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Joshua

New Miata Air Dam = 3pts?

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Cobra4B
Then you've missed the point, Brian. "Push the rules"? What the heck is that? How many people have ever said to you that they started racing so that they could "push the rules". I haven't heard that one in 15 years of motorsports.... and I've talked to a LOT of people. The point of racing is to have fun. The rules are simply there so that everyone can compete fairly. I know people that have gone into other series because they think that the PT rules are a moving target...and they are right. One of the ways people have fun is maintaining competitiveness without have to go through new development every year.

 

Oh, and another thing the rules specifically state that "If the don't say that you can then you can't". You've got it backwards.

 

Anyway, sorry for feeding the troll.

Sorry, but I approach this "hobby" like a sport. I grew up playing everything.... golf, tennis, lacrosse, football, ice hockey, baseball, and a little bit of basketball... not to mention shooting sports and skiing. Play to win or go home. "The point of racing is to have fun." No... I started out in HPDE to simply have fun. I run TimeTrials to bring the thrill of competition into the mix. My goal is to beat my oponent whether it be through more skill, better track knowledge, or better car prep, or a combination of all of them. Fun comes from winning and figuring out how to out-do your opponent.

 

Case in point... Justin Matthews whooped up on all of us in TTA on little tiny 245 R6s and more aero and other tricks.... so it gave me the motivation I needed to try a new setup with 255s and freeing up points to run a rear spoiler. AFAIK I'm one of the first people to actually run a 255 on a TTA Corvette.... Mark Nunnally has talked about it a bunch and provided me lots of good insight that convinced me to take the plunge and spend the money on tires that may be a step backwards.

 

My point is that it's fun to push the rules and push the setup and try new configurations... it's part of the sport. The general tone of your posts is that you've got yoru class figured out so your comfortable and don't have to do any more innovation to keep up. Someone comes up with something new and innovative and you try to explain why it's bad for the sport/class whatever. Keeping the rules consistent is key to growing any race class, but racers can and will push the rules.... if the rules allow it someone will do it.... if it's a grey area someone will do it... if it's eventually deemed unfair or outside of the intent of the rules/class then those that control that will come in and modify the rules... that's how this stuff evolves and I think it's a good thing.

 

At VIR 2:10 used to be fast for a T1 car... now you've got T1 cars in the 2:02s and ST2 cars in the 1:59s.... Yes it takes a LS3 with a dry-sump to compete in T1 and yes it takes a full-aero car to compete in ST2 now... both which cost significant money, but IMO it's good for the hobby.... it's fun seeing people try new things and new tricks to beat up on the competition.

 

Just my $0.02 YMMV

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awdracer

Brian, I'm totally cool with everything that you just said and I agree with it. Your second post said a completely different thing than your first post did.

 

As for my situation, you don't really understand it. The Sentra got dinged in the rules for 3 straight years and it cost me a lot of time, effort and money to adjust.

 

When NASA was using the points system my car was fully built and I was making small improvements. Now I need to put $5000 into my motor to get the same torque as the 2.4 Hondas. Now someone is trying to pass a fascia mod off as an air dam to reclaim points. It's got to stop. Innovation is great but the rules have to be rules and they have to be stable.

 

I used to laugh at the SCCA for keeping it's rules set the same for so many years. The membership used to complain to high heaven about having to keep mundane items like washer bottles and stock batteries. Now... not so much.

 

Yes this is a TT forum but a RACE (and we have to have this discussion here b/c the rules mirror each other) should be decided by the DRIVER.

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wlfpkrcn1

In theory- Anything you hang off the front weather it is vertical or sloped is going to increase downforce. The absence of air flow under the car creates a "vacuum" (actually it is just lower air pressure). If the pressure on top remains the same and the pressure underneath drops, you have downforce. Personally I think this spoiler/air dam/ fascia should be +3. It is not radical enough to take an extra 2 for increased downforce.

 

 

That's not what the rules say.

 

4) Add or modify canards/winglets (includes portions of an added/modified/replaced fascia
that provide a downward force other than that listed in G.2) above) +2

 

If the fascia modification provides downforce then it's +2. That's how I see it. Am I reading it wrong?

 

All I'm saying is that an air dam should be an air dam.....under the car. Plus this thing isn't an add-on it's an entirely new piece that reshapes the fascia.

 

Obviously I read it differently. Not a surprise. We typically read the rules differently

 

The increased downforce is result of installing a +3 part. The design of the beard is not designed to create downward force.

 

Time will tell what Greg decides and he informs us of his intent while writing the rule.

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wlfpkrcn1

The nice thing about SCCA is they have definition of terms in their CCR.

 

Aerodynamic Device – An attachment to, or an integral part of, a car

intended to generate atmospheric downforce by the action of air flowing

through or around the attachment.

 

Aerodynamic Skirts – Body panels, movable or fixed, at the bottom of

the sides of a car’s body, which aid in the creation of “ground effects”

 

Air Dam – An air control device at the lower front of a car, intended to

divert some of the air which would normally pass under the car when the

car is in motion.

 

Airfoil – An aerodynamic device or part of a car which the flow of air over

its surface will generate a vertical force by creating a pressure differential

between top and bottom surfaces.

 

Body – All parts of the car licked by the air stream and situated above the

belly / floor with exception of the roll bar or cage. For Formula and Sports

Racing cars, further exceptions are those units definitely associated with

the function of the engine or transmission.

 

Bumper – A semi-rigid attachment to the structure of a car at the front

or rear, which is intended to absorb a portion of low speed front or rear

collision forces.

 

Canard – A near-horizontal aerodynamic device normally mounted at the

extreme front of a (race) car.

 

Fairing – A covering intended to divert airflow in a specific region of a car,

to reduce air drag.

 

Fender – The body panel covering a road wheel assembly.

 

Fender Flare – An attachment to an existing fender which extends the

fender outward so as to more completely cover the tire within.

 

Flat Bottom – A race car construction in which the underside of the car is

nominally flat and contains no “ground effects” shaping or ducting.

Flat Plate Intake Restrictor – a metal plate through which all engine

combustion chamber air (and possibly fuel) must pass. Unless otherwise

specified in a category, class or individual engine specification, all flat

plate restrictors must meet the following requirements (more than one

plate may be required in some applications; each shall meet the requirements):

• The restrictor shall be made from flat steel or aluminum sheet at

least 0.060 inches thick.

• The hole through which all air to the engine must pass shall be

round, centered with respect to the throttle body bore or carburetor

bore or intake manifold bore to which it is attached; no radiusing,

chamfering or beveling of the hole is permitted.

• The restrictor plate must be located between the throttle body or

carburetor and the engine within 4 inches of the centerline of the

carburetor or fuel injection butterfly.

• A steel or aluminum spacer no more than 0.75 inch thick may be

placed between the throttle body or carburetor and the restrictor

to allow for clearance of the butterfly. The hole must be the same

shape and size as the throttle body or carburetor flange; no radiusing,

chamfering or beveling of the hole is permitted.

• The restrictor plate shall be mounted on the bolts or studs used to

locate the throttle body or carburetor. There shall be no movement

of the restrictor plate possible when mounted.

Fender Skirt – A removable fender extension which partially closes the

wheel opening, smoothing the air flow in this region.

 

Floor Pan – The section(s) of a car normally used as a supporting platform

for seats and to physically separate the interior (cockpit) area from the

underside of the car.

 

Grille – The decorative covering for the grille opening.

 

Grille Opening – The opening in the front of a car, through which cooling

air is ducted to the radiator(s), and in some cases, to other accessories,

or to the engine.

 

Ground Effects – A term for a car design in which airflow produces a

significant pressure differential between the upper and lower portions of

the body/chassis, creating downforce on the assembly.

 

Spoiler – A panel attached to the body of a car at the front or rear,

intended to alter the airflow around or under that end of the car when in

motion.

 

Undertray (Belly Pan) – An attachment to the underside of a car intended

to smooth airflow and/or to offer driver protection in this region of the car.

 

Valance – Bodywork welded or bolted to the cars body/structure, at the

front or rear of a car, normally but not always located behind and/or

below the bumper.

 

Wing – An aerodynamic attachment to the structure of a car specifically

intended to generate downforce from the action of air flowing over the

upper and lower surfaces, creating a pressure differential.

 

Finally found one for fascia-

 

Fascia (car) - Definition

 

Confusingly, fascia is used for two completely different things in the automotive world.

 

In British English, a car's fascia is its instrument panel and dashboard area - what lies in front of the driver and front-seat passenger. It is used primarily in enthusiast and specialist circles.

 

In recent American English usage, a car's fascia is its front-end "look" - grille, headlamps, front bumper, and other details. This area is possibly the most critical in defining a car's identifiable look, and is also the easiest to restyle when a car's styling needs to be refreshed. Again, this word is mostly being used by the auto trade and automotive journalists.

Edited by Guest

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awdracer

Yep, we see things differently from time to time. That's cool.

 

The only thing that I have to add is that (IMHO), when the air dam continues above the "chin" of the car and to the fascia then it has to be included in the fascia.

 

The other argument is that this part reshapes the fascia....which would be +2 anyway. That's the "Hey I have to take points for duct tape" argument

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mbuskuhl
.... if it doesn't say you can't, then you can.

 

Might want to read the rules again. This part is even underlined in the CCR.

 

If a performance modification is not specifically allowed by the rules, it is prohibited.

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Markus
FWIW, here are a couple of alternative Miata air dam designs from ISC Racing: http://www.iscracing.net/miata_fiberglass.html

 

ISC Racing makes several different front air dams, mostly geared towards SCCA ITA class Miatas. But note if you scroll down the page they offer this one:

 

Plastic Air Dam - We had several clients asking about a flat air dam for NASA events. Here it is! Bottom is re-enforced with Aluminum Strip

 

MVC-008S.JPG

 

Alas it is like the Amish Beard in that it really isn't a thing of beauty, but it hangs straight down to fit the NASA rules and supposedly also offers some good benefits. I just bought and installed this on my car last month in order to be in compliance with the NASA TT/PT rules. If the Amish Beard is assigned the same +3 as this one, would I switch now? I don't know. But - it does seem that the Beard one would offer some additional benefits.

 

FYI, here is another picture of the ISC Racing air dam in use on a NASA PT/TT car out in Cali I believe:

 

JT808_miata_02_.jpg

 

Later,

- Mark

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awdracer

Mark, it seems to me that NASA needs to separate or define "air dam" and "fascia".

 

The problem I have with the beard is that it extended up into the fascia AND extended forward.

 

Yours is more in line with what I would consider an air dam but it too reshapes the fascia. I like the part you created. It's not as pretty as Da Beard but it should be very effective.

 

The problem is that NASA separates "air dam" and "fascia" for a separate points assessment. With that in mind it wouldn't seem logical to be allowed to reshape the fascia with an air dam.

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smokinjoe

Its a 8pt mod.. ask me why I know!

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Joshua

OK, I'll bite. How does that add up to 8 pts?

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RockLobster

3+3+2 = 8

 

Yes, i can be a smartass sometimes....

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awdracer
Its a 8pt mod.. ask me why I know!

 

Are you referring to the Beard or the ISC air dam?

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RockLobster

G.1, G.2, and G.4 are terribly written rules. They are not mutually exclusive as it appears they were intended to be. There is no hard definition of the terms referenced. All 3 rules are entirely subjective in nature, and ambiguous in practice.

 

We have stayed completely away from aero mods for the reasons listed above.

 

Basically any major change like that one, that both modifies the facia, extends below and wider than the chin of the cars stock profile and has surfaces in both areas that are not vertical ends up taking 8 points in practice...

 

Only our ST cars run aero like that.

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hustler

From another forum, cross-post worthy:

From an aero design standpoint it is really good that it extends past the front bumper. I think it will sell well in both NA and NB versions. As stated before' date=' it does look like it has a beard. It reminds me of Air Israel from the movie Airplane!

[img']http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcwjcg7Lv01qz8ahfo1_500.png[/img]

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Markus

I realize the NASA officials are volunteers, but this post is a week old. It would be nice to have an "official" reply in here, even if it is something like "we are reviewing this, will have an answer in x days".

 

I'm in Ohio and our first event is in two weeks, which means the rest of teh country has probably already done 3 events.......

 

- Mark

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wlfpkrcn1

I suspect Greg is working on it. Remember he needs to get everybodies dyno classes done before their events. I'm not sure but I would think it is more important to get competitors classed first, then deal with rule clarifications

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D_Eclipse9916
I realize the NASA officials are volunteers, but this post is a week old. It would be nice to have an "official" reply in here, even if it is something like "we are reviewing this, will have an answer in x days".

 

I'm in Ohio and our first event is in two weeks, which means the rest of teh country has probably already done 3 events.......

 

- Mark

 

Have you emailed him? The forum is not the official way to request rules clarifications. I have emailed Greg and got fairly quick (within the day) responses for all my questions.

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Cobra4B
Have you emailed him? The forum is not the official way to request rules clarifications. I have emailed Greg and got fairly quick (within the day) responses for all my questions.

This.... emailing Greg is the way to go. He replied to my questions on header wrap very quickly and ammended the rules for TT so that I could run my "poor-man's" transmission cooler on my car w/o taking points.

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TurboShortBus

I suggested directly emailing Greg to the OP, but by the time I sent that email to him, this thread had already been started.

 

Mark

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Joshua
Greg has all the images and specifications. Hopefully, we can simply homologate the design and be done with it.

Since the vender has contacted Greg directly about this air dam, I thought it best to not add to Greg's Inbox with a redundant query. For now, I'm just waiting, and will update this thread when I have an official word. Greg sometimes posts to this forum where new information is directly shared to active participants, so that may happen too.

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Cobra4B
I suggested directly emailing Greg to the OP, but by the time I sent that email to him, this thread had already been started.

 

Mark

Here's a cookie

 

Best_Cookie-20.jpg

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TurboShortBus

Here's a cookie

I thought better than to use my moderator privileges to shut the thread down before it spiraled out of control like the 30+ page S2000 hardtop thread did, but I didn't want to deprive you guys of thread creep and related shenanigans.

 

Since this topic was already sent directly to Greg, the solicitation of unofficial opinions and commentary via this thread won't do much good, but some people like to get involved.

 

Mark

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Cobra4B

Here's a cookie

I thought better than to use my moderator privileges to shut the thread down before it spiraled out of control like the 30+ page S2000 hardtop thread did, but I didn't want to deprive you guys of thread creep and related shenanigans.

 

Since this topic was already sent directly to Greg, the solicitation of unofficial opinions and commentary via this thread won't do much good, but some people like to get involved.

 

Mark

Thank you... 30+ page out of control threads are good for workday entertainment

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Shawn M.

cookie.jpg

 

Mnnn cookie.....

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obzezzed350

^ What he said...

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