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How important is the 'G'?

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doclouns
This is relevant to my region. We had a guy running last year with a Volvo in GTS3. My personal feeling is that he should be running in ST as his car is as german as my Subaru. I have Bosch plugs in it, so does that mean I can run it in GTS as well?

 

I have no horse in this race but if the Series is called German Touring Series, and the rules state German Cars... Then um it's pretty obvious that it should be just German cars!

 

-mike

 

Soooo, being one of the "German" GTS3 cars that ran against said Volvo in the NE region....A turbo-charged front-wheel drive Volvo sedan, who in his first event has to dyno (no sheet), and magically while in dyno line a vaccum hose mysteriously pops off at the hands of the smurfs with the hood up, and then who only dyno's 190 hp.....gets DQ'd for running in GTS3 rather than GTS 1 or 2 or whatever...then goes on to win the GTS3 points for the region for the year.

Just sayin.....

 

And the word is he was protesting people for stupid stuff... not helping his cause, just sayin

 

 

Apparently, "someone" protested a missing car number or class in GTS3 at W-G last fall....which quite fortunately bumped someone up either to second or third IIRC

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RSCoupe
...and magically while in dyno line a vaccum hose mysteriously pops off at the hands of the smurfs with the hood up, and then who only dyno's 190 hp...

 

 

Why were there "smurfs" with the hood up while in the dyno line?!?

No touching the car until it's been dyno'd!!!

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doclouns

Pesky rules...

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scottbm3
This is relevant to my region. We had a guy running last year with a Volvo in GTS3. My personal feeling is that he should be running in ST as his car is as german as my Subaru. I have Bosch plugs in it, so does that mean I can run it in GTS as well?

 

I have no horse in this race but if the Series is called German Touring Series, and the rules state German Cars... Then um it's pretty obvious that it should be just German cars!

 

-mike

 

Soooo, being one of the "German" GTS3 cars that ran against said Volvo in the NE region....A turbo-charged front-wheel drive Volvo sedan, who in his first event has to dyno (no sheet), and magically while in dyno line a vaccum hose mysteriously pops off at the hands of the smurfs with the hood up, and then who only dyno's 190 hp.....gets DQ'd for running in GTS3 rather than GTS 1 or 2 or whatever...then goes on to win the GTS3 points for the region for the year.

Just sayin.....

 

Actually he should have never been allowed to run a timed session in any class but GTSU without a current dyno sheet. Well actually he should not have been allowed to run in GTS with or without a Dyno sheet..... I remember someone making a bunch of new friends at WG last season..........

 

-Scott B.

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Michael G.

Just to set the record straight -

1. Volvo run in GTS last year, because he obtained the official permission from the National Director. 2. He did have a valid Dyno sheet.

3. For opening the hood at NJMP - he was disqualified.

I don't think the new permission to run in 2011 was granted - at least there is no National Director for me to ask about.

Michael G.

NE GTS Director.

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scottbm3
Just to set the record straight -

1. Volvo run in GTS last year, because he obtained the official permission from the National Director. 2. He did have a valid Dyno sheet.

3. For opening the hood at NJMP - he was disqualified.

I don't think the new permission to run in 2011 was granted - at least there is no National Director for me to ask about.

Michael G.

NE GTS Director.

 

Michael,

 

I understand the permission thing, I just don't agree with it and don't think it belongs in the GTS rules !! As far as the other stuff I was not there and not affected by it, though once again I think whoever protested about the classing and numbers was a CS move. I keep looking for an announcement about a new National GTS Director......????

 

-Scott B.

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Michael G.

Scott,

I agree that G should be for German, and the protest on stickers was lame, but unfortunately both times it was out of my control. I am trying to enforce as much of a common sense with in the powers given. I just wanted to make sure the information here is correct.

Michael G.

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doclouns

Michael G.-

Thanks for doing what you do, thankless job. My point was not to bust on you, just the process that is clearly beyond your control on things like this.

Mark

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Winefool

Thanks to everyone who posted here, this is just the kind of perspective I was looking for. Couple of thoughts...

 

First, my apologies if this is indeed a topic that get rehashed annually. I did do a quick search before posting and didn't see anything, and after a much more exhaustive search, I found a single thread on the topic from about 3 years ago. If there are others that I'm missing, post them or PM me as I'd love to spin through them. It's actually not an easy to search topic.

 

Second, I probably didn't do a good enough job setting context for my question. The GTS ruleset is very clear and specific about German chassis and engine from the same manufacturer. Clearly a Masarati does not qualify under the rules and the decision in my example case was absolutely sound and correct under the rules. My apologies to Chris S. and any other competition director if that wasn't clear, my intent was not to question or attempt to reverse the decision.

 

I was really just curious about the degree of affinity that existed with German specifically versus a broader group of higher-end European sports cars. In online and offline feedback the consensus (nearly unanimous) is G is for German. That's great! I love BMWs & Audis and as Mark S. so eloquently put it, I am a German snob too!

 

On the perspective that my friend, or people in general, should just go out and buy a German car if they want to run GTS is also all well and good, but it misses a broader point. There are lots of people out there with race cars (some of them really nice) and the question for NASA in general and GTS in particular is whether we want to attract them to our classes and if so, how? I have a hunch that not many people would be willing to spend the money necessary to be competitive in an open class like GTS (or AI, or HC) if there wasn't some 'brand' attraction. I'm not sure I see an attractive place for the big Italians to run in NASA, and perhaps that's fine - there may not be that many of them out there anyway, especially in MW/GL. Personally, I'd love to race against them, but as I said I also totally get the G.

 

An interesting side note... while the consensus here was very clear, it wasn't always so much the case. I suppose it's a testament to the growing strength of the series that no one expresses the kinds of concerns and doubts that were pretty prevelant three short years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20587

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Villaconn

Greetings:

 

It seems that a lot of folks had or have a "beef" with the Volvo running in GTS. Well it did and it was a fun season. We made some friends and some enemies in the process but fact of the matter is that not everybody has to like everybody. I have read some of the statements made regarding the eligibility of the car in GTS and I must say that for the uninformed this car is more German than a Merkur and a Mini put together (regardless of what plugs you decide to put in your car). However, none of that matters. We were allowed to run the Volvo in GTS and that was that. It was only on a regional level, could not participate in any other region nor could we qualify for the National Championship. We had fun and did well due to preparation and a tightly run proverbial ship. If anybody need clarification, have questions, concerns or generally want to bicker about stuff, look me up at the track and ask me in person. I will be glad to answer any and all of them. If we would have been allowed to run in GTS this season, we would be doing so. I don't think 80% of the GTS competitors in the Northeast Region would mind having the Volvo in GTS but if the Regional Director does not want the car in GTS, we're not pushing the issue.

 

Maybe we'll run it in BMWCCA. I am sure 85% of the field will be opposed to it but at least they will allow it to run.

 

Cheers,

Ricky

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RSCoupe

Ricky,

 

You make it sound like it was personal. It's not. I'm sure you made friends, GTS is a great bunch of people, and we make friends across all series. This is strictly an issue of car marque, and what the series was created for. Yes you were allowed to run in Northeast, which is great for you, I probably would have tried too, and any regional director can make decisions for their region, hopefully with input from their drivers.

 

Good luck with whatever you end up doing. The important thing is, you are racing.

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Michael G.

Ricky,

 

Mark is right on the money - it was never personal here - the reality of the situation is that back at the end of '09 when permission was granted, the vast majority of GTS drivers in the NE were fine with you joining the group, but, I guess number of infractions, collisions (personal and car to car) and arguments through the season changed the mood and opinion of the group 180 degrees. The last drop was the protest at the Glen over another competitor stickers... Again, nothing personal here. The main requirement from Ian granting you the permission originally, was for you not to become a center of the conflict, and unfortunately it turned to be exactly opposite - most of our issues and discussions happened to involve your team in one way or another.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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Eric W.
Ricky,

 

Again, nothing personal here. The main requirement from Ian granting you the permission originally, was for you not to become a center of the conflict, and unfortunately it turned to be exactly opposite - most of our issues and discussions happened to involve your team in one way or another.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

 

Well said. I hate being in the middle of arguments, but if I had finished that race and was protested for numbers/stickers, I would have been VERY unhappy and would have made that been known. I had already voiced my concerns in a separate thread, as well as with NE regional directors and the GTS director. That protest would have been appealed and I would have made a strong case of Unsportsmanlike Conduct. I wanted Joe Elwell to do it since he did in fact get protested, but he just wanted to leave.

 

You have to see that stuff like this brings lots of attention onto yourself and HURTS GTS as a whole, not help it grow.

 

23.1.2 Unsportsmanlike Conduct

Any unsportsmanlike conduct, on any scale, is not welcome at NASA events. Acts of

unsportsmanlike conduct have many forms such as arguing, yelling, intimidation,

aggressive physical contact, and losing without grace. Other forms are willfully using

non-performance technicalities to hurt another competitor‟s point standings to the benefit

of one‟s own, “sandbagging,” and failing to report a mistake in scoring that benefits

themselves. No form of unsportsmanlike conduct will be tolerated at any NASA event.

Competitors that show poor sportsmanship due to a mistake in judgment will be

educated, and punished if necessary. However, competitors that commit repeated acts

of unsportsmanlike conduct cannot be educated; therefore expulsion is most likely the

only remedy

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jcrist

Kudos to NASA NE for doing what is considered "the right thing" by the majority. No one is arguing the infractions including hp tampering and non-performance related protests for points gain, they were clear and present. This sends a clear message and is a a relative Beacon to other regions of proper decision making by a race sanctioning body. Some wouldn't have had the guts.

 

BRAVO!!!!!!!!

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JoshV70
Ricky,

 

Mark is right on the money - it was never personal here - the reality of the situation is that back at the end of '09 when permission was granted, the vast majority of GTS drivers in the NE were fine with you joining the group, but, I guess number of infractions, collisions (personal and car to car) and arguments through the season changed the mood and opinion of the group 180 degrees. The last drop was the protest at the Glen over another competitor stickers... Again, nothing personal here. The main requirement from Ian granting you the permission originally, was for you not to become a center of the conflict, and unfortunately it turned to be exactly opposite - most of our issues and discussions happened to involve your team in one way or another.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

 

Michael,

 

When we entered the season, we had specific goals in mind, which we were able to accomplish, and along the way, made some friends. After being treated like criminals after nearly every race by certain competitors as well as the Race Director (I'm sure you remember the race at Lime Rock) for no proven reason whatsoever, there is no reason why I would want to return to GTS for 2011.

 

To clarify, throughout the season we were assessed with 1 disqualification for car-to-car contact, and a penalty for the conflict at the beginning of the season. I along with the team were never confrontational or argumentative with competitors or officials.

 

The protest at Watkins Glen was per recommendation of the Race Director.

 

Lastly, I greatly appreciate the hard work that Joe Casella, his family and organization did and continue to do.

 

Josh

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Michael G.

Josh,

 

No one to my knowledge treated you as a criminal. But the reality is that aside of the few infractions you were penalized for, there were others, when no official action was taken, but enough to plant seeds of mistrust (remember qualifying on slicks and racing on DOT's on the very first race?). The most common complaint from your fellow competitors was your tendency to drive much faster on the second day of the no Dyno at the track race weekends. Whether they're right or not - not for me to decide, especially since we could never enforce the compliance of the HP without Dyno at the track last year. This year we are beginning to utilize Traqmates, and already found few cars illegal, and I am sure will find more.

Regarding the protest at the Glen - no matter who gave you an advice - it was your call (or your crew chief's?) to go ahead with it or not, and you made a call according to your beliefs.

 

And yes, you personally were never confrontational, but you had someone else to do it for you.

 

Michael G. (NE GTS Dir.)

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jcrist
The protest at Watkins Glen was per recommendation of the Race Director.

 

That's what you are going with? The race director came up to you and said, "Hey, you lost out on a points finish. That guy in 2nd was missing a few decals. You should protest him"???

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scottbm3
The protest at Watkins Glen was per recommendation of the Race Director.

 

That's what you are going with? The race director came up to you and said, "Hey, you lost out on a points finish. That guy in 2nd was missing a few decals. You should protest him"???

 

I'm with Jason on this one too.... Really, that's a pretty lame reason !! I mean those missing numbers on the hood were probably good for .5 seconds a lap....... Hard to beleive a race director would do that unless you were already complaining about it to begin with. I know out GL director wouldn't. I just saw the results from last season in the NE region for GTS, good thing you ran in that region, cause 2 wins in 10 races wouldn't get you close to winning the GL region championship in GTS3 !!

 

-Scott B.

Edited by Guest

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wallyman424

Can I get a 1 race exemption to race in gts4???

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SAM THE CAN MAN

I always thought the GTS standed for grand touring sport. Like in Imsa GT.

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Paisan

In the Northeast I actually re-wrote the rules for points finishes this year so that one needs to participate in 50% of the races in order to even be considered for points. All others are considered "guests" and can't gain points. This should make things a bit less of a tit-for-tat for the guys who are going for points.

 

-mike

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scottbm3
In the Northeast I actually re-wrote the rules for points finishes this year so that one needs to participate in 50% of the races in order to even be considered for points. All others are considered "guests" and can't gain points. This should make things a bit less of a tit-for-tat for the guys who are going for points.

 

-mike

Mike,

 

So if "guests" come in 1,2,3 does the 4th place NE racer that participates in more than 50% of the races get 4th. place points or 1st. place points ? Just wondering ?

 

 

-Scott B.

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Paisan
In the Northeast I actually re-wrote the rules for points finishes this year so that one needs to participate in 50% of the races in order to even be considered for points. All others are considered "guests" and can't gain points. This should make things a bit less of a tit-for-tat for the guys who are going for points.

 

-mike

Mike,

 

So if "guests" come in 1,2,3 does the 4th place NE racer that participates in more than 50% of the races get 4th. place points or 1st. place points ? Just wondering ?

 

 

-Scott B.

 

Good question, luckily our next event is in July so I can contemplate it. I have to see which is easier to keep track of. But I think that "fun-run" participants don't count and the points start to be doled out at the first participant. So if that is the route we go with, then the 4th place guy would get 100 points.

 

-mike

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wlfpkrcn1

How does that work for the first few races of the year? How do you know who is a 50% entrant or not? Release points after 50% of the races are run so you know who is eligible or take points away from early racers if they don't make the required amount of races? Just curious.

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Eric W.
How does that work for the first few races of the year? How do you know who is a 50% entrant or not? Release points after 50% of the races are run so you know who is eligible or take points away from early racers if they don't make the required amount of races? Just curious.

 

Maybe just have a different set of "overall" results for just NASA-NE members. That should be easy since your home region is listed when you register. No need to fuss w/ 50% participation, etc. That or just drive faster and beat the guests.

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