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New OEM Hardtop Rule G 2


dans2k

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Certainly reasonable for PT.

Then you've got TT and PT that don't match anymore. Which I personally don't see as a huge issue so long as its just a few tiny items but in the past Greg & National have been vehemently against the two series not being identical outside of competition format (best time vs wheel-to-wheel for position)

 

that could be a big can of worms to open though - do you think a Hoosier A helps a TT car as much as a PT car? And on down the list we go... brakes, etc, etc.

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I would have to agree I would be pretty pissed off if S2000 owners got an exception just for their car because its a bit more expensive, a grand wont hurt you in the long scheme of things.

 

BMW guys have to take +3 points for an underbrace that protects their oil pan that sits relatively low (and possibly saves at least 400 in the oil pan/pump) and yes that x-brace has already once saved my oil pan, we have to take the +4 for our rear control arms that literally flex in my girlfriend's hands. You asked for a solution which is more than your right, but now your trying to shove it all down our throats, I stand by that there IS AT LEAST an option for you guys to run hardtops (OEM or OEM Style). Guess what? A second-gen eclipse has NO oem hardtop or style option. I do think +4/5 is fair, and really opens the can of worms about altering the roofline on a coupe or sedan.

 

Sorry, but your point isnt valid, has been rejected a million times, and yet your still yelling. The ONLY reason you may think your getting somewhere is because he who yells the loudest typically gets heard the most.

 

I still think its hilarious that they base class you at a certain point, then give you free points for the hard top (that increase aero), and now you bitch cause you want more aero free for ONE particular car? Take the points assessment if you cant afford it, or even for FREE run your softtop where your car was base-classed anyway

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I think wolfpack is saying even the stock top should be assigned pts since it's such an advantage over soft tops or top down.

that's what Mark McKay was saying too...

 

I don't agree with charging them pts for any hardtop though. I do agree with charging them points for a top that isn't OEM shape and to only charge them the amt that makes sense when looking at the best possible case scenario car & top - aligns perfectly with the founding philosophies of the class, allows the part in if they wish, but also assesses the right amt of points - all is well in the world.

I heard my name. Are we back on topic so soon? Let's try to keep the irrelevant comments to a minimum.

 

I'll admit that I never gave much thought to assessing points for the installation of an OEM hardtop on a convertible until this thread (note that all soft-top cars must run with their tops down in Florida for safety reasons; your region may or may not differ).

 

Ignoring no-points modification g2 for a moment, there is this part of the TTA-TTF classification forms (focus on the portion that I underlined):

For purposes of NASA TT points assessments, the term OEM will be defined as follows: Any part that is identical in size,

shape, and functional characteristics compared to the part that originally came on the vehicle, from the manufacturer, as a

standard feature of the base model as it is listed in section 6.3 Base Classifications (factory options and specialty model parts

are considered non-OEM) or is listed as a standard replacement part by the OEM manufacturer. Some parts that are

produced by aftermarket manufacturers as generic replacement parts may not require a points assessment provided that: they

are the same size and shape, and have the same functional characteristics as the OEM part, and that they provide no

significant improvement in performance, longevity, or reliability. If you have any questions about the modification points,

consult your TT Director. Errors and omissions could result in disqualification and other penalties.

Now, I simply ask this: Did a removable hardtop come as a standard-issue, non-optional item on your soft-top convertible as it is listed in the TT base classifications, which was not a separate option that you had to request? If the answer is yes, then run the OEM hardtop without points assessments and have a nice day. However, if the answer is no, then I could fully support the position that installing a hardtop, OEM or otherwise, on a soft-top convertible (which is required to run with the soft top down) should be assessed modification points.

 

In my opinion, the existing no-points allowance for the installation of an OEM hardtop on a convertible is a gift horse that is being looked in the mouth.

 

Mark

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Then you've got TT and PT that don't match anymore. Which I personally don't see as a huge issue so long as its just a few tiny items but in the past Greg & National have been vehemently against the two series not being identical outside of competition format (best time vs wheel-to-wheel for position)

They should match, as it makes it easier for PT and TT drivers to "double-down" and compete in the equivalent TT and PT classes (with necessary safety gear) at events without further sets of classification forms, tech inspections, etc.

 

Mark

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Mark - you could make a case for everything on the free mod list being a points item instead using that arguement. Some I'll even agree with you on - like final drives, lightweight flywheels and seam welding to start with. Other items I'd be very against becoming points modifications such as cages, seats, harnesses - safety type items.

 

And yes I do understand why they have the two series as identical. It does make alot of sense to do so. But it would also not be the end of the world if just a few tiny items were different as well. Large differences - no way, I agree.

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I think wolfpack is saying even the stock top should be assigned pts since it's such an advantage over soft tops or top down.

 

I never mentioned points for an OE hardtop ONLY the cheapo Mugen.

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I think wolfpack is saying even the stock top should be assigned pts since it's such an advantage over soft tops or top down.

 

I never mentioned points for an OE hardtop ONLY the cheapo Mugen.

Yeah sorry, I read the wrong quote and by the time I noticed I'd already been quoted.

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I think wolfpack is saying even the stock top should be assigned pts since it's such an advantage over soft tops or top down.

 

I never mentioned points for an OE hardtop ONLY the cheapo Mugen.

Yeah sorry, I read the wrong quote and by the time I noticed I'd already been quoted.

good thing you're faster on the track than you are on the forums

 

- KB, who wishes it was the other way around for him

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Did a removable hardtop come as a standard-issue, non-optional item on your soft-top convertible as it is listed in the TT base classifications, which was not a separate option that you had to request? If the answer is yes, then run the OEM hardtop without points assessments and have a nice day. However, if the answer is no, then I could fully support the position that installing a hardtop, OEM or otherwise, on a soft-top convertible (which is required to run with the soft top down) should be assessed modification points.

 

In my opinion, the existing no-points allowance for the installation of an OEM hardtop on a convertible is a gift horse that is being looked in the mouth.

 

Mark

Are the rules and rankings currently in place supporting the potential hardtop utilization? Maybe we should give points back if we choose to no longer run the HT.

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I think If someone was smart and designed their own top it could be a 4 or 5 point mod.

Assuming a non fastback, do you have data or direct empirical evidence to support that? As someone who has fiddled around with that, I know that the big gains are with the fastback and a slightly altered OEM shape does little.

 

I think everyone agrees that a non OEM shape has potential for gain. My dog in the race is the Miata fastback, which is illegal as the rules are written now. I'd like to change that.

 

I also believe that a shape that does not extend over the trunk should not be assessed fast back points. But if NASA is not willing to create a tiered rule for both types, then at least allow the fastback and lump everything else that's non OEM in with it.

 

I still haven't really seen a clear and simple reason why the fastback is being banned posted here. Am I missing something?

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Agreed that it is uncalled for and inappropriate but the point is valid. Don't run away from the issue because someone on the other side is impolite.

 

he's back, you're just a few pages behind right now still

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If someone wanted to make a magically advantageous hardtop that would be the equivalent of 5 points, wouldn't they have made it by now? Several people mentioned that a racer would go to extremes to gain the slightest advantage - and that the rules are written to consider the optimal design. In the X number of years that TT has had a 0-points hardtop option, has anyone seen a hardtop with a drastic change in roofline that would warrant the same amount of increase as going from street tires to RA1's?Maybe it has and I don't know about it. Or maybe it will someday. But it's not rampant and widespread. And as such, I don't think it's unreasonable for specific exceptions.

 

In regards to the sentiment of removing a 0-points hardtop option altogether - I'm fine with that as long as you lower the base classes. Most, if not all, competitive S2000 racers (or any convertible racer for that matter) probably ran a hardtop in previous years and most people thought they were relatively fairly classed. So make a hardtop X points and drop our base classes by X points. If you want to run a hardtop, you are exactly where you were last year. If you don't, then you can find 7 points elsewhere. Basically, I see the whole free-points thing as assuming everyone is going to do it. If an AP1 S2000 is TTD** assuming they will have a hardtop, then if you make a hardtop worth points, then it should drop down to TTD*.

 

[Edit: FWIW, I run an S2000 CR which came as a trim level without a soft top and came with a standard hard top]

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Agreed that it is uncalled for and inappropriate but the point is valid. Don't run away from the issue because someone on the other side is impolite.

Personal feelings about Nazis and slavery notwithstanding, when a person makes inappropriate and unnecessary analogies like that, it tells me that trying to have a healthy discussion with him is as productive as trying to kick water uphill, for which I have no time to waste.

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of how many points to assess to all convertibles that install optional hardtops.

 

Mark

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If someone wanted to make a magically advantageous hardtop that would be the equivalent of 5 points, wouldn't they have made it by now? Several people mentioned that a racer would go to extremes to gain the slightest advantage - and that the rules are written to consider the optimal design. In the X number of years that TT has had a 0-points hardtop option, has anyone seen a hardtop with a drastic change in roofline that would warrant the same amount of increase as going from street tires to RA1's?Maybe it has and I don't know about it. Or maybe it will someday. But it's not rampant and widespread. And as such, I don't think it's unreasonable for specific exceptions.

 

In regards to the sentiment of removing a 0-points hardtop option altogether - I'm fine with that as long as you lower the base classes. Most, if not all, competitive S2000 racers (or any convertible racer for that matter) probably ran a hardtop in previous years and most people thought they were relatively fairly classed. So make a hardtop X points and drop our base classes by X points. If you want to run a hardtop, you are exactly where you were last year. If you don't, then you can find 7 points elsewhere. Basically, I see the whole free-points thing as assuming everyone is going to do it. If an AP1 S2000 is TTD** assuming they will have a hardtop, then if you make a hardtop worth points, then it should drop down to TTD*.

 

[Edit: FWIW, I run an S2000 CR which came as a trim level without a soft top and came with a standard hard top]

 

hmmm..A stock hardtop as a 7pt mod? I don't think the stock top is a 7pt mod. If it is, does that make the Mugen top 12pts? How about- If you run without a top (soft or OE hard) you can drop base weight 100lbs

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Agreed that it is uncalled for and inappropriate but the point is valid. Don't run away from the issue because someone on the other side is impolite.

 

he's back, you're just a few pages behind right now still

 

Besides the fact that you and the other Directors are belittling your customer base with almost every post, you are now mocking Emilio Cervantes owner of 949racing. This isn't just some schmuck. He is one of the most knowledgable people on this topic that you could possible have in this thread. He has done more experimenting with miata aero then probably anyone in the country. He is also no slouch behind the wheel.

 

http://autoeclectic.com/trackhq

 

http://www.949racing.com

 

http://www.supermiata.com

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hmmm..A stock hardtop as a 7pt mod? I don't think the stock top is a 7pt mod. If it is, does that make the Mugen top 12pts? How about- If you run without a top (soft or OE hard) you can drop base weight 100lbs

 

Yeah, didn't really mean to use real numbers. Point being, if they are going to make all tops worth points, then the base class should change accordingly, in either points or weight, since it is the same car as the previous year.

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It would've been nice to see this rule in place from the start, but it wasn't...

 

I've seen quite a few pretty extreme fastback type hardtops in TT over the years, and not just on S2000s either. A friend of mine ran a Cayman-esque hardtop on his Boxster at Nationals 2008 for example that replaced the trunklid and "top" areas, plus there are some new ones coming out for Miatas that are similar to that one that my friend ran, and so on. I even think one or two of the previous champs in S2000s might've had a pretty extreme fastback type hardtops now that I think about it.

 

Good point about a potential base class break for some of those cars though Platinum. One might attribute some of the weight and/or asterix gain on the S2000 to these fastback type tops that some people were running. Now that the loophole in that free mod is off the table an appropriate reduction should be done if that is indeed part of the reason they did get bumped up in the first place.

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Agreed that it is uncalled for and inappropriate but the point is valid. Don't run away from the issue because someone on the other side is impolite.

 

he's back, you're just a few pages behind right now still

 

Besides the fact that you and the other Directors are belittling your customer base with almost every post, you are now mocking Emilio Cervantes owner of 949racing. This isn't just some schmuck. He is one of the most knowledgable people on this topic that you could possible have in this thread. He has done more experimenting with miata aero then probably anyone in the country. He is also no slouch behind the wheel.

 

http://autoeclectic.com/trackhq

 

http://www.949racing.com

 

http://www.supermiata.com

oh jesus christ, really? Are we all that sensitive?

 

I'll give you a hug at the next event, mkay??!? Or would beer be better?

 

ps - now I'm actually giving you a hard time, and rightly so. Previously I was doing my absolute damnedest to help you understand WHY things are the way they are and help you formulate your arguement to Greg in such a way that you can get as much of what you want as is possible. If that's belittling the customer base, being a dick, or whatever you want to say then I am 100% guilty as charged. But to attack me when I'm doing my absolute best to help you understand and formulate an argument to get what you want is absolutley wrong and quite honestly a slap in the face. You should step back for a bit, go back, and really read ALL of the words I'm posting and I bet you'll see things in a much different light and feel bad for saying what you did.

 

pps - don't give smeone a hard time if you don't want one back. Emelio was doing a bit of razzing and got a bit of lighthearted razzing back. It happens in the paddock, in grid, at work, and all over the internet too. I bet being a successful buisness person and experienced racer he's been around the block a few times and knows this and doesn't need someone running to his rescue.

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It would've been nice to see this rule in place from the start, but it wasn't...

 

I've seen quite a few pretty extreme fastback type hardtops in TT over the years, and not just on S2000s either. A friend of mine ran a Cayman-esque hardtop on his Boxster at Nationals 2008 for example that replaced the trunklid and "top" areas, plus there are some new ones coming out for Miatas that are similar to that one that my friend ran, and so on. I even think one or two of the previous champs in S2000s might've had a pretty extreme fastback type hardtops now that I think about it.

 

Good point about a potential base class break for some of those cars though Platinum. One might attribute some of the weight and/or asterix gain on the S2000 to these fastback type tops that some people were running. Now that the loophole in that free mod is off the table an appropriate reduction should be done if that is indeed part of the reason they did get bumped up in the first place.

 

Could we then say something like lower the base class or weight, make OEM hardtops 3 points, aftermarket hardtops 5 points, and fastback hardtops (extend past the trunk hinge) 7 points. Or something similar (just throwing out numbers).

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That's a great Greg question on all of that line of thinking - I don't have access to that kind of information to be able to tell you much of anything concrete, just pretty good educated guesses from being around the series for so long and really paying attention to the evolution of the ruleset, the series, and the cars running out there.

 

My educated guess though is that you'll see OEM shape tops continue to stay as a freebie, I bet if Greg/National wanted them as a points mod they would've already been moved to being a points-mod during this past offseason when that line-item was clarified. Very possible to get a line-item added for these non-OEM shape tops at +___ however I'll bet which is why I've been encouraging those guys to ask for that since its a winnable position and beats them being outlawed outright. But apparently I'm a dick for doing so

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One of the most knowledgeable people on this topic that you could possibly have in this thread, who has done more experimenting with Miata aero then probably anyone in the country, and who is also no slouch behind the wheel (additionally, who I have met a few times, I have raced with, I like, and I won't mention by name until he "outs" himself lol) told me that a Spec Miata with the hardtop installed will run, say, 100 mph at a certain point on a track. If a similar Spec Miata is on that same point on the same track, but without the hardtop installed, and with the top down, it will only be going 96 mph. He was that guy standing next to me in the Tilton booth at PRI last December, looking at pedal assemblies...hmm, who was it...

 

Going back to my street-car drag racing days, every gain of approximately 10 hp equated to a 1 mph gain in top-end speed at the end of 1/4 mile (note that these numbers are not absolutes, but you see my point; this was in the days before chassis dynos were on every corner). My TTD Mustang has made dragstrip passes at 97 mph. While comparing a Spec Miata to a stock 2004 Mustang GT in a drag race isn't quite equal (that was a disclaimer), adding 4 mph to my Mustang's 97 mph speed would require an additional ~40 hp if the only permitted changes were in the engine department. Now, in TT, ~40 hp worth of engine modifications will cost points (and may bump you up 1 or 2 classes, based on your adjusted weight/hp ratio). But, if that same speed gain was made aerodynamically with the installation of a hardtop on a convertible (again, with the top down, as per the rules in some or maybe all regions), then the gain is free in regards to modification points.

 

Who wants ~40 hp for no points? I sure do! Where can I sign up?

 

Another disclaimer, because I know somebody will mention it: While my Mustang will hit 97 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile dragstrip, it might take a Spec Miata 3/8 or 1/2 mile to hit that same speed. If I ran my Mustang that far, it will be in the 110+ mph neighborhood, where the aero drag affects the car more and requires more horsepower to overcome it.

 

Mark

 

On edit: It might be helpful if TT took a national stand on requiring convertibles to compete with their soft tops down, or if they are allowed to run with their soft tops up. It appears that this varies on a region-by-region basis, and some consistency might help to reduce confusion.

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and they're calling people like me that are trying to reach a comprimise on this issue all kinds of names ...

 

Popcorn at the ready for this one...

 

who's calling you names mr. brew? i'll murder'em if they touch one red hair on your beautiful head. you've been nothing but helpful everytime i've talked to you. why do you think i man/bro hugged you at the awards banquet! okay, it was more of a don't leave to work daddy type of hug, but it's not gay if no eye contact was made.

 

wait your not throwing yourself in with the one guy that implied that it's better to just be quiet than stand up and say something are you? cuz i personally don't have anything against nazi's, or slave owners for that matter. (yes i'm kidding, i really don't like them) but i do care when someone thinks that we should just dumb down and be quiet, instead of talking about something we believe in. i also sure as hell don't take kindly to threats. ("maybe you guys should just shut up before you open up a can of worms" is the quote, iirc. while my analogy may have been a bit ridiculous, so is the "banning" of a hardtop in TT. sure, no ones life is on the line, but honestly, i'm trying to save nasa from losing a bunch of potential TT'ers, which are potential future w2w'ers. maybe it's not that big a deal to you guys though. i know of some scca officials that hated having a bunch of new blood. (my friends and i) they too changed rules, on a monthly basis in some cases to prevent us from joining in. apparently we were causing them to work, cutting into their driving time. maybe nasa has enough tt'ers. or too many.

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