Toyo Tire Shortage... What to do.

[sundialracing]

I am upset that we would ever consider going back to Toyo..

 

Old tires (my "brand new" set has a 07 date code), expensive even before shaving, spotty dealer network, suck ass grip, supply issues(even before the events in Japan), having to throw away a weekend or test session to make them "good", non spec American tire for American Iron class, Toyo bucks(need I say more).....

 

How many times do you have to catch your wife bangin' the pool boy before you kick her to the curb????

 

The AI guys that I talked to at Mid-Ohio were really excited about the new tire situation, especially the Purple Crack contingency...

 

Our word as racers should carry some weight in the decision, why not put it to a vote right here on the forum?

 

One last question,

 

What makes a Toyo 18" RA1 so much more expensive than BFG, Hoosier or Goodyear???

[supermac]

TJ,

I heard you guys had a race this weekend, what did you guys do with the tire situation?

How did you fare?

Cody Powell

[Burnett]

At the Mid O race 6 of us had Toyos 3 didn't and ran ST2 on the Hoosiers. I thought the big question would be which tire to run for the year but I was wrong. The question is what tire will be the "spec" tire for the Nationals. Until I read Todd's note today I never considered that a spec tire would be used at the championship after a season of "open tire". Even if the new spec tire were FREE at the Nationals (which it should be) what is the set up?

 

I understand that a lot of data can be gathered before the nationals but will everybody get it or even be able to use it so quickly?

 

Also, if I think that Toyo is coming back then I want to keep my old tires (and the new ones I ordered) and not sell them to the CMC2 guys. This is going to cause a shortage for them and make the problem bigger. Some of these items need to be covered soon.

 

If the Nitto is available and is an ra1 in disguise lets use it. Tire consistancy and longevity far out weigh grip in a series like ours.

 

my 2 cents

Robin

[nape]

Cody, I didn't run Mid-O, but I'm running Autobahn CC this week. I agree with Robin's comments, especially that the spec tire should be free if we're going to go from open tire to spec tire before Nats. I don't care if we're on BFG Radial T/As as long as we're all on the same tire and they last a long time. If I have to buy a new set of Hoosiers every weekend to be competitive vs. the guy who can afford to just throw tires at it, my car will seriously be for sale.

 

If you want to throw tires at the car to make it fast, NASA already has classes that are happy on the purple crack.

 

And for the comment that no one wants to hear: If you're 2 seconds/lap slow on Toyos, you're going to be 2 seconds/lap slow on Hoosiers. Tires aren't magically going to level the playing field if you're not doing as much homework as the guy standing on the top step at the end of the day.

[robbodleimages]

tj. i think most of us know that if i am middle of the pack on toyos that i will be middle of the pack whateve the tires might be.

 

i think you make a great point about homework. you've done yours for the toyo. if you didnt have those toyos and had to run another tire because you couldnt get toyos, you would be forced to do more homework because whichever new tire you chose a new setup and new line and maybe driving adjustments would be required. whoever is forced to change is stuck with that extra workload.

 

as to the spec tire issue. it would be a pure class disaster if drivers found that they had to change tires and bought enough tires to race and worked up a new set up for the new rubber and then found out 30 days before the nationals that a third tire would be required to race nationals. that would be pure nuts.

[D Algozine]

This race season and Nationals should be RA1's and one alternate tire. The tire should closely match the characteristics of the RA1. That way racers who already have RA1's can use them and/or racers who need rubber can purchase the new alternate spec tire. If a weight penalty is needed to keep it equal, then it should be done, as best as possible. Track records should only be allowed on RA1's, unless the alternate tire becomes the the new spec tire in the future.

The more choices of tires, the more problems, and more frustratioin. Which leads to staying away to avoid the BS. It's a spec tire class, don't change it because of outside problems.

 

One last point. This new alternate tire needs to be available in the quantities required for the whole season. Hence, the discussions with said tire company to get a commitment.

[robbodleimages]

reality check. spec tire means a tire company is paying nasa for that position and the monopoly that it guarantees. this is why toyo has tanked its contigency program because its customers have to buy the tire. if hoosier or bfg or goodyear or yokahama or whoever dont agree to pay for the spec tire rights, nasa is not going to award them to anyone.

 

in this economy i am not thinking there's a lot of money in the budget to pay nasa for something like that.

[nape]

reality check. spec tire means a tire company is paying nasa for that position and the monopoly that it guarantees. this is why toyo has tanked its contigency program because its customers have to buy the tire.

 

Reality check, most grassroots racers who are the backbone of the series want to be on one tire, whether NASA is getting paid or not, to take that variable out of the equation. Talk to guys who have come from multi-tire classes in other organizations and there is always a top tire. If you aren't on that tire deal, then you might as well be going backwards.

 

I ran 8 events last year on one new set of 18s, about (6) 17 scuffs, and a set of scuff rains and the 18s and rains are still usable. The contingency doesn't have to be as good if the tires last 3-4x as long and Toyo contingency isn't bad if you haven't pigeon holed yourself by only being able to run 18s. Then, when the contingency isn't paying out well (<5 cars), run whatever old crap tires that say RA1 on them. I ran some 2003 date code tires last year just trying to burn through old scuffs that other racers were getting rid of and they were still fast enough to run up front.

 

I don't have exact numbers, but there should be plenty of ways to make the season on Toyos. 265/35/18 R888s are damn near the same tire as the 275/35/18s and they work fine on the rear of the car. During the 2009 two tire deal, I'd run RA1s on the front and R888s on the rear because the R888s didn't get overworked on the rear like they did the front and you could buy R888 World Challenge 265 scuffs for $60/tire. They make a 275/40/18 R888 too that would be legal by the rules (1" taller). I never got a chance to try it, but I figured it could be the hot ticket on the rear.

 

I also don't see how we can't get enough R888s that were allowed earlier in the season. IIRC, the R888 is made in the USA and shouldn't be affected by the Japanese disaster.

[robbodleimages]

* I was just saying the drivers dont have any control over this.

 

* Would you trade your RA1's for R888's?

 

* Would you trade your 275's for 265's?

[nape]

* I was just saying the drivers dont have any control over this.

 

* Would you trade your RA1's for R888's?

 

* Would you trade your 275's for 265's?

 

That's part of my point, the driver's should and do have control over the series. Don't like the series, don't run! The Rocky Mountain AI guys are doing just this. Just like politics except you get to vote with your wallet.

 

I wouldn't trade them because I won them, planned early, and ordered them early. However, when push came to shove, I ran 265 R888s.

 

Here's a little guessing game:

 

-Who else ran 265 R888s in 2009? I'll give you a hint, he's a two-time AI National Champion.

-What tire was Dean Martin leading with at the 2009 National Championships until he wrecked? 275 R888

-Which tire is better in the rain because it keeps the tire nice and cool? R888

-Which tire is ultimately faster? R888

-Which tire can most people not drive fast on because you have to change your driving style? R888

[Red Tornado]

Please just pick a US tire that will be available and offers good contigency.

 

Run that tire all year and nationals.

 

I forgot who said it but yes I am sick of my wife screwing the pool boy!!!

Let's get us some real tires or we will become a sea of ST2 cars and be asking for ST3. 9.5 to 1... haha

[svttim]

Assuming I get through comp school, I will be running at autobahn. But, Ill be running St2. Slowly albiet but running the same. As someone who is new, I have to agree that I dont care what tire they pick. I would prefer an American tire in an American series but...... I have runn 888's and have not have been slowed by them. I agree with Nape 100%

What drives me nuts is not knowing what tire to by, where or if you you can even buy them.

[nape]

Let's get us some real tires or we will become a sea of ST2 cars and be asking for ST3. 9.5 to 1... haha

 

I really think that tires that heat cycle out quickly will send a lot of cars back to CMC2 if they can do it. I don't see how we can call this grassroots racing if we're looking at $4000-6000/year tire budgets, and that's making the tires last 3 weekends.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I ran 8 events last year on ~$6000 and that included everything: entry fees, tires, pads, rotors, fluids, fuel for the car, fuel for the tow rig (biggest - $1500), cost of stuff that broke, getting the trans freshened.

 

Everyone has been complaining about the high cost of 275/35/18 RA1s, about $375/tire with shaving. A 275/35/18 Hoosier R6 is $315/tire according to their 2011 price list. So, a difference of ~$240 set.

 

I'll bet the guys complaining about 18" tires haven't ever thought to look at the price comparison on 17" tires though.

 

A 275/40/17 RA1 is about $230/tire with shaving. However, a 275/40/17 Hoosier R6 is listed at $294/tire. So, that's about a $250/set increase for a tire that lasts half as long (or less)!

 

So, for the guys complaining about 18" tires to get cheaper tires, the guys running 17s have to eat a 25% price increase!

 

2011 Hoosier Price List (might have to right-click, save as): http://www.hoosiertire.com/pdfs/pricescr.pdf

 

I shouldn't be complaining. I'm in the right spot to come out of this deal winning more tires with Hoosier contingency then I have been with Toyo, but I have a feeling it's going to hurt the car counts in the long run. Who wants to race when the leader is on 4 new tires he won last month and you've been on the same tires for 4 events (and the tires actually get slower instead of faster)?

[robbodleimages]

I'll bet the guys complaining about 18" tires haven't ever thought to look at the price comparison on 17" tires though.

 

A 275/40/17 RA1 is about $230/tire with shaving. However, a 275/40/17 Hoosier R6 is listed at $294/tire. So, that's about a $250/set increase for a tire that lasts half as long (or less)!

 

TJ, we've had this conversation before and I am surprised that you don't remember it. My main complaint with the Toyo has been the cost of the 18 IN COMPARISON to the cost of the 17. My car calls for 18's. My brakes call for 18's. The 17" Toyo is significantly cheaper than the Hoosier or BFG. For a spec tire that is the way it should be. It also makes up a little for weak contigency program. The 18" Toyo is significantly MORE expensive than the 18" Hoosier or BFG. WFT! Thats not the way the spec program is supposed to work. I am forced to buy the most expensive tires in the marketplace with crappy contingencies too.

 

Thats not right. If this is spec tire racing the cost of tires shouldnt be a penalty like that.

 

BTW...I am impressed that you run your 8 event season on $6k. I could not haul my car to 8 events including the nationals and stay in an $80 a night hotel this year for $6k. Thats before I turn a wheel.

[Grizlbits]

TJ is THE master of getting a lot from only a little.

[svttim]

Cost is a mute point unless availability changes. This is a no win situation. If your the new guy, trying to get into the class, you cant find decent tires at a decent cost. They open the class to all R compound tires, then wait, maybe not or, penalties may be imposed. So you wait until they make a decision but, you cant wait so you move to ST2. Not good for car count.

 

If youve been around and have a garage full of Toyo's, you now face competing against people on much faster tires, weight penalty or not. You were vigilant and have a good stock and maybe feel like you are being cheated becasue you followed the rules.

 

If your NASA, whatever you do is bound to piss someone off!

 

What a mess

[wstukas]

TJ, we've had this conversation before and I am surprised that you don't remember it. My main complaint with the Toyo has been the cost of the 18 IN COMPARISON to the cost of the 17. My car calls for 18's. My brakes call for 18's. The 17" Toyo is significantly cheaper than the Hoosier or BFG. For a spec tire that is the way it should be. It also makes up a little for weak contigency program. The 18" Toyo is significantly MORE expensive than the 18" Hoosier or BFG. WFT! Thats not the way the spec program is supposed to work. I am forced to buy the most expensive tires in the marketplace with crappy contingencies too.

 

Thats not right. If this is spec tire racing the cost of tires shouldnt be a penalty like that.

 

BTW...I am impressed that you run your 8 event season on $6k. I could not haul my car to 8 events including the nationals and stay in an $80 a night hotel this year for $6k. Thats before I turn a wheel.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but why can't you run brake setup that allows a 17" wheel? A 13" rotor is plenty capable of stopping these cars.

 

I purposly built a 4 pot Brembo brake setup to fit under 17" wheels based on tire cost alone! I'm on a 12.8 inch rotor and feel I actually have an advantage under braking.

 

I've seen S197's on 17's, so SN95's should be able to do it too...right? And remember, the smallest diameter rotor that can properly dissipate heat will stop the quickest...everytime.

[QUASAR]

Who wants to race when the leader is on 4 new tires he won last month and you've been on the same tires for 4 events (and the tires actually get slower instead of faster)?

 

bingo.

 

 

The first part of this deal is making sure we're collecting the right info and data when making this choice. There seems to be conflicting information depending on who you ask. 5 guys will say a hoosier steadily drops off with each cycle and 3 guys say it's fast on the first cycle then drops off a little and maintains for the rest of its life. I don't know the answer but we have to siff thru all the crap and hearsay to pick the best option.

 

In the end there is a shortage and we have to deal with it for the time being. But in the long run if AI ends up with a tire that proves to be inconsistent with only a select few collecting fresh ones every weekend... car counts go down.

[Sidney]

Who wants to race when the leader is on 4 new tires he won last month and you've been on the same tires for 4 events (and the tires actually get slower instead of faster)?

 

bingo.

 

 

The first part of this deal is making sure we're collecting the right info and data when making this choice. There seems to be conflicting information depending on who you ask. 5 guys will say a hoosier steadily drops off with each cycle and 3 guys say it's fast on the first cycle then drops off a little and maintains for the rest of its life. I don't know the answer but we have to siff thru all the crap and hearsay to pick the best option.

 

In the end there is a shortage and we have to deal with it for the time being. But in the long run if AI ends up with a tire that proves to be inconsistent with only a select few collecting fresh ones every weekend... car counts go down.

 

Last time I was at the SCCA Runoffs...Andy McDermid had stacks of Hoosiers next to his toter and went out on Stickers every session. Last time I was at the NASA Nationals...Jay Andrew & Robbin Burnett DID NOT have stacks of sticker Toyo's!

 

You guys do not want to go down that road!

 

Sidney

CMC2 #64

[sundialracing]

Who wants to race when the leader is on 4 new tires he won last month and you've been on the same tires for 4 events (and the tires actually get slower instead of faster)?

 

bingo.

 

 

The first part of this deal is making sure we're collecting the right info and data when making this choice. There seems to be conflicting information depending on who you ask. 5 guys will say a hoosier steadily drops off with each cycle and 3 guys say it's fast on the first cycle then drops off a little and maintains for the rest of its life. I don't know the answer but we have to siff thru all the crap and hearsay to pick the best option.

 

In the end there is a shortage and we have to deal with it for the time being. But in the long run if AI ends up with a tire that proves to be inconsistent with only a select few collecting fresh ones every weekend... car counts go down.

 

Last time I was at the SCCA Runoffs...Andy McDermid had stacks of Hoosiers next to his toter and went out on Stickers every session. Last time I was at the NASA Nationals...Jay Andrew & Robbin Burnett DID NOT have stacks of sticker Toyo's!

 

You guys do not want to go down that road!

 

Sidney

CMC2 #64

 

Relax.....

 

Like all of the Hoosier contract guys at the Runoffs Andy was on A compound. When you get 30 SETS of tires a year you can afford to go out on stickers for every session.

[nape]

Thats not right. If this is spec tire racing the cost of tires shouldnt be a penalty like that.

 

BTW...I am impressed that you run your 8 event season on $6k. I could not haul my car to 8 events including the nationals and stay in an $80 a night hotel this year for $6k. Thats before I turn a wheel.

 

A spec tire is supposed to equalize the field. Ask the WC GTS guys how much a Pirelli is costing them ($455/tire in 275/645/18) and what the contingency is like (zilch).

 

Thanks, but who can afford creature comforts like staying in a hotel? I sleep in the trailer with a piece of old carpet on the floor and a sleeping bag. Above 75*, run a 2' box fan to keep cool. Under 60*, run a 1500w space heater.

[robbodleimages]

Forgive my ignorance, but why can't you run brake setup that allows a 17" wheel? A 13" rotor is plenty capable of stopping these cars.

 

I purposly built a 4 pot Brembo brake setup to fit under 17" wheels based on tire cost alone! I'm on a 12.8 inch rotor and feel I actually have an advantage under braking.

 

I've seen S197's on 17's, so SN95's should be able to do it too...right? And remember, the smallest diameter rotor that can properly dissipate heat will stop the quickest...everytime.

 

I have an FR500C. It came with 14" brakes and spares. S197's can come with 13" brakes, but til recently you had to reengineer the mounting to make it work. Yes Ive seen Robin's S197 with 17" wheels, but he was able to get some corvette wheels specially cut to mount on his mustang. They were not available over the counter. IF you wanted to buy an off the shelf track wheel for that car, it was an 18".

 

Like so many other things in this long running Ford Racing is killing AI argument, if its engineered for that car it shouldnt be allowed.

 

I know Robin and Steve Poe have built their cars from BIW's and they can do whatever they like. They can put a pushrod motor and a 4speed transmission if they want to.

 

I am not a car builder. I am not comfortable or have the budget to pay somebody to turn my perfectly good racing car inside out. IF that means, I should race ST2, so be it.

 

Just the same. The factory track wheels for Mustangs are 18". They come with Brembo 14" brakes. I should not have to pay $150 more per tire to have the spec tires for this series. $600 more per set.

[robbodleimages]

Thats not right. If this is spec tire racing the cost of tires shouldnt be a penalty like that.

 

BTW...I am impressed that you run your 8 event season on $6k. I could not haul my car to 8 events including the nationals and stay in an $80 a night hotel this year for $6k. Thats before I turn a wheel.

 

A spec tire is supposed to equalize the field. Ask the WC GTS guys how much a Pirelli is costing them ($455/tire in 275/645/18) and what the contingency is like (zilch).

 

Thanks, but who can afford creature comforts like staying in a hotel? I sleep in the trailer with a piece of old carpet on the floor and a sleeping bag. Above 75*, run a 2' box fan to keep cool. Under 60*, run a 1500w space heater.

 

Its $1 to $1 with the Pzeros. They all run the same size tire. They all pay the same price. The guys in the Mustang are not paying $600 per set more than the guys in the Acuras.

[nape]

Relax.....

 

Like all of the Hoosier contract guys at the Runoffs Andy was on A compound. When you get 30 SETS of tires a year you can afford to go out on stickers for every session.

 

Sooo... how long before there's an AI car with a Hoosier contract?

 

Anyone else see a slippery slope?

[nape]

I am not a car builder. I am not comfortable or have the budget to pay somebody to turn my perfectly good racing car inside out. IF that means, I should race ST2, so be it.

 

Just the same. The factory track wheels for Mustangs are 18". They come with Brembo 14" brakes. I should not have to pay $150 more per tire to have the spec tires for this series. $600 more per set.

 

Have you even run an AI race yet? You complained to the AS guys for 2-3 years about your T1 car and gave up. I think we're around the 2 year mark on your FR500C and the only thing holding you back is tires. If we end up on Hoosiers, are you not going to race because now you have a Goodyear deal?