passenger seat and harness

[iroc-z]

I being reading rules 11.4.8 and 11.4.12 and I'm confused. My case is I have a bolt on roll bar in my 89 camaro, a driver race seat with FIA rating and a 5 point harness, now for the HPDE instructor, Do I have to have a race seat and a 5 pt harness for him to use or can I use the stock seat and belt for the passenger with my race seat and belt inplace. I dont have the money to buy a race seat and 5 pt for the passenger for maybe 5 or 6 more HPDE events and don't plan on having anymore passengers once I start racing .Would I have to remove my bolt on roll bar and my race seat/5 pt harness and reinstall my stock seat and belt to be able to do HPDE with an instructor?

[white_2kgt]

Yes. You have to provide the same level of equiptment for the instructor that you have. So in your case, since you don't want to buy another seat and harness you will have to reinstall the stock seat and belts. You can leave the roll bar though. You might want to check with your region, they _may_ allow you to leave in the seat and just use the stock belts. You'd have to check with them though.

 

--chad

[iroc-z]

Actually my roll bar is part of a 6 pt roll cage with just the back half left in I guess I would have to remove it since I dont have a back seat brace to put on my stock driver/passenger seat, am I correct on that?

[white_2kgt]

Actually my roll bar is part of a 6 pt roll cage with just the back half left in I guess I would have to remove it since I dont have a back seat brace to put on my stock driver/passenger seat, am I correct on that?

 

I ran an autopower 4pt for 2 HPDE's w/ the stock seats. Nobody ever said it was a problem.

 

--chad

[jp99gt]

Chad,

 

The new CCR doesn't allow that anymore. If you have a roll bar/cage, your seats must be FIA approved or you must run a seat back brace. This is true if you run racing, HPDE or Time Trials.

 

15.6.22 Seat Back Support

A seatback support must be made to hold the seat from going back in the event of a

crash. A plate should be used to distribute the load. No bolts, corners, or sharp objects

should be placed is such a manner that could lead to a possible puncture of the driver in

a high impact crash. Proper design and installation is crucial to safety and it is

recommend that the driver employ the services of a professional race car builder for this,

as well as all other vehicle safety items. An exception may be made for those seats

homologated to, and mounted in accordance, with FIA 8855-1999 standards. Those

seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to the entire FIA 8855-

1999 set of regulations. This includes a mandatory seat replacement of any seat more

than five (5) years old.

[white_2kgt]

Chad,

 

The new CCR doesn't allow that anymore. If you have a roll bar/cage, your seats must be FIA approved or you must run a seat back brace. This is true if you run racing, HPDE or Time Trials.

 

15.6.22 Seat Back Support

A seatback support must be made to hold the seat from going back in the event of a

crash. A plate should be used to distribute the load. No bolts, corners, or sharp objects

should be placed is such a manner that could lead to a possible puncture of the driver in

a high impact crash. Proper design and installation is crucial to safety and it is

recommend that the driver employ the services of a professional race car builder for this,

as well as all other vehicle safety items. An exception may be made for those seats

homologated to, and mounted in accordance, with FIA 8855-1999 standards. Those

seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to the entire FIA 8855-

1999 set of regulations. This includes a mandatory seat replacement of any seat more

than five (5) years old.

 

Well, good thing I put in a set of Sparco EVO 2's over the winter then Won't need a Seat back Brace until 2009. Do I have to bolt the seat back brace to the actual seat? In the event I get one prior to 2009.

 

--chad

[jp99gt]

I don't think seat back braces bolt to seats (I've not seen any that do) - they locate behind the seat back structure to keep the seat from going backwards, but don't have any function to keep the seat from going forwards.

[MWieber]

Both Autopower and I/O Port seat back braces are bolted to the seat back with two round head allen style bolts comming through from the drivers side of the seat. There are other designs that do not require the seat to be bolted to the brace. As suggested above, carefull reading of your rule book applies.

In general NASA would like our instructors to be as well protected as our students. Different regions may handle this differently depending on the speed potential of the cars and how advanced a group is running.

Although they can be a 'pain' these rules are in place for your protection, and the protection of our sport. Major injuries and deaths can make us all look bad. They also drive up the costs in dollars as well as time convincing our wives to let us play:)

Mark

[white_2kgt]

Both Autopower and I/O Port seat back braces are bolted to the seat back with two round head allen style bolts comming through from the drivers side of the seat.

 

I have the sparco EVO 2's and they flex a little more than I'd like. Do you see anything wrong w/ getting two (for each side) of those seat back braces and drilling holes in my seats to bolt them to? I just don't know how much I like the idea of drilling a hole (or two or four) in my seats.

 

--chad

[jp99gt]

I have the sparco EVO 2's and they flex a little more than I'd like. Do you see anything wrong w/ getting two (for each side) of those seat back braces and drilling holes in my seats to bolt them to? I just don't know how much I like the idea of drilling a hole (or two or four) in my seats.

 

--chad

 

Chad, that would be fine. You don't have to bolt it if you don't wish. The seat brace is meant primarily to keep you from going underneath the roll bar in a rear collision, should the seat break.

 

Don't forget that energy absorption is key in keeping your body intact in a collision. Seats that flex some w/o breaking, such as the Recaro Pole Position, help keep you from suddenly decelerating in a crash. Of course if you move too much that's a problem as well.

 

But rigid doesn't always equal better. The serious incidents early in the 1996 IRL season showed the cars were too stiff when struck in the rear - the driver had to absorb too much energy. You have to look at the car as a system.

[MWieber]

Chad:)

 

SCCA 2004 General Competition Rules and Specifications, States (on page GCR-154) "In order to provide a secure seat back support a section of tubing equal to the roll bar shall be installed horizontally from the main hoop upright to the diagonal brace. This tube shall be no higher than shoulder height. The driver's seat shall be firmly mounted to the structure of the car. In cars where the seat is upright, the back of the seat shall be FIRMLY ATTACHED to the main roll hoop, or it's cross bracing"

 

Not all sanctioning bodies are exactly the same but I would suggest that it is a good idea to have the seat fastened to the car at the base and at the back. On a fiberglass seat the bigger the area your backing plate covers the better.

 

The last post makes a very good point about considering your "safety system" as a unit, not as individual components. The conserns here are what absorbs the energey during a bad impact, and weather the seat can move around too much allowing the belts to loosen.

[leif]

does this mean my rollbar is illegal? here's pix:

 

http://www.tcdesignfab.com/Evorollbar.htm

 

what do i have to do so i can drive my car on the track? new seat?

[JoeLee]

Leif - with only looking at the pictures of your rollbar I would say that you won;t be allowed to drive with stock, unbraced seats. The danger will be if either seat folds back in an impact, you could easily break your neck against the bar(s).

 

Your choices:

1. Remove the bar.

2. Attach braces to the harness bar that will prevent the seats from folding back. (May use stock or non-FIA race seats)

3. Put in FIA seats - no braces needed.

 

The upside is that you can safely run real harnesses now!

 

ASIDE TO ALL: Show me in the NASA rules where it says passengers/instructors must have the same setup as the driver.

[leif]

Your choices:

1. Remove the bar.

2. Attach braces to the harness bar that will prevent the seats from folding back. (May use stock or non-FIA race seats)

3. Put in FIA seats - no braces needed.

 

 

how would a seat back brace bolt up to a stock seat without heavy fabrication? a stock seat has no real frame like an FIA seat so id be drilling into the plastic which is hardly useful or safe. if there's a way please let me know but i dont really think its doable.

[JoeLee]

It doesn't have to ATTACH to the seat - just sit up against the seat back to keep it from folding backwards under the rollbar in a crash.

 

The issue would be adding plate metal to a brace (http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SBB15&Category_Code=MDI) so that it touches the solid edges of the seat and not just fabric/padding. That shouldn't be too difficult!

[leif]

It doesn't have to ATTACH to the seat - just sit up against the seat back to keep it from folding backwards under the rollbar in a crash.

 

The issue would be adding plate metal to a brace (http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SBB15&Category_Code=MDI) so that it touches the solid edges of the seat and not just fabric/padding. That shouldn't be too difficult!

 

really?! i just spend a good hour with mike at io port swearing over this rule as we thought id have to chop my seat in half just to get the damn thing on it. however now i cant find the rule in the guidebook where it says it has to be sercurely attached.

 

are you 100% certain i only need to prop the brace against the back of the seat and not acutally connect the seat to it?

[JoeLee]

Directly from our CCR:

 

HPDE Prep Rule: ... All cars with roll bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22.

 

(The referenced rule in its entirety) 15.6.22 Seat Back Support

A seatback support must be made to hold the seat from going back in the event of a crash. A plate should be used to distribute the load. No bolts, corners, or sharp objects should be placed is such a manner that could lead to a possible puncture of the driver in a high impact crash. Proper design and installation is crucial to safety and it is recommend that the driver employ the services of a professional race car builder for this,

as well as all other vehicle safety items. An exception may be made for those seats homologated to, and mounted in accordance, with FIA 8855-1999 standards. Those seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to the entire FIA 8855-1999 set of regulations. This includes a mandatory seat replacement of any seat more than five (5) years old. Please reference the FIA regulations. http://www.fia.com/

 

NOWHERE does it say it has to be attached - just that it has to prevent it from going into the bar.

[leif]

hmm well thats a relief. thanks a lot!

[white_2kgt]

ASIDE TO ALL: Show me in the NASA rules where it says passengers/instructors must have the same setup as the driver.

 

NASA CCR (http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf) 11.4.8

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same requirements as the

driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger.

 

Any more homework I can do for you?

 

--chad

[JoeLee]

Try again Chad. That only means that if the passenger restraints are not OEM they ALSO must meet specs of that rule. Nowhere does it say that Passenger/driver must share identical equipment.

[jp99gt]

ASIDE TO ALL: Show me in the NASA rules where it says passengers/instructors must have the same setup as the driver.

 

Joe, this paragraph of the CCR makes it look like that is the intent. If it's not, you may need to clarify.

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger.

 

Most other groups say both restraints must be identical, and the CCR looks like it says the same, though you could interpret another way (two different levels, but both must meet CCR rules).

[leif]

joe... i was talking via email to ken from ioport and he says that while the brace doesnt have to be attached to the seat, it has to be used in a "safe manner" and neither the ioport nor the autopower can be used in this safe manner unless it is attached to the seat and that basically id have to make a custon one... so im back to square one. any ideas?

[MWieber]

The I/O Port, and Autopower seat back braces are designed to be bolted to the back of a racing style seat. Just putting the brace in and jamming it up against the seat, may be compliant with the new rule but can create a couple of dangerous situations. If the seat back support somehow rotated down (or up) during a crash the seat plate could tilt and become an edge allowing a lot of force to transfer to a small area. Also, in the event of a roll or bad side impact, the seat could move sideways out from in front of the brace creating a blunt harpoon that could be very bad for the driver.

You could cut up your expensive seats and fabricate a support for the SBB that was welded to the actual seat frame, or you could just get a racing seat. If you were to fabricate a MUCH larger seat plate and pad it somehow to avoid the "harpoon" or "knife edge" scenario's (and get it OK'd by NASA) I would be very interested in your sollution. As it stands I/O Port and Autopower REQUIRE their seat back braces be bolted to the seat in order to insure that they are safe and effective.

Mark Wieber

[white_2kgt]

The I/O Port, and Autopower seat back braces are designed to be bolted to the back of a racing style seat. Just putting the brace in and jamming it up against the seat, may be compliant with the new rule but can create a couple of dangerous situations. If the seat back support somehow rotated down (or up) during a crash the seat plate could tilt and become an edge allowing a lot of force to transfer to a small area. Also, in the event of a roll or bad side impact, the seat could move sideways out from in front of the brace creating a blunt harpoon that could be very bad for the driver.

You could cut up your expensive seats and fabricate a support for the SBB that was welded to the actual seat frame, or you could just get a racing seat. If you were to fabricate a MUCH larger seat plate and pad it somehow to avoid the "harpoon" or "knife edge" scenario's (and get it OK'd by NASA) I would be very interested in your sollution. As it stands I/O Port and Autopower REQUIRE their seat back braces be bolted to the seat in order to insure that they are safe and effective.

Mark Wieber

 

What happens when the seat isn't bolted to the roll bar and you bolt the brace to the seat back then something happens and the roll bar shifts? It _could_ rip the back of the seat off, no? I have Sparco Evo's and they are fiberglass. In this scenario I'd full well expect my seat back to get ripped off.

 

Joe, I really think that is the _intent_ of that rule. If it is not, then so be it. Almost feels like we are going over last years AI rules and the wiltone car...

 

--chad

[LMan]

I would interpret that as 'two different restraints, both meeting the rules' as OK. The driver can have a 4-point harness, and the passenger a stock-type 3-point belt, as long as both meet the CCR requirements. If it doesnt say it has to be the same, it doesnt.