solution, making a points fair rule is.

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OK, so every 1" of variance is 1/2 point. Every 1" shorter, longer, taller, and narrower. What if it has a small lip on the back of it? More fractions of points. Vortex generators? At least there are already points listed for them. What if the rear glass portion is set forward a few inches, while the side panels are extended rearward an equal distance? Do the points cancel each other out? While we're at it, let's assess a fraction of a point for every 1" variance in front valences, spoilers, and all other body work.

 

What I'm basically trying to say is that this can quickly get out of hand, and nobody brings a wind tunnel or set of body templates to the track for tech inspection. Besides, when would there be any time for actually driving the car on track?

 

With that, I go back to the unofficial TT motto: Every frog has its warts.

 

Mark

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Lets step off the short bus for a minute. This isn't rocket science fella's.

 

"OEM hardtops are allowed. Any change from the factory dimensions gets .5 points for every inch lower and every inch rearward to the farthest edge of aftermarket hardtop and the lowest deviation compared to oem . Any aero modification not present on the oe hardtop get assessed standard aero points as per the GCR."

 

Done, took 5 minutes. Any other objections you worded earlier are moot.

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and how am *I* - the little regional dude - supposed to tell just how far off from OEM your hardtop is?

 

Back on the short bus for you.

 

KB - who would be in favor of a "+__ for any non-OEM profle hardtop" so both camps can meet in the middle.

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Its called google. Its called factory dimensions. Its called let the racers protest if someone is cheating. Its called annual tech sticker. Its called common sense. You can arm chair the possible Nasa Aerospace Engineer building the ultimate hardtop made out of nanomorph mimetic poly-alloy that has active aero, cockpit controled rear sway linked into the hardtop, and parachute pop assist all you want. The chances of that happening and not taking enough points are slim to none. The cool thing is, if it does happen we can start another 30 page thread and write another sweet rule in 5min flat. PM for help with that nanomorph mimetic poly-alloy as it can be tricky to write up a rule.

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and how am *I* - the little regional dude - supposed to tell just how far off from OEM your hardtop is?

 

Back on the short bus for you.

 

KB - who would be in favor of a "+__ for any non-OEM profle hardtop" so both camps can meet in the middle.

 

+1...

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Its called google. Its called factory dimensions. Its called let the racers protest if someone is cheating.

find me the exact 3d dimensions for an S2000. We'll start with that and go to more obscure cars from there If you can pull it off for every listed car then maybe you'd have a point.

Its called annual tech sticker.

That only covers safety inspection, so its basically irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. Try again.

Its called common sense.

effin Your posts alone are proof that it isn't very common, see below:

You can arm chair the possible Nasa Aerospace Engineer building the ultimate hardtop made out of nanomorph mimetic poly-alloy that has active aero, cockpit controled rear sway linked into the hardtop, and parachute pop assist all you want. The chances of that happening and not taking enough points are slim to none. The cool thing is, if it does happen we can start another 30 page thread and write another sweet rule in 5min flat. PM for help with that nanomorph mimetic poly-alloy as it can be tricky to write up a rule.

You really have no clue whatsoever about enforcement in this series. You know how often we catch common math errors on classification sheets? And those are honest mistakes!!!

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Ken, catching a math error has nothing to do with a non oe shape hardtop. Its the racers job to police their class. Instead of fighting me, one of your own TT guys from Texas. How about you write a rule?

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Ken, catching a math error has nothing to do with a non oe shape hardtop. Its the racers job to police their class. Instead of fighting me, one of your own TT guys from Texas. How about you write a rule?

Uhh, I did, but let me write it even better:

 

"+__ for any non-OEM shape hardtop (does not include vortex generators in rule G10). Must use rear window, no holes allowed."

 

 

Perfect compromise imho. No additonal unnessecary complexity added to the ruleset, no additional loopholes to exploit, no enforcement headaches when that inevitable protest happens (guess who officiates those regionally?) but allows these less expensive knockoff hardtops to cars/drivers that wish to run them in classes below TTS. Yes it might be a higher points value than they may feel is fair but no one is holding a gun to their head making them run that particular part in the first place.

 

Pick your car, pick your mods, and deal with where you land

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The problem is a 5-6 point rule to count for fastbacks is crushing TT racers buying non oe shape miniscule aero advantage cheap tops. I can think of tops for Corvettes, Boxsters, S2000, and Miata's that offer little no no aero advantage that wouldn't comply with the rule. A blanket X point rule is not the solution either. Its should read like the spoiler rule, because honestly this witch hunt is after fastbacks.

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PT/TT are classes that don't ban anything, unless it's safety related. This should remain so for the continued health of the TT/PT program.

 

I can not find any sound and unassailable logic in favor of banning non OEM shapes unless NASA also bans non OEM shape fender, side sills, noses, windshield frames.

 

It is clear that an aerodynamic advantage could be realized with a non OEM shape so it should be treated the same as a nose or fender shape change.

 

Proposal

 

G

13) Replace or modify OEM Hardtop shape or features with non-fastback. OEM hard top shape herein defined as within 1/2" of external OEM dimension. (note: Additional points must be assessed for any spoiler, vertical fins or vortex inducers integrated/attached into hardtop, see G.3),G8),G.10) +1

 

14) Add fastback hardtop that covers any portion of OEM trunk opening. (note: Additional points must be assessed for any spoiler, vertical fins or vortex inducers integrated/attached into fastback, see G.3),G8),G.10) +3

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