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Winefool

How important is the 'G'?

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Winefool

Just curious what the different perspectives out there are on this. How important is the 'German' in German Touring Series? My understanding from the NASA marketing material is that GTS is supposed to be the gentlemen racer series with higher dollar cars and lower tolerance for contact (13/13 rule, etc.). Obviously there are plenty of high dollar cars in other series as well, but the point remains, this is where the BMWs, Porsches, and Audis race.

 

So a good friend of mine has a Maserati Trofeo race car that he has been campaigning in SCCA. I've been working hard to try to convince him of the virtues of NASA and the place he would be most interested in racing is of course GTS. His car is not perfectly optimized, but fits pretty nicely into GTS4. He ran one weekend with Midwest at Autobahn last summer and they stuck him in GTSU, claiming that there was a heated season championship battle brewing in GTS4 and they didn't want to toss him into that. Fair enough. Now for this upcoming season he tried to get the car classed appropriately and the answer was ST2. The car is not German so you're not welcome in GTS. I'm sure ST2 has plenty of nice people and can be fun and competitive, but what he's interested in is racing Porsches and BMWs, just like all of us!

 

So when I think about 'German Touring Series' I wonder what exactly makes a car relevant for us? Obviously the big three were the original intent, and VW qualifies too I suppose. But what about Mini? Sure they're owned by BMW, but are they really any more 'German' than a Lotus? So Mini is OK, but no Lotus... To me those are both British sports cars. How about Lamborgini? They are owned by VW Group, so they qualify? But not Maserati or Ferrari? At the end of the day, it seems pretty artibrary to me. Personally, if someone wants to invest in a Lotus, Lamborgini, Maserati, or Ferrari race car and run it in NASA, I'd like to have them swelling the ranks of GTS!

 

But then again, I can see the other side of the argument as well - you have to draw the line somewhere. So what do you guys think:

 

'Keep it pure, GTS means German'

 

Or

 

'I'm not intimidated by the other Europeans, bring 'em on!'

 

CRH

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cosm3os

This comes up every winter and every winter it gets shot down. He can run one of the ST/SU classes. We had a guy in a Mas running last year at ACC.

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juliancates
We had a guy in a Mas running last year at ACC.

 

Same guy, yeah?

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pmilli319

I personally think that they are hurting series growth by keeping it GTS. I would love it if they opened it up to all European cars. There are a ton of 'Production' cars racing in SCCA that could then run in NASA if they opened it up to all Euro cars. That would really boost the GTS1 and GTS2 entry list. You could also have Lotus's (Loti?) racing. That would be cool because they would be ultra lightweight with lower hp, but probably race in GTS3 or GTS4 with higher hp cars. It would be interesting to see how that would play out. Fiat is coming back to the USA and I can assure you that they are coming out with some cars that would perfectly fit in the lower GTS ranks.

 

The Mini is an interesting loop hole. The new one is clearly German, but the old one is clearly British. I honestly haven't even considered how the rules are written for that case.

 

What is everyone afraid of by letting more cars into the series? Right now, we are lucky to have 5 cars per class in the midwest/greatlakes. It's not to difficult a lot of weekends to get a trophy. Is that what everyone is afraid of...not getting the trophy. I would love it if we were racing against 20 cars per class. The podium finish would feel a lot better if you got it racing against 20 cars instead of 5!

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cstreit911
My understanding from the NASA marketing material is that GTS is supposed to be the gentlemen racer series with higher dollar cars and lower tolerance for contact (13/13 rule, etc.).

 

That's part of it, but the German marque's and the simple rule set are the heart and soul. It is not the money or the 13/13 those kinds of thing

 

There is always talk about making it European. ...but here's the rub. Damn near every car ever made has been made in Europe at some point.... Fords, Chevy's, you name it. So if it's ETS, we allow all cars, and then what distinguishes ETS from ST/SU?

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cstreit911
Just curious what the different perspectives out there are on this. How important is the 'German' in German Touring Series? My understanding from the NASA marketing material is that GTS is supposed to be the gentlemen racer series with higher dollar cars and lower tolerance for contact (13/13 rule, etc.). Obviously there are plenty of high dollar cars in other series as well, but the point remains, this is where the BMWs, Porsches, and Audis race.

 

Chris, don't take my directness here as insults, just want to be clear:

 

GERMAN Touring Series. That's the important part along with the simple ruleset.

 

So a good friend of mine has a Maserati Trofeo race car that he has been campaigning in SCCA. I've been working hard to try to convince him of the virtues of NASA and the place he would be most interested in racing is of course GTS. His car is not perfectly optimized, but fits pretty nicely into GTS4. He ran one weekend with Midwest at Autobahn last summer and they stuck him in GTSU, claiming that there was a heated season championship battle brewing in GTS4 and they didn't want to toss him into that. Fair enough. Now for this upcoming season he tried to get the car classed appropriately and the answer was ST2. The car is not German so you're not welcome in GTS. I'm sure ST2 has plenty of nice people and can be fun and competitive, but what he's interested in is racing Porsches and BMWs, just like all of us!

 

He didn't have a dyno form and certification handed to the series director. How could we send him into GTS4? Are you willing to risk all your points and hard work on someones say-so? If he's interested in racing Porsche's and BMW's then he should buy one and we'd LOVE to have him race in GTS. Isn't that car maintained by Fall-Line? I'm sure they could find him a great competitive car

 

So when I think about 'German Touring Series' I wonder what exactly makes a car relevant for us? Obviously the big three were the original intent, and VW qualifies too I suppose. But what about Mini? Sure they're owned by BMW, but are they really any more 'German' than a Lotus? So Mini is OK, but no Lotus... To me those are both British sports cars. How about Lamborgini? They are owned by VW Group, so they qualify? But not Maserati or Ferrari? At the end of the day, it seems pretty artibrary to me. Personally, if someone wants to invest in a Lotus, Lamborgini, Maserati, or Ferrari race car and run it in NASA, I'd like to have them swelling the ranks of GTS!

 

 

German = German owned and produced cars.

Touring = Must be product based.

Series = (well it's a series!)

 

Ownership does not define manufacture. Yes the mini is an anomoly and IMO should not have been allowed. I voted against it.

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snk

If I could afford to pull up to a race in my street Maserati, then jump into a Maserati race car that's fully maintained and trailered to the track by Fall Line, then I could probably afford to have a second race car that abides by the rules. (Yes, I'm jealous and envious, but not hatin'!)

 

IMO, there are too many classes in NASA to ever get 20+ car counts in a single class. In fact, it seems that Spec Miata is the only class that can realistically get there.

 

- 944 Spec

- 986 Boxster Spec

- American Iron

- Camaro/Mustang Challenge

- Factory Five Challenge

- German Touring Series

- Honda Challenge

- Performance Touring

- Spec E30

- Spec Miata

- Super Touring

- Super Unlimited

- Spec3

 

If all of the 944 Spec racers converted to GTS1, the GTS1 class in the Midwest would be sizeable.

 

If all of the Spec E30 racers converted to GTS1, then there would be even bigger GTS1 car counts. (Not in the Midwest/Great Lakes, per se, but there are very large car counts in other regions.)

 

If all of the Spec3 racers converted to GTS2, then there would be a nice car count there as well. (Once again this is non-Midwest/Great Lakes but Mid-Atlantic has a growing Spec3 population.)

 

As far as all of the cars racing in Prod in SCCA go, pretty much all of them are National class racers and their goal is to win the triple crown and place on the podium in Nationals. Sure, you will get the occasional converts but I don't think that changing GTS into something that it was never intended to be is going to suddenly make it more attractive to SCCA club racers.

 

Just my 20 cents.

 

Nobu

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RSCoupe

Every year this comes up, and once again I say NO. The whole reason I am running in GTS, is because it is GTS: GERMAN Touring Series.

And I agree with Chris; the new Mini should not have been allowed to run in GTS.

 

But then, I'm a German snob, and proud of it.

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scottbm3

I'm not gonna get into this discussion again. I'll just say I agree with Mark and Chris S.(another shocker ) and say once again its the German Touring Series, so yes German marques only !! NASA has a place/class for all cars to race, so there's no reason for non German marques to race in GTS.

 

 

-Scott B.

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mbuskuhl

 

IMO, there are too many classes in NASA

 

More like WAY TOO MANY classes. If it's not a spec class, it should not be restricted to a certain manufacturer or place of origin. There is simply not enough cars to fill all these classes and that's not going to change.

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944-Spec#94
...

 

If all of the 944 Spec racers converted to GTS1, the GTS1 class in the Midwest would be sizeable.

 

If all of the Spec E30 racers converted to GTS1, then there would be even bigger GTS1 car counts. (Not in the Midwest/Great Lakes, per se, but there are very large car counts in other regions.)

...

 

Nobu

 

944 spec was the second largest single class at Nationals in both 2009 and 2010. Second only to Spec Miata. A few guys choose to supersize in GTS1 for the fun of it.

 

944 spec drivers race in the class because it is a spec class. Some like Porsches and 944 spec is cheapest place to race a Porsche. Others want a rear drive sports car and are too large for a Miata.

 

Point is GTS is not like any spec class and is a poor subsititue for those wanting to race in spec class. GTS is fundamentaly different. That is just fine, just don't go thinking you can draw in the guys 944 spec or Spec E30 to GTS. It is not why they race.

 

Be happy that in NASA you can race any steet based car prepared to any level. NASA is unique in that you can take any car and prepare it in just about you see fit and still find a class to race it in. Some cars will give you multilple choices to race it in, but there is always at least once class for each prep level. Most of the time you can take any car and give a chance of running the pack by being smart about what mods you choose.

 

I know plenty of other organzations where one cannot race a certain car because it is not run the rules. GTS is only for German cars, but the selection of classes in NASA allows you to still race it.

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cstreit911
If it's not a spec class, it should not be restricted to a certain manufacturer or place of origin.

 

If they aren't setup and regulated to be equal, NASA should just lump them all together? You didn't vote Republican did you?

 

Not sure the GTS, AI, AIX, or HC guys are gonna like that.

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mbuskuhl
You didn't vote Republican did you?

 

Hard core conservative Republican/Libertarian and damn proud of it

 

Just throwing out my 2 cents on the classing is all. If it works for everyone great, wasn't working for me, so I went back to the other side for now.

 

Look at some of class car counts, is the system working?

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RSCoupe
...Look at some of class car counts, is the system working?

 

Yes, it is working. Class car counts have been increasing almost every year (economy permitting).

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cstreit911

Sure there are classes where very few cars show up. Every region has that.

 

...but that's really up to the series to manage expectations. There really aren't enough Ferrari's/Lotii/Masertati's asking to run to justify diluting the history and identity of the GTS series. In the Midwest, those requests would come to me and do date I've had requests for one Maserati, two Merkur's, and a Peugot. That's really it.

 

Part of the draw in GTS is the G. It's an identity. No one else really has that. It works.

 

Car counts are climbing. Four year ago "somone" had to register a phantom car at NASA Nationals just to meet the minimum for GTS4. At the Putnam Regional's this year we had 7-8 cars in GTS4 alone.

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scottbm3
Sure there are classes where very few cars show up. Every region has that.

 

...but that's really up to the series to manage expectations. There really aren't enough Ferrari's/Lotii/Masertati's asking to run to justify diluting the history and identity of the GTS series. In the Midwest, those requests would come to me and to date I've had requests for one Maserati, two Merkur's, and a Peugot. That's really it.

 

Part of the draw in GTS is the G. It's an identity. No one else really has that. It works.

 

Car counts are climbing. Four year ago "somone" had to register a phantom car at NASA Nationals just to meet the minimum for GTS4. At the Putnam Regional's this year we had 7-8 cars in GTS4 alone.

 

Agreed again, this is getting top be a habit . Since the Merkurs are allowed by the GTS rules there's only been the Maserati and that GUY with the Peugeot that's in a gazillion pieces.... Yeah, lets change the whole series for a couple cars.

 

How important is the C or the M in the CMC series ? or how important is the A in American Iron ? How important is the H to HC? I bet if you ask the guys that run in those series they will say real important !! GTS is a series not a class. There are classes within the series. From Audi,BMW,Porsche,Mercedes,VW there a bunch of choices for cars you can run in one of the 6 classes in GTS. Pick one, build it and come race with GTS. You'll be welcomed with open arms. Don't try and get a car that doesn't fit and ask to come play with us just because you picked the wrong car.

 

 

-Scott B.

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cstreit911
Agreed again, this is getting top be a habit .

 

People are starting to talk....

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Michael G.

Agreed with Scott and Chris,

 

Once you open the door to non-Gs in GTS, you might as well mix all in ST/PT and forget about the identity of the series.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Director.

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Lemming

Keep the "G"

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Fred Crawford
Keep the "G"

 

I aggree...

 

Without the "G"

It would only be a string

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kgibson79

How important is the 'G'?

 

The G is the whole point and identity of the series, the money is an undesirable side effect. Just because you paid alot of money for your car does not mean you should be entitled to race in a series you don't fit in. There are plenty of high dollar cars that race in plenty of other series.

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Paisan

This is relevant to my region. We had a guy running last year with a Volvo in GTS3. My personal feeling is that he should be running in ST as his car is as german as my Subaru. I have Bosch plugs in it, so does that mean I can run it in GTS as well?

 

I have no horse in this race but if the Series is called German Touring Series, and the rules state German Cars... Then um it's pretty obvious that it should be just German cars!

 

-mike

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Eric W.
Keep the "G"

 

I aggree...

 

Without the "G"

It would only be a string

 

Dammit Fred, now youre going to get those spammers from your region to post here...

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doclouns
This is relevant to my region. We had a guy running last year with a Volvo in GTS3. My personal feeling is that he should be running in ST as his car is as german as my Subaru. I have Bosch plugs in it, so does that mean I can run it in GTS as well?

 

I have no horse in this race but if the Series is called German Touring Series, and the rules state German Cars... Then um it's pretty obvious that it should be just German cars!

 

-mike

 

Soooo, being one of the "German" GTS3 cars that ran against said Volvo in the NE region....A turbo-charged front-wheel drive Volvo sedan, who in his first event has to dyno (no sheet), and magically while in dyno line a vaccum hose mysteriously pops off at the hands of the smurfs with the hood up, and then who only dyno's 190 hp.....gets DQ'd for running in GTS3 rather than GTS 1 or 2 or whatever...then goes on to win the GTS3 points for the region for the year.

Just sayin.....

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Eric W.
This is relevant to my region. We had a guy running last year with a Volvo in GTS3. My personal feeling is that he should be running in ST as his car is as german as my Subaru. I have Bosch plugs in it, so does that mean I can run it in GTS as well?

 

I have no horse in this race but if the Series is called German Touring Series, and the rules state German Cars... Then um it's pretty obvious that it should be just German cars!

 

-mike

 

Soooo, being one of the "German" GTS3 cars that ran against said Volvo in the NE region....A turbo-charged front-wheel drive Volvo sedan, who in his first event has to dyno (no sheet), and magically while in dyno line a vaccum hose mysteriously pops off at the hands of the smurfs with the hood up, and then who only dyno's 190 hp.....gets DQ'd for running in GTS3 rather than GTS 1 or 2 or whatever...then goes on to win the GTS3 points for the region for the year.

Just sayin.....

 

And the word is he was protesting people for stupid stuff... not helping his cause, just sayin

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