TurboShortBus Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 When a car is lowered, the stock swaybar can be pre-loaded How does this happen when a car is lowered equally from side to side? In my experience on Mustangs and E30s, lowering the car simply rotates the ends of the chassis-mounted swaybar up, and it rotates them equally (you can do it by hand with the end links removed). If anything, you will be affecting the rate of the swaybar, as you are effectively shortening the lever arm on each end if they are not horizontal; the cure is to adjust the end link lengths. Now, if the ride height of the LF corner is left alone and the ride height of the RF corner is lowered, and the swaybar end links are left at their original lengths, then the swaybar will be preloaded. Or, if the LF and RF of the car are lowered equally, but the swaybar end links are of different lengths, then the swaybar will be preloaded as well. Or, am I working on freakishly weird cars that have strange and unique swaybar properties? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It has a shaft in the middle that is reverse threaded on one end so I can adjust the link length w/o disconnecting it from either end. Yeah, but you won't know if you've relieved any preload without disconnecting at least one end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It has a shaft in the middle that is reverse threaded on one end so I can adjust the link length w/o disconnecting it from either end. Yeah, but you won't know if you've relieved any preload without disconnecting at least one end. That's true.... I just lowered the car onto jackstands under the LCAs to get it as settled as possible and installed them. Good enough for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 When a car is lowered, the stock swaybar can be pre-loaded How does this happen when a car is lowered equally from side to side? In my experience on Mustangs and E30s, lowering the car simply rotates the ends of the chassis-mounted swaybar up, and it rotates them equally (you can do it by hand with the end links removed). If anything, you will be affecting the rate of the swaybar, as you are effectively shortening the lever arm on each end if they are not horizontal; the cure is to adjust the end link lengths. Now, if the ride height of the LF corner is left alone and the ride height of the RF corner is lowered, and the swaybar end links are left at their original lengths, then the swaybar will be preloaded. Or, if the LF and RF of the car are lowered equally, but the swaybar end links are of different lengths, then the swaybar will be preloaded as well. Or, am I working on freakishly weird cars that have strange and unique swaybar properties? Mark My sense is that it would vary from car to car and be a function of geometry and attachment points. Some bars mount to struts, some to control arms and who knows where else. It also seems to me that if the swaybar does rotate that it would move in an arc and create mis-alignment with a stock-type end link. Also, corner-weighted cars don't always have the exact same height side to side. I always disconnect my bars and reset after corner-weighting. If the geometry works out for all cars and preloading isn't an issue then we can end the discussion of stock end links...which is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 That sucks the scales at VIR are pretty inconsistent. Wish they would've used the long acre ones, i was showing 15 lbs or so low compared to the scales we have at the shop when i weighed after the warmup Saturday. Last year i remember them being as much as 80lbs off one event, July if i remember correctly. the scales at VIR get checked every event with known weights. I am not saying there is no chance for them to be wrong, but they do get checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 My sense is that it would vary from car to car and be a function of geometry and attachment points. Some bars mount to struts, some to control arms and who knows where else. It also seems to me that if the swaybar does rotate that it would move in an arc and create mis-alignment with a stock-type end link. Also, corner-weighted cars don't always have the exact same height side to side. I always disconnect my bars and reset after corner-weighting. If the geometry works out for all cars and preloading isn't an issue then we can end the discussion of stock end links...which is nice. My point was that simply lowering a car does not preload the swaybar (if it is done equally from side to side, as is typically done), contrary to the general statement that was posted above. Yes, adjusting the corner weights of the car by changing spring perch levels, etc. will preload the swaybar, but now you are talking about an unequal amounts of lowering/raising from side to side. Yes, the swaybar will move in an arc and cause a misalignment, but that misalignment is measured in small fractions of an inch (unless you are really rotating the swaybar up or down by 30* or something excessive) and it is why end links have a range of motion. Cars with ball joints on their end links should not notice much with a very slight, fractional misalignment, as the pivot on each end allows the end links to act like connecting rods. Cars with rigid bushings on each end (Fox and SN95 Mustangs; I think I posted a photo earlier) will induce some bind with the misalignment, but no more serious bind than during the ordinary range of suspension motion. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 24, 2011 National Staff Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sway bar connections and end links should always be tightened with the entire weight of the car on the tires---if not there will be pre-load and it could destroy (especially) OEM bushings. Two points for sway bars and end-links is generally a good deal and most drivers take these points. And, Scott is correct that this thread can go to 30 pages and there is still not likely to be a change in this rule. BTW, I'm missing about 7 pages of redundancy on a little hardtop thread (I predicted 30 pages from the start)----Don't forget to drop your opinions there..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 put new stock sway bar end links on my car before this last VIR event, jacked the car up Saturday to find both rubber bushings completely separated from the end link and the sway bar was disconnected on both sides. so +1 for allowing aftermarket end links. That sucks. I've never run OEM end links on my Miata, but I do know that Energy Suspension has replacement polyurethane bushings for them. That would be 0 points since the amount of metal does not change, and I suspect they would be more robust than the OEM design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 BTW, I'm missing about 7 pages of redundancy on a little hardtop thread (I predicted 30 pages from the start)----Don't forget to drop your opinions there..... Doing my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 put new stock sway bar end links on my car before this last VIR event, jacked the car up Saturday to find both rubber bushings completely separated from the end link and the sway bar was disconnected on both sides. so +1 for allowing aftermarket end links. That sucks. I've never run OEM end links on my Miata, but I do know that Energy Suspension has replacement polyurethane bushings for them. That would be 0 points since the amount of metal does not change, and I suspect they would be more robust than the OEM design. Damn i forgot i still have those sitting in a box from when i did the bushing kit last year. I wonder if they'll be less prone to slide out of the endlink. Well at least half my work is done haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 24, 2011 National Staff Share Posted February 24, 2011 Vinny, you might have to jack the car up and then lower it onto some wood (or ramps or use an alignment rack) to allow you to tighten everything up when the car is fully loaded. I've seen plenty of bushings destroyed when drivers forget to do this when working on their own cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Good call, i did toss them on when the car was in the air for a few other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 put new stock sway bar end links on my car before this last VIR event, jacked the car up Saturday to find both rubber bushings completely separated from the end link and the sway bar was disconnected on both sides. so +1 for allowing aftermarket end links. That sucks. I've never run OEM end links on my Miata, but I do know that Energy Suspension has replacement polyurethane bushings for them. That would be 0 points since the amount of metal does not change, and I suspect they would be more robust than the OEM design. does that mean Free / Suspension / #3) Non-metallic replacement suspension bushings covers swaybar bushings? the bits that attach the bar to the frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbow Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 does that mean Free / Suspension / #3) Non-metallic replacement suspension bushingscovers swaybar bushings? the bits that attach the bar to the frame? Not an official answer, but my opinion from reading the rules and asking a ton of questions: Yes, poly bushings for the stock base OEM swaybar = 0 (zero) points (see rules for deffinition of stock base OEM) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted April 20, 2011 National Staff Share Posted April 20, 2011 Here was the answer I sent him when he e-mailed the question: I don't see any problem using replacement sway bar bushings for no-points as long as they are not metallic, the OEM end-links are used, and the bushings are essentially the same size and shape of the OEM bushings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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