What Would AI2 Have Looked Like?

[kbrew8991]

go back and see who brough it up first - wasn't me back to reading

[robbodleimages]

That would KILL NASA! AI/CMC guys would go run with Northeast Iron, Asedan/ITR, or some other V8 Pony car class.

What other V8 pony car class? Is there another one?

[QUASAR]

I don't have time to read thru 13 pages at the moment but I can't figure out why on earth would we want to add a 5th ponycar class and dillute the field? Make adjustments to the current ruleset if needed to move forward (announce major changes a few years in advance) but don't add another one. Ask yourself, where is the value added?? If you are uncompetitive now, you'll still be uncompetitive in AI-1 or AI-2.

 

As far as tires, do we really want a tire thats good for a few cycles then junk? No matter what tire we're on, WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT. Toyos suck and they suck the same for everyone. So why wouldn't we want the one that is the most consistent for the longest amount of time? If there was one thing I could change about the tires we use it would be to have a version of the RA-1 as a DOT slick with no tread to shave. 275 max width, 9 or 9.5" rims. Man up and drive the damn car. These are muscle cars, they're supposed to be a little raw.

 

Power; as technology improves and the oem's make more and more power increasing AI horsepower is not that bad of an idea. Horsepower is till relatively cheap. But lets not go crazy. The logical choice moving forward would be 8.7:1.

 

I would rather have one AI with a ruleset I didn't like and have to step back to an existing class (CMC2) then dillute things further.

[K Shaw]

On other random notes, allow equal trackwidth for all cars, have a minimum ride height that keeps cars from dragging on the ground, and encourage more v6 participation into CMC.

It has to be legal before it can be encouraged. And I have been asking for just this for 5 years. 4th gen V6 cars are dirt cheap. V6 5th gen's make great CMC2 numbers.

 

I like it.

 

kyle

[nape]

John Cece for Vice National Director.

[robbodleimages]

As far as tires, do we really want a tire thats good for a few cycles then junk? No matter what tire we're on, WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT. Toyos suck and they suck the same for everyone. So why wouldn't we want the one that is the most consistent for the longest amount of time? If there was one thing I could change about the tires we use it would be to have a version of the RA-1 as a DOT slick with no tread to shave. 275 max width, 9 or 9.5" rims. Man up and drive the damn car. These are muscle cars, they're supposed to be a little raw..

 

Not to argue. The BF Goodrich R1 runs its competitive lap times thru as many heat cycles as the Toyo that is shaved to 4/32s or at least that is my experience. Those tires cost 10 dollars more at 17" than the Toyo and about $100 less in the 18". Its fast and I would run that tire against any other DOT.

 

I'd add that the relationship with Toyo has been getting progressively worse over the recent seasons. The R888 debacle, the reduction in contigency, and not the unavailability of spec tires to buy. Its not been pretty.

[Jim P.]

Guys,

This is the natural evolution of American Iron. I have been running in AI/CMC/AIX cars for years, I have built cars for every level, so much so that the latest Camaro I built is #846 - which is the 6th AI/CMC/CMC2 car I have built, raced and sold (all of my cars have #84 on them somewhere).

 

First there was CMC and all was wonderful, then along came AI/AIX and the series exploded - went bi-coastal and everyone loved it! Then along came CMC2 because the CMC ruleset was too limiting for the newer cars. CMC2 has exploded and now CMC is almost extinct. It is the natural progression of a healthy race series.

 

What is coming out of detroit is much more powerful and sophisticated than anything we are racing now. Every year I get a kick out of the AI rules update "b*tch" sessions where everybody complains that the new cars are getting all types of concessions?!?! Every year many of you complain that "the cost of AI is out of control" - I call BS - because what you are really saying is "Don't let new cars in because my car isn't as competitive".

 

Why limit AI? We might as well call it A-Sedan or worse yet NASCAR - and stick with antiquated technologies. Sooner or later no one will support the series because the market for antiques is always shrinking. If you want to stick to Vintage parts/cars then contact Gordon Slingerland in the SE - he is developing an Outlaw Vintage series for those who hate technology!

 

Why dumb down and devolve the new cars to suit our class? Why not develop a new class for these cars like we did for CMC2? Anyone running in AI currently can upgrade to AI2 or stay in AI.

 

What I see for AI2:

1) better HP:WT ratio

2) allowance for forced induction

3) any ABS allowed

4) larger wheels - 18"

5) Any DOT tire

 

I applaud Todd & the other AI Series Directors for having the foresight to keep AI alive by evolving the series to accommodate all of the awesome new stuff coming out of Detroit.

 

Here's what I see for classes:

CMC - dying on the vine, Toyo tires

CMC2 - updated cars, decent stock HP limits

AI - older cars, non-ABS, Toyo Tires, 275-40R17 tire limits, 9.5:1

AI2 - faster cars, ABS, DOT tire, 18x10 wheel limit, 8:1 HP ratio

AIX - Xtreme means just that, the sky is the limit so you need $$$ or ingenuity to win!

 

I picture CMC2 becoming "CMC" in the future and AI2 becoming "AI" as technology evolves and the antiquated cars start losing sources for parts...

 

Lastly, I am not sure what region(s) all of you run in but I can vouch that CMC2/AI/AIX is healthy and growing here in the SE!

 

-Jim Pantas

http://www.WildHorsesRacing.com

 

FWIW - I started racing in AI 2 years before this picture was taken, and this young lady is now in college...

[T&A Racing]

Jim,

 

Some pretty sound logic it all makes sense, I just don't think the facts are correct. The 2011 production cars are easily able to make our current power to weight rules and a small tweak could help future proof that. We currently allow abs from the factory (ford is the only one that works and maybe not that well). I still don't see the data to support the logic. Believe me like everyone I am very invested in AI and want it to be a viable place to race for as many years as possible. If there are some facts that support the logic that are not on the table lets get them out so we can all make good choices.

 

Thanks

Mark

[nape]

I picture CMC2 becoming "CMC" in the future and AI2 becoming "AI" as technology evolves and the antiquated cars start losing sources for parts...

 

Lastly, I am not sure what region(s) all of you run in but I can vouch that CMC2/AI/AIX is healthy and growing here in the SE!

 

-Jim Pantas

 

Antiquated is only seen that way by those who don't have vision. I'm thinking a 2nd Gen Trans Am with an aero'd up nose would be hot shit in AI. Same wheelbase and allowable trackwidth as an S197 plus an SLA and years of circle track ingenuity.

 

All race cars have 4 tires and some tubes welded together. Everything it's capable of doing is up to it's creator to make happen. Those of us who are struggling to be middle-class would rather make it out of a $300 heap destined for a junkyard then a $5000+ BIW from a manufacturer or a $30000+ ex-factory race car.

 

However, turning AI into any more of a money class will be the death blow and CMC will grow by leaps and bounds. Running an open tire sounds great until you're running a $1000+ set of tires every weekend, another $1000 set for qualifying at big events, etc. That puts me right out of the picture, no matter how good the contingency gets. I've bought one set of new Toyos with my money since I've been racing AI, and those were the R888s. If I can't win new ones, I buy scuffs.

[stevepoe]

This is the natural evolution of American Iron. I have been running in AI/CMC/AIX cars for years, I have built cars for every level, so much so that the latest Camaro I built is #846 - which is the 6th AI/CMC/CMC2 car I have built, raced and sold (all of my cars have #84 on them somewhere).

 

First there was CMC and all was wonderful, then along came AI/AIX and the series exploded - went bi-coastal and everyone loved it! Then along came CMC2 because the CMC ruleset was too limiting for the newer cars. CMC2 has exploded and now CMC is almost extinct. It is the natural progression of a healthy race series.

 

What is coming out of detroit is much more powerful and sophisticated than anything we are racing now. Every year I get a kick out of the AI rules update "b*tch" sessions where everybody complains that the new cars are getting all types of concessions?!?! Every year many of you complain that "the cost of AI is out of control" - I call BS - because what you are really saying is "Don't let new cars in because my car isn't as competitive".

 

Why limit AI? We might as well call it A-Sedan or worse yet NASCAR - and stick with antiquated technologies. Sooner or later no one will support the series because the market for antiques is always shrinking. If you want to stick to Vintage parts/cars then contact Gordon Slingerland in the SE - he is developing an Outlaw Vintage series for those who hate technology!

 

Why dumb down and devolve the new cars to suit our class? Why not develop a new class for these cars like we did for CMC2? Anyone running in AI currently can upgrade to AI2 or stay in AI.

 

What I see for AI2:

1) better HP:WT ratio

2) allowance for forced induction

3) any ABS allowed

4) larger wheels - 18"

5) Any DOT tire

 

I applaud Todd & the other AI Series Directors for having the foresight to keep AI alive by evolving the series to accommodate all of the awesome new stuff coming out of Detroit.

 

Here's what I see for classes:

CMC - dying on the vine, Toyo tires

CMC2 - updated cars, decent stock HP limits

AI - older cars, non-ABS, Toyo Tires, 275-40R17 tire limits, 9.5:1

AI2 - faster cars, ABS, DOT tire, 18x10 wheel limit, 8:1 HP ratio

AIX - Xtreme means just that, the sky is the limit so you need $$$ or ingenuity to win!

 

I picture CMC2 becoming "CMC" in the future and AI2 becoming "AI" as technology evolves and the antiquated cars start losing sources for parts...

 

Lastly, I am not sure what region(s) all of you run in but I can vouch that CMC2/AI/AIX is healthy and growing here in the SE!

 

-Jim Pantas

 

 

+1 exactly what I was saying -thinking .

 

Another thing, Why has the talk of AI2 turned into the death AI . Has not anyone looked at it as the new aix ?

[Burnett]

What I alluded to in an earlier post is that the CMC split was a monumental failure. Only now is it coming back together after 5 years of 2 half fields. It was announced in 06 for 07 but all it served to do, as AI2 will, is split an otherwise excellent field of cars. It would have been better for them then, as it is for us now, to adjust the power at a point in time and go with it. If some cars don’t fit well right away at least they won’t draw others away as CMC2 did for CMC. If there had just been a big picture approach for them we would all be benefiting from it. I know the CMC guy don’t want us dragging them into our discussion but they just suffered through what is being proposed for us. They are the example of what not to do. We are connected, like it or not, CMC IS American Iron (you aint driving Hondas boys). We all want car count but as a racer I want them in MY class, someone to race, to raise the challenge.

With emotions a bit raw; dare I say that I wish I had not spent the money to move my CMC2 car to AI already? Let’s see what happens!

 

Robin

"brave brave sir Robin"

 

Steve, it's a half inch of wheel and a restrictor plate away from AI, how the hell can I see it as the new AIX? No one asked what AIX2 should look like. I don't want 5 of you knuckle heads going off to run AIX2 with just 15-25 HP more than AI. Pick a class!

[King Matt]

Robin has is exactly right. The problem with CMC2 was not so much the concept as the implementation. The class should have initially been limited solely to the new cars it was created to attract to give it some time to prove the validity of the concept and interest level. Instead some (and only some) of the older cars were allowed to convert, thus splitting the fields in half. If there truly is a pent-up demand for AI2-spec cars that is not being served, write the rules such that initially only the specific cars you intend to attract are eligible and see if they actually come.

[stevepoe]

Steve, it's a half inch of wheel and a restrictor plate away from AI, how the hell can I see it as the new AIX? No one asked what AIX2 should look like. I don't want 5 of you knuckle heads going off to run AIX2 with just 15-25 HP more than AI. Pick a class!

 

Every year for the last couple years this type of post is always brought up "new rules" It always seems to be the same crap. 18" wheels being to much money. 14" brakes , Race abs etc. etc . Camaro boys saying they are done because of race abs ....so imagine all these things talked about that are not fair for ai guys being moved into ai2.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Guest

[Red Tornado]

Always enjoy reading everyones posts. Some great comments and insights.

 

As one of those guys now with a new car who will be running world challenge also I think a few comments hit home.

 

(oh fyi I planned on running ai and just adding a restrictor and swapping tires or leaving in WC trim to run ST2) Trying world challenge but love nasa american iron!!!

 

Let's call out the obvious:

- we have no real sponsors at all right now. Well besides what every other nasa class has.

- Toyo doesn't give us squat vs hoosiers and why do we go with a non US tire for american iron again??

- Nearly everyone wants their current car to be capable of winning and to be competitive

- everyone likes to run with a big field

- Most everyone wants to always go faster but not at a major increase in cost.

 

 

So I have listened and am changing my vote to no AI2 with following thoughts:

 

- 1 class means more cars means more fun.

- Everyone needs to be cool with not every car will be the best possible car and newer factory cars who support our series should be on the high end of competitive (read the first mission statement of American Iron rules) but not so it isn't a fair field.

- Change our spec tire and allow DOT's like hoosiers or BFG!!!

- allow a bump to 8.7 to 1 so folks can run ST2 if field is light (nowadays you can buy many a cheap motor which get's you way above that level.

 

Todd, maybe at the 5 big events this year (decide which) you can lead a group discussion about pro's and con's and thoughts so everyone can weigh-in and mold where it is going and there voice can be heard?

 

Personally I love the series and that's why I bought car I did. I can play in so many places but the most fun is always AI

[Tommy55]

I don't get it. Are we trying to accommodate for the new factory cars or are we trying to accommodate for the pro drivers to come to our series. Lets just tweak AI a little with a small power gain. Leave the tires alone as they last a long time and are relatively inexpensive. If the pro's and the mustang challenge cars want to come race, then they need to make there cars fit within the rules, not change the rules for them

[D Algozine]

Instead of AI 2, I think it should be called AI 1/2. The master plan is to add an entirely new class within a series that is no where near a healthy car count, and the new rule set is 1/2 a degree different. All because there might be a couple guys who want to be able to run in multiple series. Cant find the logic. Sorry, but the new breed of pony cars still perfectly fit into the existing AI rule set. Nix the race ABS and put a slight HP increase in two years.

Who exactly is going to run in this new class? No, I'm serious, who is definately going to A12 if it happens, and Why?

Talk about a huge opportunity for out of class racing. If there were some AI2 guys, we would be running all over each other, and trying to keep track of exactly who you are truely racing against gets blurred.

dare I say that I wish I had not spent the money to move my CMC2 car to AI already?

Robin, Just today in an email, I questioned my choice to stay in AI with my new car, also.

 

If the plan is to copy CMC, by fracturing the class, with a long term plan to eliminate one, so they can again be united. Lets, come up with a better plan. The last few years of CMC have been very strange. "Are they racing?", "no he's in 2, the other guy is in 1". "What about that guy?" " Not sure, I think he just switched".

[D Algozine]

My other theory, An old Human Resourse trick, also used in negotiating (its called a red herring)

 

Tangle something absurd out to the masses, so that when it comes time to make other changes, they will seem far less absurd when compared. I"ve seen it done.

 

Example: 25% pay cut across the board............. Or we all will have to work 12 hour days for straight time.

Just a theory

 

Edit : clarity

Edited February 1, 2011 by Guest

[Tommy55]

I believe...

[MikeP-99Z]

I'd say this thread is a BS session to fix AI - since someone else put the red herring notion on the table already. But you need to fix AI now, not 2 or 3 years from now.

 

I'm not waiting 3 years for this to be fixed. C5s and C6s are going for cheaper and cheaper - about the same price as a racing ABS system and a 14" brake kit...

[D Algozine]

Guys,

This is the natural evolution of American Iron. I have been running in AI/CMC/AIX cars for years, I have built cars for every level, so much so that the latest Camaro I built is #846 - which is the 6th AI/CMC/CMC2 car I have built, raced and sold (all of my cars have #84 on them somewhere).

 

First there was CMC and all was wonderful, then along came AI/AIX and the series exploded - went bi-coastal and everyone loved it! Then along came CMC2 because the CMC ruleset was too limiting for the newer cars. CMC2 has exploded and now CMC is almost extinct. It is the natural progression of a healthy race series.

 

What is coming out of detroit is much more powerful and sophisticated than anything we are racing now. Every year I get a kick out of the AI rules update "b*tch" sessions where everybody complains that the new cars are getting all types of concessions?!?! Every year many of you complain that "the cost of AI is out of control" - I call BS - because what you are really saying is "Don't let new cars in because my car isn't as competitive".

 

Why limit AI? We might as well call it A-Sedan or worse yet NASCAR - and stick with antiquated technologies. Sooner or later no one will support the series because the market for antiques is always shrinking. If you want to stick to Vintage parts/cars then contact Gordon Slingerland in the SE - he is developing an Outlaw Vintage series for those who hate technology!

 

Why dumb down and devolve the new cars to suit our class? Why not develop a new class for these cars like we did for CMC2? Anyone running in AI currently can upgrade to AI2 or stay in AI.

 

What I see for AI2:

1) better HP:WT ratio

2) allowance for forced induction

3) any ABS allowed

4) larger wheels - 18"

5) Any DOT tire

 

I applaud Todd & the other AI Series Directors for having the foresight to keep AI alive by evolving the series to accommodate all of the awesome new stuff coming out of Detroit.

 

Here's what I see for classes:

CMC - dying on the vine, Toyo tires

CMC2 - updated cars, decent stock HP limits

AI - older cars, non-ABS, Toyo Tires, 275-40R17 tire limits, 9.5:1

AI2 - faster cars, ABS, DOT tire, 18x10 wheel limit, 8:1 HP ratio

AIX - Xtreme means just that, the sky is the limit so you need $$$ or ingenuity to win!

 

I picture CMC2 becoming "CMC" in the future and AI2 becoming "AI" as technology evolves and the antiquated cars start losing sources for parts...

 

Lastly, I am not sure what region(s) all of you run in but I can vouch that CMC2/AI/AIX is healthy and growing here in the SE!

 

-Jim Pantas

FWIW - I started racing in AI 2 years before this picture was taken, and this young lady is now in college...

 

Sorry, can't let it go. I know, I tried, but......

Definately cant agree with nearly all of this.

"Evolution of new cars

". Wrong, read race ABS, race trans, plus HP to weight is perfect for AI. very little to do with new cars

 

What is so saphisticated about the new cars in AI race trim? Four contact patches and a steering wheel , same, same..

 

"Why limit AI? We might as well call it A-Sedan or worse yet NASCAR - and stick with antiquated technologies. Sooner or later no one will support the series because the market for antiques is always shrinking."

The only guys supporting AI are TOYO, brake pads, and suspension. How does that change if we don't have paddle shift, drive by wire, and ......what ever else. Not sure about what engine technology that is current being supported in AI. You can still by coils and carbs from Summitt and Jegs. I applaud AS and NASACAR for using the KISS method for certain systems.

 

"Don't let new cars in because my car isn't as competitive".

This one kind of pi$$es me off alittle. My car didn't get the wheel diameter changed to best suit my platform. My car can't be out fitted with the lastest race ABS from Ford Racing, my car was built with a trans for less then $4,500, and didn't come from the factory with perfectly matched ratio's for my exact end use of road racing, and cost $7k

 

Better HP to weight - It's not bad now. The new cars are heavier.

 

Forced induction for 425 hp. Thats silly. What a huge wast of money

 

Any ABS - Really any? That doesn't sound like that could get crazy, like maybe unlimited HP did in AIX.

 

Larger wheels 18" - This has already been given

 

Any DOT tire - Which means, everyone buy Hoosiers, which have the best grip, but only last a few sessions. $$$

[rpoz27]

A 275 tire in ST2 puts you at 8.4:1 not 8.7:1 for any who are interested.

[nape]

A 275 tire in ST2 puts you at 8.4:1 not 8.7:1 for any who are interested.

 

Hey look, a class that already exists for all the stuff that's being proposed for AI2...

[brucebyerly]

Always enjoy reading everyones posts. Some great comments and insights.

 

As one of those guys now with a new car who will be running world challenge also I think a few comments hit home.

 

- Toyo doesn't give us squat vs hoosiers and why do we go with a non US tire for american iron again??

- Change our spec tire and allow DOT's like hoosiers or BFG!!!

- allow a bump to 8.7 to 1 so folks can run ST2 if field is light (nowadays you can buy many a cheap motor which get's you way above that level.

 

 

Chris -- are you telling me with a straight face that it wouldn't triple a seasons' tire cost to run Hoosiers, BFG's, Continentals, or Goodyears? Maybe I'm all wet, but I don't see how different tires help more cars show up - especially when it will escalate the cost. I also don't think the current tires are broken. Ok, you guys may (should) work over Toyo to get the cost of 18's in-line, but otherwise things seem OK. Slow, but OK.

 

And I don't see any benefit in adjusting the power to weight argument either. I finally got over 300 rwhp! It only cost 3 or 4K for cams and what not. I know, a guy can get 400 rwhp with one phone call and $29.95/mo and my car should weigh 2,800 lbs easy with a one weekend diet plan but that bs doesn't work in my world and I KNOW you know better too. One step at a time . . .

 

Even if I buy a brand new car or even an old FR500C, both of which I'm considering, I don't see the disadvantage of the current, lower power level. Maybe fewer broken parts. What am I missing? If we bump up the power, I see several guys I know struggling to get back to power/weight with currently taxed budgets and engines and that's not really a benefit. I want to race, not fit the rules to my new car. Regarding Jim's comments, I'm all for new technology and new cars. Unlike Grand Am, however, I think we shoudl encourage the old cars to stay in too. Like old red fox body mustangs

 

Also, last I checked, Ford had sent me exactly "$0" for all of the podiums over the years. Maybe I should check with Government Motors for their support package.

 

I will buy or build a new car within 12 mos - let's put this all to bed so I can keep shopping

[tacovini]

Oh boy...I left for the racetrack at Page 5 and came back to Page 15!!!

I've got some catching up to do! I'll post up a few Texas AICMC racing videos from the weekend as a diversion for all you snowbirds banging away at the keyboard.

 

We're not going to let this linger...but do give me a few days to catch up on everyone's posts.

<>

 

-=- Todd

[05 Ross]

I agree with many who have posted here that Todds vision for an AI2 class as he outlined will just draw cars from the existing AI field, I think there are very few AI cars "parked" because the owners cannot or will not reduce their power, but I do think there are alot of AIX cars "parked" (or running other series) because owners feel they don't have enough power to compete. (thankyou Chris and Paul F) If Nasa wants to create another class to increase car counts this is where I would look to draw cars from.

I would have AI2 be an AIX limited class, use most of the existing AIX rules, $6000 max trans, open aero, 78" max width, restricted firewall and tub mods etc., but with the following changes:

 

Make all cars similar/same weight and HP/TQ..... I think a 3500lb 700hp (5:1) car racing against a 2700lb 540hp (5:1) car often makes for frustrated drivers, also the dyno cheaters will be more obvious.

 

600 RW HP/TQ, a well built NA engine or a very basic boosted engine should make these numbers, but check what existing cars have ?? 550 would still be fun.

3000 lb minimum weight with driver, older cars should easily get there without expensive aluminum engine blocks and carbon fiber body panels, newer model cars will have to spend on light stuff but guys building newer cars usually can and will spend more.

315 x 18" max size DOT tire F&R, any wheel.

No ABS, I think most existing AIX cars don't have it, also lets welcome our GM brothers.

3" min ride height, nothing (except the wheel/tire) will be less than 3" from the ground, this is a more common and IMO better way to measure cars.

I would also add additional rules designed to make cheating the dyno more difficult....now is not the time to go into that.

 

Ross Murray AI2 ?? #74